Evidence for God from Science

Philip wrote:OK, so if we follow B.W.'s reasoning that tongues are not common - practiced by only a tiny minority of vast Christian Church - and that this is merely due to How God chose to parse them out - well, that presents a dilemma for the vast majority of Christians who do not speak in tongues or are very wary of them.

Emphasis added. As I pointed out yesterday, leaving room for clarification (or a subsequent clearer statement), 26.7% of all who say they are Christian may be a minority, but it isn't tiny. I took,

B. W. wrote:1 Co 12:11, But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills. NASB

May having something to do with it ...

to be pointing to a (Scripturally sufficient) reason, not the sole reason for uneven distribution of the gift of speaking in tongues. "May having something to do with it ... is rather tongue in cheek (BTDTGTTS), but it also leaves open the possibility of multiple causes for what you perceive as a possibly fatal anomaly for those who believe God still uses speaking in tongues. As I pointed out last evening, two other reasons are that many Christians reject - i.e. their choice - the gift of speaking in tongues, and that many others simply lack knowledge of this aspect of the Scriptures.

Philip wrote:How would one without this gift, whom has never spoken in tongues, when encountering one speaking them - how would that Christian know that the tongues are authentic and God-given? Or if there is an interpreter - same problem - how do we KNOW that the tongues or their interpretations are of the Lord?

Wow! where have I heard something like that before? Oh yeah! I posted back on December 15th:

Over all, 1 Corinthians 14 – along with Ephesians 5:18-19 and Colossians 3:16 – describes a “church service” very different from what is currently done every Sunday in most Christian churches. Whether a Catholic church celebrating mass with much the same liturgy as has been used for many centuries or a simpler Evangelical-Fundamentalist church service featuring several hymns, a sermon, plus announcements, all have some things in common: the leader(s) plan and implement what happens; the congregation is partly audience, partly participant, doing what the leader(s) have planned. Sometimes I wonder if the Holy Spirit would be unable to work in many/most modern churches, for lack of room! In the kind of “church service” Paul described, any and every believer might on any day be a “worship leader”, a teacher, prophesying, praying for some need, with the Holy Spirit leading and the leaders of the congregation overseeing to ensure things didn't get out of order and teachings didn't contradict Scripture. I wonder whether a believer raised with modern leader-audience “church services” would even recognize the leadership of the Holy Spirit, orderliness, and ministry happening in the believers' assemblies Paul knew.[/b]

Emphasis added.

But returning, to some degree, to your point:

At times I think that the chapter-and-verse reference system – not part of the original texts – that aids in referring to and finding specific Scriptures – can be distracting or misleading. It is visually tempting to perceive each verse in 1 Thessalonians 5:16-22 as a separate and distinct statement. While Paul was winding up his letter, giving brief instructions, they are interconnected, forming a unified context. Thus, the instruction not to quench the Spirit is linked to the instructions not to despise prophecies and to think about such prophecies and retain what is good. Taking these verses from 1 Thessalonians 5 together, four things are worth pointing out. ... Second, despising prophecy would have the effect of quenching the work of the Holy Spirit. Besides discouraging prophecies, it would also tend to hinder the expression of other Spiritual gifts and the work of the Holy Spirit in the congregation, generally. Third, utterances purporting to be prophecies were to be considered carefully and judged. These are the two errant extremes: reflexive rejection; credulous acceptance. Persons “prophesying” could be mistaken (or worse, of course); what was done in such a case, beyond rejecting the message, is not mentioned (a prophet judged to have been mistaken or wrong would not, of course, have been killed, as in the Old Testament). My guess is that the character and severity of the mistake/error and the character of the person would have been key considerations in what would be done. Fourth, a prophecy judged to be true prophecy was to be treated as very important (though not as Scripture, as I pointed out above).

I guess you didn't see my two posts from 3 weeks before your post to which I'm responding? Ultimately, your question is the same "problem" the church at Corinth (and, obviously, every congregation in the Christian church of the time). But were uncertainty and the possibility of mistaken judgment arguments against at all accepting speak in tongues as a valid spiritual gift, Paul would not have discussed at such length proper usage of the gift. He would have said, "You can't be certain, it may be dangerous, so just don't!" Except not as laconically .

Philip wrote:Also, unless needed to break a communications barrier between people of different languages, as for a immediately needed witnessing tool, what are their purposes, if one can't understand them or can't be certain of either their origins, meanings and purpose. Unless giving a prophetic interpretation so specific that it can be totally validated as being from God, I can't see their purpose.

That you don't understand God's purpose(s) is not a valid argument that God did/does not do something. Scripture clearly states that speaking in tongues is a gift of the Holy Spirit. Your or my understanding the purpose thereof doesn't change that fact. My speculation is that it may be a reminder that we humans are not in control in this world, and that we must rely on and trust God, generally, and especially in matters spiritual.

I see these snake-handling pastors on TV (maybe not a good representation for authenticity) begin babbling (supposedly in tongues) as they pray over a rattlesnake bite victim. And my spiritual radar goes off at full alert. Of course, these are people putting God to wrongful, foolish tests per the tacked on verses at the end of Mark. Again, maybe not a fair representation of tongue speakers.

Gee, why did I know this would be dredged up? But if you sort of concede, "maybe not a good representation for authenticity," and, "maybe not a fair representation of tongue speakers," why bring up the snake-handlers at all? To put it mildly, this is a very unpleasant tactic, and not very honest! And these three sentences are about as much dignity as your statement merits!

RickD wrote:Pete,

I see Philip's point. If tongues is a gift in place now, then why is it a gift given by God, only to believers in a certain few denominations?

For example, the following gifts are given to believers regardless of if they are affiliated with a denomination or not:

Administration / Ruling
Encouraging / Exhorting
Giving
Serving / Ministry
Showing Mercy
Teaching

Why are believers in only certain "charismatic" denominations, the ones who claim the gift of tongues?

The answer is simple, they don't browbeat and demand that you cannot speak in unknown tongues and must submit to the non-gifting cultural norm of intellectual 'only' Christendom. They are open to the Holy Spirit and are will to learn, be chastised, and live by God's grace.

Point and principle of this can be uncovered in Matthew 14. Whem Jesus walked on water, only one person asked to get out of the boat (Peter) while the others stayed in. Peter saw the circumstances, his faith shrank, and he begin to sink, yet, Jesus, was a hand grasp length away, and rescued Peter. They got back into the boat and the 13 of them made it to the shore. Prior to this, Jesus gave the command for all to get into the boat and travel to the other shore, and the wind of God kicked up against self effort. Jesus stayed behind, and he later walked out to the boat in its trouble. Often, the Lord likes to see who will ask if they can walk on water. Likewise, in regard to the gifts, people are shocked at seeing how really real Jesus really is. The majority stay in the boat and a few folk, ask, If it is you, Lord, bid me to come. They take a step out of the boat walking on the promise of God. Then the storm gets their attention and they begin to sink as 1 Co 13:1-3 states. Amazingly, Jesus, just a hands grasp away reaches out to rescues them so all make it to the far shore, together.

This principle can be applied to the gifts of the Holy Spirit as well too. Remember that we are all in the same boat, the Church universal, some will ask to step out, others will not. So the question for us all is this, are we asking to step out or do our answers and reasoning reveal fear of the storm if we do? Not all folks have the same giftings. More folks would share in the language gifts, but only Christ Jesus can calm the storm. Each of the gifts of the Spirit are still valid today and each member of the Church is part of the same team. It is the Lord who gives to each as he so wills - not as we so will. Sadly, many so will that he keeps His gifts to himself.

I say the true gifts of the Holy Spirit are designed with team work in mind, It is the Lord's gifts, not ours, he empowers us as He so wills, to his task as a team. 1 Co 12 thru 14 speaks of this principle in admonishments and instruction. What I am hearing from the anti-you-can't-do-this crowd is that they have no need of other members of the boat, unless they agree with sitting comfortably adrift in the stormy sea of nations. What is the difference between that attitude with those that say that all must speak in unknown langues? Not much. 1 Co 13:1 is true. and so is 1 Co 13:2 and 1 Co 13:3 regarding doctrines of faith, wisdom, knowledge, and all administrating of good works.

All I can say or add here: Let the Lord be the Lord of the Church and ask him to give you the word to get out of the boat. Be willing to learn, be chastised, grow in personal faith in him, so we all make it to the far shore together.
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RickD wrote:
Why are believers in only certain "charismatic" denominations, the ones who claim the gift of tongues?

B. W. wrote:
The answer is simple, they don't browbeat and demand that you cannot speak in unknown tongues and must submit to the non-gifting cultural norm of intellectual 'only' Christendom. They are open to the Holy Spirit and are will to learn, be chastised, and live by God's grace.

Bryan,
That's making an assumption, which I believe is unwarranted, that those who don't speak in tongues, aren't "open to the Holy Spirit".

That to me is just an insult. You're basically saying that because I don't speak in tongues, I'm not open to the HS.

I believe jlay mentioned that he prayed to God that if tongues are from Him, that He would give him the gift. And, I also did the same myself. I got nothing. So that says what to me? It says either tongues isn't from God, or, if tongues is from God, then He didn't want to give me that gift. Why would He ask us to seek these gifts if we did, then He just wouldn't give them to us?

B. W. wrote:
Point and principle of this can be uncovered in Matthew 14. Whem Jesus walked on water, only one person asked to get out of the boat (Peter) while the others stayed in. Peter saw the circumstances, his faith shrank, and he begin to sink, yet, Jesus, was a hand grasp length away, and rescued Peter. They got back into the boat and the 13 of them made it to the shore. Prior to this, Jesus gave the command for all to get into the boat and travel to the other shore, and the wind of God kicked up against self effort. Jesus stayed behind, and he later walked out to the boat in its trouble. Often, the Lord likes to see who will ask if they can walk on water. Likewise, in regard to the gifts, people are shocked at seeing how really real Jesus really is. The majority stay in the boat and a few folk, ask, If it is you, Lord, bid me to come. They take a step out of the boat walking on the promise of God. Then the storm gets their attention and they begin to sink as 1 Co 13:1-3 states. Amazingly, Jesus, just a hands grasp away reaches out to rescues them so all make it to the far shore, together.

This principle can be applied to the gifts of the Holy Spirit as well too. Remember that we are all in the same boat, the Church universal, some will ask to step out, others will not. So the question for us all is this, are we asking to step out or do our answers and reasoning reveal fear of the storm if we do? Not all folks have the same giftings. More folks would share in the language gifts, but only Christ Jesus can calm the storm. Each of the gifts of the Spirit are still valid today and each member of the Church is part of the same team. It is the Lord who gives to each as he so wills - not as we so will. Sadly, many so will that he keeps His gifts to himself.

Now this almost sounds like you're saying that I and others who don't believe tongues are for now, are lacking faith. I sure hope that's not what you're implying. That's a typical "word-faith" tactic, used as a reason why a believer isn't wealthy. They say, "God wants you to be wealthy. You're not wealthy because you lack faith".

Pete: I wonder whether a believer raised with modern leader-audience “church services” would even recognize the leadership of the Holy Spirit, orderliness, and ministry happening in the believers' assemblies Paul knew.

OK, so now you're saying that churches that speak in tongues ARE somehow more spiritual and willing to embrace all that God wants to give them, but (at least) 75% of the Church - almost to a member of individual churches - are all filled with people unwilling to desire and embrace God's gifts? PLEASE! Let's not forget all the huge amount of nonsense we see exhibited amongst the 25% you claim embrace tongues. So the 75% of Christians are less mature than those granted the gift of tongues. Seriously?!!!

The answer is simple, they don't browbeat and demand that you cannot speak in unknown tongues and must submit to the non-gifting cultural norm of intellectual 'only' Christendom. They are open to the Holy Spirit and are will to learn, be chastised, and live by God's grace.

Same thing! God gives the gifts. Scripture says that one gift is not superior - nor the ones RECEIVING the gift. But now you're floating the assertion that Christians don't get certain gifts because either they or their assemblies and leaders don't want them, aren't mature enough or willing to receive them? First, WHO is sovereign? Are tongues a unique or superior gift? Why are ALL of the other gifts distributed across ALL churches?

It is the Lord who gives to each as he so wills - not as we so will. Sadly, many so will that he keeps His gifts to himself.

But that is a contradiction! So our will about gifts is what God bases their gifting upon? And you're trying to tell me that 75% of the entire church - and more if you go back a few centuries - are unwilling and not receptive to ANY gift God might give? Pastors, leaders and missionaries (many of whom DIED for Christ) who would receive this gift - and we're to believe they wouldn't want them after receiving them? That ALL wouldn't want them before receiving? That they don't want what God wants for them? This holds no water at all! Certainly not for such a large majority and with these being consistent throughout individual churches.

B.W.: All I can say or add here: Let the Lord be the Lord of the Church and ask him to give you the word to get out of the boat. Be willing to learn, be chastised, grow in personal faith in him, so we all make it to the far shore together.

And here we go again, those not receiving tongues aren't willing enough to receive them, haven't prayed for God to "Fill their cup with all He might," and those who have received them have greater faith or love for God? Nonsense!!!

The big problem for me is, I am only a Christian man whose eyes are only opened as God provides. When I hear tongues: I don't know what is being said, I don't know their source, I have no way of knowing if the translator or the translation is of God. I see rampant weird things associated with them. I know the devil roams the earth with his counterfeiting tool kit. I know to test ALL things. And so, at least so far, for me (and vast millions of Christians) these things (related to tongues) remain a mystery of potential danger and caution. Anyone telling me I should just believe in and trust what I have no present tools to discern is telling me to be foolish and to NOT "test all things." Millions over the past 2,000 years have died for their belief in Christ - and most did not utter tongues. They followed Jesus to their very deaths, but did not have this gift. To say they were all unwilling to receive ANY gift or understanding that God might provide is more than absurd. That explanation is an epic fail!

As well, while some of what has been written here MIGHT indicate tongues are for today, we have the problem that many other gifts exhibited by the apostles are no longer. INSTANT healings, definite prophecies, etc - these are certainly extremely obscure if they still happen. Certainly, they are not unmistakable and obvious. But they WERE, back then. So the same reasoning saying tongues are still for today based upon Scripture - well, what about those other miraculous gifts, what happened to THOSE? See the problem?

The Body needs every ability of the individual parts. But tongues would appear to be the one ability most in the Body of Christ doesn't need, doesn't understand, doesn't partake in, and, at least to them, is of no understandable benefit to. Which seems very odd.

RickD wrote:I don't know if this has even been brought up, but are we talking about "tongues" in the same sense as the tongues in Acts? Tongues as the native language of the one listening to the gospel?
Because when I think of modern "tongues", I think of Pentecostal gibberish. Has there been any evidence of tongues as in Acts, still happening today?

Already answered, some three weeks ago in that other thread, and multiple times in this one. Acts 2, to which you allude, is unique in Scripture. And 1 Corinthians 14 contradicts the idea that speaking in tongues is mainly to be understood by native speakers of the language.

Until this AM, with my response to being tarred with snake-handlers, I've tried to be reasonably dispassionate and non-personal. That post and this have elements that are beyond the pale.

Rick, if you or ptc truly think Pentecostals and charismatics are demonized, protect this forum by banning me. Or if you really think Pentecostals and charismatics are fruitcakes, tell me, "Yes, I will have turnip fries and a dill pickle milkshake with my order," and send me to "Coventry". Either put actions to what you sincerely believe, or start showing a little of the love and respect due a brother in Christ.

Pete wrote:
Rick, if you or ptc truly think Pentecostals and charismatics are demonized, protect this forum by banning me. Or if you really think Pentecostals and charismatics are fruitcakes, tell me, "Yes, I will have turnip fries and a dill pickle milkshake with my order," and send me to "Coventry". Either put actions to what you sincerely believe, or start showing a little of the love and respect due a brother in Christ.

Pete, I don't know what gave you the impression that I think Pentecostals and charismatics as a group, are demonized. I don't think that at all. In fact, my wife and her pastor brother who married us, are both Pentecostal.

Seriously, what did I say to lead you to believe that I think that? I would never say, nor do I believe any Christian denomination is demonized.

Pete,

I'm completely lost to why you said this.
Can't we disagree about a non-essential doctrine, without it getting personal?

I don't think anyone is disrespectful just because they are questioning something that is not a certainty for themselves. And that is precisely where I am on this issue. No mere talk or inability to explain the rather large, strange and apparent modern inconsistencies (that Scripture does not reveal), is going to overcome my cautions. So I just don't KNOW. And as God is the one who distributes gifts, then HE will have to show me if 1) they are of Him; 2) That they are for today; 3) How I can understand their purpose and meaning - and what Interpreter to trust? Until God changes my status on this, no amount of talk or supposed linking of Scriptures for "proof" is going to cut it. Because many other things the Apostles demonstrated as God-given gifts are now gone. Do you see people lined up and being healed of life-long paralysis? Exorcisms? Future events being prophesied? I don't. So you can't use Scripture to definitely say that tongues should not have ceased, because other gifts have.

So I just don't/can't know - at the present. And I don't think others who embrace this can simply explain it. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that tongues today are ABSOLUTELY not of the Lord. I can't say that either. And just as their practice is not a litmus test for authentic Christianity, neither is their use a litmus test for saying one is a heretic or teaching falsely about Scripture. I don't think anyone here has been saying that. But if you don't know, you just don't KNOW. I think we have to leave it at that.

Ok Pete,

I think I know what I said that offended you. "Pentecostal gibberish" is all I know of modern day tongues. It is specifically when people at some of the Pentecostal churches I've attended, start speaking in "tongues" to appear super-spiritual. You know, the gibberish that they try to pass off as a language. The "shummala-hummala-bummala" type gibberish. I've been to Pentecostal churches where this hasn't happened too. So I'm certainly not saying all Pentecostal churches allow or promote this. But in my experience, however limited, it was only specific Pentecostal or specific AOG churches that this happened in. It's my only experience with what those who performed this, called tongues.

RickD wrote:

RickD wrote:
Why are believers in only certain "charismatic" denominations, the ones who claim the gift of tongues?

B. W. wrote:
The answer is simple, they don't browbeat and demand that you cannot speak in unknown tongues and must submit to the non-gifting cultural norm of intellectual 'only' Christendom. They are open to the Holy Spirit and are will to learn, be chastised, and live by God's grace.

Bryan,
That's making an assumption, which I believe is unwarranted, that those who don't speak in tongues, aren't "open to the Holy Spirit".

That to me is just an insult. You're basically saying that because I don't speak in tongues, I'm not open to the HS.

I believe jlay mentioned that he prayed to God that if tongues are from Him, that He would give him the gift. And, I also did the same myself. I got nothing. So that says what to me? It says either tongues isn't from God, or, if tongues is from God, then He didn't want to give me that gift. Why would He ask us to seek these gifts if we did, then He just wouldn't give them to us?

B. W. wrote:
Point and principle of this can be uncovered in Matthew 14. Whem Jesus walked on water, only one person asked to get out of the boat (Peter) while the others stayed in. Peter saw the circumstances, his faith shrank, and he begin to sink, yet, Jesus, was a hand grasp length away, and rescued Peter. They got back into the boat and the 13 of them made it to the shore. Prior to this, Jesus gave the command for all to get into the boat and travel to the other shore, and the wind of God kicked up against self effort. Jesus stayed behind, and he later walked out to the boat in its trouble. Often, the Lord likes to see who will ask if they can walk on water. Likewise, in regard to the gifts, people are shocked at seeing how really real Jesus really is. The majority stay in the boat and a few folk, ask, If it is you, Lord, bid me to come. They take a step out of the boat walking on the promise of God. Then the storm gets their attention and they begin to sink as 1 Co 13:1-3 states. Amazingly, Jesus, just a hands grasp away reaches out to rescues them so all make it to the far shore, together.

This principle can be applied to the gifts of the Holy Spirit as well too. Remember that we are all in the same boat, the Church universal, some will ask to step out, others will not. So the question for us all is this, are we asking to step out or do our answers and reasoning reveal fear of the storm if we do? Not all folks have the same giftings. More folks would share in the language gifts, but only Christ Jesus can calm the storm. Each of the gifts of the Spirit are still valid today and each member of the Church is part of the same team. It is the Lord who gives to each as he so wills - not as we so will. Sadly, many so will that he keeps His gifts to himself.

Now this almost sounds like you're saying that I and others who don't believe tongues are for now, are lacking faith. I sure hope that's not what you're implying. That's a typical "word-faith" tactic, used as a reason why a believer isn't wealthy. They say, "God wants you to be wealthy. You're not wealthy because you lack faith".

Rick, i think, the point is, the gifts are distributed by the holy spirit, to each as the H.S decides. Some gifts may be achived by praying but I don't think thats true. I use to speak in tongues, now I don't. i stopped, it came naturally and went away the same way after 8-9 years. I think its how you walk and how you position yourself in christian life, which might reflect your gifts more. I certainly can speak sometimes even today but now I prefer not to as well, now I don''t find the need to either. My father never spoke tongues, but he is a faithful person and man of God, and other gifts of the spirit are working in him, just not tongues. I kept praying for other gifts and never got them, doesn't mean they don't work or that if they6 do work in someone else, he is more spiritual then me, as a requirement to have that gift.

But it is also true that many denominations don't accept that gifts work anymore, so they on the onset stop HS to do his work in them. I think that is what B.W might be trying to say. I am very against the teaching that tongues are a must have gift among all "true" HS filled believers. It doesn't have to be, the epistles clearly state that gifts are given as HS decides so some have some and others have others.

RickD wrote:

Pete wrote:
In 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 Paul told us when the gift of speaking in tongues (and other gifts) would cease, at Jesus' second coming.

Could you show me where in these verses, that it says the gift of speaking in tongues would cease at Jesus' second coming? I just see that it says they will cease. I don't see where it says when.

Paul describes when speaking in tongues - and other gifts of the Holy Spirit - will cease:

8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. 11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.

"(W)hen the perfect comes", then face to face, then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known - so, what does Paul's description mean? What is this "when" Paul described. I'm aware of four possibilities:

1. The completion of the Bible (or the death of the Apostle John, soon after) - This is the argument made by at least some (many? most? almost all?) Cessationists. This is a case of eisegesis, reading into the text what the persons want it to say. It is based on the fact that the word in verse 10 commonly translated "perfect" also means "complete". There are problems with this understanding. First, Paul wrote to the church at Corinth, and "the completion of the Bible" would/could not be how they would understand his words. [sarcasm] Of course, that assumes Paul and the Holy Spirit wanted Paul's letter to be understood by its recipients. [/sarcasm] Second, Paul said that he would "see" and "know" in that day. Paul died well before the last book of the NT was written. So he did not see the Bible completed (but he will see Jesus' return, and as at least some understand it, will be there). And since Paul wrote to the believers at Corinth and, ultimately, to all believers for all time, we also have not experienced this seeing and knowing. So this possibility fails to fit Paul's description of when speaking in tongues and other gifts of the Holy Spirit will cease.

2. The death of Paul - At least one book of the New Testament, the prophecy of the book of Revelation, was written after Paul died. It being prophecy, this possibility fails to fit Paul's description of when speaking in tongues and other gifts of the Holy Spirit will cease. (Brevity is not my spiritual gift, but I'm trying ...)

3. Some undetermined time between John's death and now - No time between when Paul write 1 Corinthians truly fits Paul and Christians generally seeing and knowing as Paul said we would when speaking in tongues and other gifts of the Holy Spirit cease. So this possibility does not fit Paul's description of that time, either.

4. Jesus second coming - This is the only time that does fit the seeing and knowing as Paul said we would when speaking in tongues and other gifts of the Holy Spirit cease. And if you think about it from the perspective that the gifts of the Spirit are tools given by God to build up the church and believers - as Scripture states to be the case - the second coming of Jesus is the only time at which the church and believers will no longer need to be built up.

Sorry about accidentally skipping one of your posts, ptc. I lost track of where I was in the thread history. Anyway ...

Philip wrote:This is still very unclear as to it's proper meaning and context (then vs. today}. First, clearly, unless an interpreter, one speaking in tongues does not know what he is saying.

Actually, I think the meaning is sufficiently clear. Speaking in tongues is a gift of the Holy Spirit, not a natural ability. Interpretation of tongues is a gift of the Holy Spirit (see 1 Corinthians 12:10, 30; verses 7-11 attribute the listed gifts to the Holy Spirit 6 times, as if Paul had been trying to make a point). So you are correct, that the speaker in tongues does not understand what (s)he said; neither (usually), in terms of natural abilities, does the interpreter. In the context of a gathering of the church, an utterance in tongues should only be addressed to the gathered believers if it is going to be interpreted. If there is no interpreter (i.e. one so gifted) the would-be speaker in tongues should "speak to himself and to God" (verse 28, an understanding supported by verses 14-19). I think the meaning of these verses is quite clear. The problem is with us: our lack of familiarity with the gifts of the Holy Spirit; our performers-audience "church service" model, which works well for lectures and stage productions such as concerts or plays, but not at all well for the kind of gathering Paul described in verse 26. As for the lack of knowledge and experience, I wonder sometimes whether even Protestants realize how much was lost, how low the church got, between Christianity being officially tolerated, in the 4th Century, and the Reformation, begun in the 16th Century. If you want to get a taste of the depths to which the church fell, do an Internet search on "Cadaver Synod" and "Marozia". Or read about what the 4th Crusade did in Byzantium.

Philip wrote:So all of this chaotic, simultaneous speaking in tongues in churches today cannot be of God because "God is not characterized by disorder."

I would agree, except that you omit another possibility. Your statement implies that the two possible sources of the purported speaking in tongues in such a circumstance is either the speaker's flesh or Satanic. I won't disagree that those are possible. But almost the entirety of 1 Corinthians 14 is about a third possibility: the genuine gift of speaking in tongues, misused. Is it out of order for an entire congregation to be simultaneously speaking (or singing) in tongues, aloud? Absolutely. Had I been asked that question 30 or 40 years ago, my answer would have been the same. Paul makes that question rather clear, though many Pentecostals and charismatics do seem to have missed that fact in reading 1 Corinthians 14.

More from this post later.

Pete: So you are correct, that the speaker in tongues does not understand what (s)he said; neither (usually), in terms of natural abilities, does the interpreter.

So you have people speaking an unknown thing (to THEM) and that even the speaker may well not undertand it? Even the interpreter may not? But you include, "in terms of natural abilities." As so here we have the problem. No one without the gift can know if what they are hearing is authentic and from the Lord, nor can they know if any supposed interpretation is 1) from the Lord; 2) what it means; 3) whether the interpreter and his or her interpretation is correct. So for those not understanding any of these, we cannot KNOW! We do know the immense possibility of counterfeiting by the demonic. So, based upon these problems, what is one without such understandings or gifts to do?

Pete: If there is no interpreter (i.e. one so gifted) the would-be speaker in tongues should "speak to himself and to God" (verse 28, an understanding supported by verses 14-19).

So, if GOD is the source of an unknown tongue being "channeled" through a believer - then what is its purpose to the believer, if he has no way of knowing what he (the believer) is saying (or that God is saying through him)? And don't say it is merely spiritually uplifting, as we're told in Scripture that ones with the gift of tongues is no more spiritual that those without it (or those with OTHER gifts). Otherwise, those without the gift would be deprived of a spiritual growth avenue only given to those with the gift. And If one has no way of interpretation (when an interpreter is not available), is God just speaking to Himself through the Believer? What - if the believer is the gatekeeper as to whether he or she uses this gift - and can turn it on or off like a switch? IF this is unknown to the one speaking in tongues, then what value is it as far as a TWO-WAY communication that is useful?

Pete: The problem is with us: our lack of familiarity with the gifts of the Holy Spirit

Yep, no question about that!

Pete: As for the lack of knowledge and experience, I wonder sometimes whether even Protestants realize how much was lost, how low the church got, between Christianity being officially tolerated, in the 4th Century, and the Reformation, begun in the 16th Century. If you want to get a taste of the depths to which the church fell, do an Internet search on "Cadaver Synod" and "Marozia". Or read about what the 4th Crusade did in Byzantium.

HOLD ON! Now you're back to saying history and human forces have repressed and mostly eliminated a gift ONLY given by GOD? And you are almost speaking of tongues as if they are inherited? We should be discussing this in view of Christians LIVING TODAY, whom would gladly welcome in gifts of the Spirit, as God wills. But you are saying they largely have gone away because of MAN and LONG past history. These people and events do impact us, but GIFTS are not genetic or inherited! Did the other gifts we see widespread today disappear as well? No! If CHRISTIANS can deny what you are saying that ONLY God can give, your explanation does not hold up! Who, ULTIMATELY, gives and controls the gift of tongues? I can tell you if it is GOD, then the entire distribution of it has nothing to do with church history or men, or its great majority that does not recognize or understand tongues. This would have to be of God's sovereign doing. Remember, the gifts are for MAN, God's glory and given by God. Only HE can repress them. Is He sovereign or not?

Respectfully, while well-intentioned, I think Pete is trying to explain a mystery that mere words are inadequate to do so.