What would have happened had Adam never sinned?

[Philip]

Outlaw: I make no claims about the origins of the universe I simply lack a belief in gods due to a lack of evidence. If you had evidence for your god you wouldn't require faith. The evidence could be tested and verified and measured.

A lack of evidence? How about Exhibit A: THE UNIVERSE! A universe IMMEDIATELY came into existence where before there was nothing. Time, space, dimensions, matter, and the laws of great complexity and immense, interactive specificity guiding them were all there, within moments of the Big Bang's beginning. So, you either believe - what can only accurately be described as inexplicable and miraculous - that this all happend BY ITSELF, unguided and uncaused, or some Greater Intelligence has to be behind it all. A universe and complex laws can't create themselves - in fact, NOTHING comes from nothing or doesn't have a cause. This is scientific fact. And any one of the beginning processes themselves are, statistically, inexplicable - not to mention scientifically impossible.

No measurable scientific evidence of a Creator?!!! Do you sincerely believe that the things on the lists linked below could possibly, either individually or - more astoundingly - INTERACTIVELY, come into being or develop BY THEMSELVES?!!!

Fine-Tuning for Life in the Universe — lists 140 features of the cosmos as a whole (including the laws of physics) that must fall within certain narrow ranges to allow for the possibility of physical life's existence.
http://www.reasons.org/files/compendium ... _part1.pdf

Fine-Tuning for Intelligent Physical Life—describes 402 quantifiable characteristics of a planetary system and its galaxy that must fall within narrow ranges to allow for the possibility of advanced life's existence. This list includes comment on how a slight increase or decrease in the value of each characteristic would impact that possibility.
http://www.reasons.org/files/compendium ... _part2.pdf

Probability Estimates for Features Required by Various Life Forms—Identifies 922 characteristics of a galaxy and of a planetary system physical life depends on and offers conservative estimates of the probability that any galaxy or planetary system would manifest such characteristics. This list is divided into three parts, based on differing requirements for various life-forms and their duration.
http://www.reasons.org/files/compendium ... 3_ver2.pdf

Probability Estimates on Different Size Scales for the Features Required by Advanced Life —presents a breakdown of the characteristics required by advanced life (from Part 3) as they must occur, separately, in the galaxy cluster, galaxy, star, planetary system, planet, moon, planetary surface, and ecosystem where advanced life exists.
http://www.reasons.org/files/compendium ... 4_ver2.pdf

[PaulSacramento]

People tend to confuse evidence with proof.
When people say that there is a lack of evidence for God they really mean proof BUT they also mean this:
I believe that there is no God because there is no evidence that I AGREE WITH that proves that the God I THINK I am refuting exists.

See, atheist always say that believer create God in their image, they they create a God that they want to exist BUT the reality is that atheists create a God that they want and can refute.

[Kenny]

PaulSacramento
People tend to confuse evidence with proof.
Ken
Maybe when people say “evidence” they mean “strong evidence”. One can see presents under the Christmas tree as evidence that Santa put them there. That doesn’t mean it should be believed.

Paulsacramento
When people say that there is a lack of evidence for God they really mean proof BUT they also mean this:
I believe that there is no God because there is no evidence that I AGREE WITH that proves that the God I THINK I am refuting exists.
Ken
How about this? I don’t believe Santa Clause exists because there is no evidence that I AGREE WITH that proves that he put the presents under the tree?

Paulsacramento
See, atheist always say that believer create God in their image, they they create a God that they want to exist BUT the reality is that atheists create a God that they want and can refute.
Ken
Who are these atheists that you are talking about?

Ken

[outlaw]

Outlaw: I make no claims about the origins of the universe I simply lack a belief in gods due to a lack of evidence. If you had evidence for your god you wouldn't require faith. The evidence could be tested and verified and measured.

A lack of evidence? How about Exhibit A: THE UNIVERSE! A universe IMMEDIATELY came into existence where before there was nothing. Time, space, dimensions, matter, and the laws of great complexity and immense, interactive specificity guiding them were all there, within moments of the Big Bang's beginning. So, you either believe - what can only accurately be described as inexplicable and miraculous - that this all happend BY ITSELF, unguided and uncaused, or some Greater IntelligeUnce has to be behind it all. A universe and complex laws can't create themselves - in fact, NOTHING comes from nothing or doesn't have a cause. This is scientific fact. And any one of the beginning processes themselves are, statistically, inexplicable - not to mention scientifically impossible.

No measurable scientific evidence of a Creator?!!! Do you sincerely believe that the things on the lists linked below could possibly, either individually or - more astoundingly - INTERACTIVELY, come into being or develop BY THEMSELVES?!!!

Fine-Tuning for Life in the Universe — lists 140 features of the cosmos as a whole (including the laws of physics) that must fall within certain narrow ranges to allow for the possibility of physical life's existence.
http://www.reasons.org/files/compendium ... _part1.pdf

Fine-Tuning for Intelligent Physical Life—describes 402 quantifiable characteristics of a planetary system and its galaxy that must fall within narrow ranges to allow for the possibility of advanced life's existence. This list includes comment on how a slight increase or decrease in the value of each characteristic would impact that possibility.
http://www.reasons.org/files/compendium ... _part2.pdf

Probability Estimates for Features Required by Various Life Forms—Identifies 922 characteristics of a galaxy and of a planetary system physical life depends on and offers conservative estimates of the probability that any galaxy or planetary system would manifest such characteristics. This list is divided into three parts, based on differing requirements for various life-forms and their duration.
http://www.reasons.org/files/compendium ... 3_ver2.pdf

Probability Estimates on Different Size Scales for the Features Required by Advanced Life —presents a breakdown of the characteristics required by advanced life (from Part 3) as they must occur, separately, in the galaxy cluster, galaxy, star, planetary system, planet, moon, planetary surface, and ecosystem where advanced life exists.
http://www.reasons.org/files/compendium ... 4_ver2.pdf

You say a universe came into existence from nothing. How do you know that there was a time when nothing existed?
Just because we don't yet and might not ever know where how everything got here you can't just say 'god did it'
Unless you want god to be the god of the gaps, an ever shrinking probability that has been shrinking from day one and will continue to shrink the more we discover how things really work.

[Byblos]

You say a universe came into existence from nothing. How do you know that there was a time when nothing existed?
Just because we don't yet and might not ever know where how everything got here you can't just say 'god did it'
Unless you want god to be the god of the gaps, an ever shrinking probability that has been shrinking from day one and will continue to shrink the more we discover how things really work.

Ah yes, let's then substitute that with god, err ... science of the gaps. Yeah that ought to do it.

[RickD]

outlaw wrote:
You say a universe came into existence from nothing. How do you know that there was a time when nothing existed?

Outlaw,
You do realize it's widely accepted in the scientific community, that the Big Bang was the beginning of the universe? And by definition, the universe is all existing matter and space. So, if all space and matter began to exist, logically, no space and matter existed prior to it beginning to exist.

[Kenny]

outlaw wrote:
You say a universe came into existence from nothing. How do you know that there was a time when nothing existed?

Outlaw,
You do realize it's widely accepted in the scientific community, that the Big Bang was the beginning of the universe? And by definition, the universe is all existing matter and space. So, if all space and matter began to exist, logically, no space and matter existed prior to it beginning to exist.

The Big Bang was the beginning of the Universe AS WE KNOW IT. Science does not claim there was a time in history when absolutely nothing existed.

Ken

[Kenny]

You say a universe came into existence from nothing. How do you know that there was a time when nothing existed?
Just because we don't yet and might not ever know where how everything got here you can't just say 'god did it'
Unless you want god to be the god of the gaps, an ever shrinking probability that has been shrinking from day one and will continue to shrink the more we discover how things really work.

Ah yes, let's then substitute that with god, err ... science of the gaps. Yeah that ought to do it.

There can be no "science of the gaps" because science admits they do not have all the answers. If you guys were willing to do that, we wouldn't be calling you on your "God of the gaps" responses.

Ken

[RickD]

Kenny wrote:
The Big Bang was the beginning of the Universe AS WE KNOW IT. Science does not claim there was a time in history when absolutely nothing existed.

Kenny,

Just for a moment, use the logic that evolution gave you.

If the Big Bang is the beginning of matter, space, and time, what could've existed before that?

So yes, as we understand what science is saying, is that before time, matter and space began to exist, no matter, time, nor space existed. It's really simple logic Kenny.

[Kenny]

Kenny wrote:
The Big Bang was the beginning of the Universe AS WE KNOW IT. Science does not claim there was a time in history when absolutely nothing existed.

Kenny,

Just for a moment, use the logic that evolution gave you.

If the Big Bang is the beginning of matter, space, and time, what could've existed before that?

So yes, as we understand what science is saying, is that before time, matter and space began to exist, no matter, time, nor space existed. It's really simple logic Kenny.

What existed before the Big Bang? The singular that expanded to become the big bang. What existed before that? Science does not claim to know.

K

[Byblos]

You say a universe came into existence from nothing. How do you know that there was a time when nothing existed?
Just because we don't yet and might not ever know where how everything got here you can't just say 'god did it'
Unless you want god to be the god of the gaps, an ever shrinking probability that has been shrinking from day one and will continue to shrink the more we discover how things really work.

Ah yes, let's then substitute that with god, err ... science of the gaps. Yeah that ought to do it.

There can be no "science of the gaps" because science admits they do not have all the answers. If you guys were willing to do that, we wouldn't be calling you on your "God of the gaps" responses.

Ken

If anyone had been advocating a god of the gaps argument you'd have a leg to stand but you don't.

I tell you what Kenny, not only will I say the universe cannot be shown to be finite with reason alone, I will go so far as to state that it is possible the universe (read matter and energy) is etrenal. Even at that, it could STILL be shown from reason alone the necessity of a first mover. But we've danced around this bull before haven't we. It went nowhere then and I suspect it will go nowhere again. And we also know why.

[RickD]

Kenny wrote:
What existed before the Big Bang? The singular that expanded to become the big bang. What existed before that? Science does not claim to know.

The singular? Really? You sure bout that?

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

You say a universe came into existence from nothing. How do you know that there was a time when nothing existed?

There was never a time when nothing existed. Time itself came into existence at the Big Bang. Before the BB, there was no time, no nothin'.*

FL

*the double negative here is a literary device. If you don't understand what a literary device is, go back to reading your comic books.

[RickD]

FL wrote:
There was never a time when nothing existed. Time itself came into existence at the Big Bang. Before the BB, there was no time, no nothin'.*

You mean nothin cept the singularity...er...singular. Right Kenny?

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

I'm not even sure Kenny's ''singular'' existed. Actually, I'm pretty sure that no thing existed. We need an astronomer here. Or a cosmologist...this is a topic for Dr. No, Queen of Slobovia!

FL