Evidence for God from Science

Audie wrote:Speaking as Audie the Dreadnaught, I dont care to discuss philosophy, its not my thing.

Then if I can politely suggest that you stop making equivocations where none exist.

Id tend to agree no equivocation exists there.

Please identify any that you see.

Audie wrote:Id tend to agree no equivocation exists there.

Please identify any that you see.

Audie wrote:Saying its "God" is a lot like the thing you said about saying its "aliens", it just moves the question along a notch, explaining nothing, and in this case making the mystery orders of magnitude bigger. That is how I see it, at least.

Hence my reply that it's not the same at all and the need to go into philosophy. But if you don't want to discuss the subject then you need stop making assertions that they are the same.

Byblos wrote:

Audie wrote:Id tend to agree no equivocation exists there.

Please identify any that you see.

Audie wrote:Saying its "God" thing you said about saying its "aliens", it just moves the question along a notch, explaining nothing, and in this case making the mystery orders of magnitude bigger. That is how I see it, at least.

Hence my reply that it's not the same at all and the need to go into philosophy. But if you don't want to discuss the subject then you need stop making assertions that they are the same.

"is a lot like" equals not "they are the same"; saying it is, is where we get equivocation, from you tho, not from me.

Saying something is "a lot the same" as something else is not equivocation.

An opinion is not an assertion. That is another equivocation.

That the dreadP is the only way to discuss is........http://forums.crackberry.com/attachment ... pinion.jpg

Or, 'assertion' if you prefer.

Oh, and you dont get to tell me what minor things you can pounce on and force me to discuss on your terms, or else I must be quiet. Why do you even want to?

Byblos wrote:

melanie wrote:I don't intend to throw this thread off topic, but I guess some truth is subject to an individual's reality. I was exactly like you FL, I didn't believe in the UFO thing at all. I actually laughed and mocked people who claimed otherwise untill my reality got a swift kick up the behind. I'm so very glad that I was not alone when I had my very real, very up close, very unexplainable encounter, thank God, literally, that there was no abduction involved. I know how it sounds, but that doesn't change my reality. And I don't expect people to believe me or take it on face value, because if I hadn't seen it for myself I wouldn't believe a second hand account either.

Would you be willing to share the details Melanie? I realize it must be difficult for you as it may put you in possible situation of ridicule but I can assure you at least not from my side. I've learned the hard way to never discount or dismiss people's personal beliefs and experiences since I've had some of my own.

Sure Byblos, I have no issue sharing my experience. its not something I often talk about though. Directly after the incident I did as I was so shaken by it and I copped my fair share of ridicule and disbelief, at the time I was upset by it but now I understand why people react that way. I'm not sure if this is the thread to share it on, so it may need to be moved to another thread.
It was a long time ago, I was travelling home from a trip to Canberra with my sister and my husband who was at the time my fiancé. My sis was driving, I was in the passenger seat and my husband was in the back. It was late afternoon and We were about 20km out of a small country town Tarcutta, my hubby noticed something in the sky and asked us what we thought it was, we were very dismissve, actually we laughed at him, poking fun about him 'looking for UFO's. I glanced at it, it was a long way off in the sky and it didn't really seem like anything strange to me. My sis and I went on chatting. Then about 10 minutes he said again, "no really what the hell is that?" This time it caught our attention a little more, it was much closer and a bit strange. We started going through possible explantions as to what it could be, now it was behind the car as we we're travelling along, my sis was looking behind whilst at the same time turning her head to and fro to keep an eye on the road to drive. Then when her head was turned back looking at it, as myself and hubby were, it disappeared in an instant, I said "it's gone", in the time it took her to turn her head back towards the road she yelled "it's here". It was now directly infront of the car, much much closer and it was nothing like anything I had ever seen before. It was a very large, about half the size of a football field, a bright illuminated type of metallic colour, no noise and it seemed to be a continuous mold, I mean there were no joins in it. And it was a disc type of structure. My hubby yelled pulled over, my sister replied "bugger (she used a more expressive word) off, I'm not getting abducted" and I just completely and entirely lost my composure and freaked out. I remember so clearly staring up at this thing, and the horrible, negative, spine-chilling feeling I got. It was fear unlike anything I have ever experienced, I have had a few close life threatening calls and felt real fear before in my life but this was terror. I started to hyperventilate and I was going into shock and panic. My sis yelled at me to stop it, and calm down.
Then it disappeared again, I burst into tears and we all said things along the lines of 'thank God it's gone' even my husband who minutes earlier wanted to pull over and get a closer look. Then it returned again this time on the right hand side of the car, we watched it as my sis tried to out drive the thing, which was pointless , and it followed us along for about 10mins. Im still freaking out, but not quite to the same extent as when it was directly infront of the car.
It was late afternoon when this first happened and it had started to become dark. This thing flashed a bright light a few times, then all these little lights lit up around the bottom of it, obviously in a circular pattern, then we watched it as it travelled directly up into the sky and disappeared.
We drove the 10 more minutes or so to Tarcutta and pulled over, although we were the only car on the road when it occurred it seemed impossible that we would have been the only ones to see it. My hubby starting running around asking anyone he saw, which wasn't many, it's a very small town, if they had seen the UFO, the look on the truck drivers face, near where we parked was priceless, he thought we were insane lol.
When we got home that night I rang the Airforce. I wanted to know if anything had been reported or noticed on their radars. The guy on the phone seemed quite bemused, he told me nothing had been but he would put it in the logbook.

Philip, I agree with you. I don't think they are from little green men from outta space but something a lot more sinister and evil. I believed in aliens for many years due to my experience. At the time there was no internet and I read a couple of books and left it at that. Then a couple of years ago I started really thinking and questioning what I had seen. I had a number of really strange, prolific dreams that made me start thinking about what I had seen in a new light. I won't go into them now, I think I have exposed my weirdness enough for one day . When I looked online I was genuinely shocked that so many people believed the same, that it is demonic in nature. This lead to about a year of me researching and reading everything I could get my hands on in relation to the UFO phenomenon which only cemented this belief more.

So there you have it

Wow, Melanie, that's quite a story! I'm sure many have asked you whether there were any bongs involved in enhancing that experience - but I won't. It's fascinating because your description reveals 1) the "craft" (or whatever it truly was) was experienced by three people in mostly good daylight; 2) There were multiple sightings, at least at one point it was VERY close; 3) It seemed to defy physics in its ability to suddenly disappear and then reappear; 4) There was at least one point in which you watched this object for about 10 minutes as it paralleled you; 4) The object was HUGE; 5) It sounds as if this was a classic disk shaped saucer - right out of a 1950s B-movie. While it sounds as if it would have been fun to have experienced this, I can see that it was absolutely terrifying.

One possibility is that it was a secret and experimental military craft. The one thing that makes me doubt that is, if secret and being tested, why test in broad daylight and draw unwanted attention by scaring a car of people half to death? This also would have risked it being photographed. It most certainly MIGHT have been demonic.

Melanie, did either of you even think about trying to get a cellphone photo of the craft - or a snapshot? Did anyone try to interview you about what you saw afterward? Did you report it beyond your telephone call? Lastly, to your knowledge, had any of you, at the time, been involved in anything occult-related? What does your husband think about it today - do you ever talk with each other about it?

Audie wrote:

Byblos wrote:

Audie wrote:Id tend to agree no equivocation exists there.

Please identify any that you see.

Audie wrote:Saying its "God" thing you said about saying its "aliens", it just moves the question along a notch, explaining nothing, and in this case making the mystery orders of magnitude bigger. That is how I see it, at least.

Hence my reply that it's not the same at all and the need to go into philosophy. But if you don't want to discuss the subject then you need stop making assertions that they are the same.

"is a lot like" equals not "they are the same"; saying it is, is where we get equivocation, from you tho, not from me.

Saying something is "a lot the same" as something else is not equivocation.

An opinion is not an assertion. That is another equivocation.

That the dreadP is the only way to discuss is........http://forums.crackberry.com/attachment ... pinion.jpg

Or, 'assertion' if you prefer.

Oh, and you dont get to tell me what minor things you can pounce on and force me to discuss on your terms, or else I must be quiet. Why do you even want to?

Obviously you can do whatever you want, I can't stop you. I was merely appealing to your sense of intellectual honesty insomuchas if you don't want to discuss a particular subject then you shouldn't put forth assertions about it. Unless you're prepared to argue philosophy then you stating that the 'God' argument is like the aliens argument warrants ==> "that which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence". That is all.

Byblos wrote:

Audie wrote:

Byblos wrote:

Audie wrote:Id tend to agree no equivocation exists there.

Please identify any that you see.

Audie wrote:Saying its "God" thing you said about saying its "aliens", it just moves the question along a notch, explaining nothing, and in this case making the mystery orders of magnitude bigger. That is how I see it, at least.

Hence my reply that it's not the same at all and the need to go into philosophy. But if you don't want to discuss the subject then you need stop making assertions that they are the same.

"is a lot like" equals not "they are the same"; saying it is, is where we get equivocation, from you tho, not from me.

Saying something is "a lot the same" as something else is not equivocation.

An opinion is not an assertion. That is another equivocation.

That the dreadP is the only way to discuss is........http://forums.crackberry.com/attachment ... pinion.jpg

Or, 'assertion' if you prefer.

Oh, and you dont get to tell me what minor things you can pounce on and force me to discuss on your terms, or else I must be quiet. Why do you even want to?

Obviously you can do whatever you want, I can't stop you. I was merely appealing to your sense of intellectual honesty insomuchas if you don't want to discuss a particular subject then you shouldn't put forth assertions about it. Unless you're prepared to argue philosophy then you stating that the 'God' argument is like the aliens argument warrants ==> "that which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence". That is all.

Just so you are clear on who was playing equivocation, and I will agree that if a person makes a statement, they generally should be willing to back it up, even if it means calling up the marines.

I dont see it as a philosophical issue, you do, you like to talk P, I dont.

One of those potato-potahto things I guess.

Philip wrote:Wow, Melanie, that's quite a story! I'm sure many have asked you whether there were any bongs involved in enhancing that experience - but I won't. It's fascinating because your description reveals 1) the "craft" (or whatever it truly was) was experienced by three people in mostly good daylight; 2) There were multiple sightings, at least at one point it was VERY close; 3) It seemed to defy physics in its ability to suddenly disappear and then reappear; 4) There was at least one point in which you watched this object for about 10 minutes as it paralleled you; 4) The object was HUGE; 5) It sounds as if this was a classic disk shaped saucer - right out of a 1950s B-movie. While it sounds as if it would have been fun to have experienced this, I can see that it was absolutely terrifying.

One possibility is that it was a secret and experimental military craft. The one thing that makes me doubt that is, if secret and being tested, why test in broad daylight and draw unwanted attention by scaring a car of people half to death? This also would have risked it being photographed. It most certainly MIGHT have been demonic.

Melanie, did either of you even think about trying to get a cellphone photo of the craft - or a snapshot? Did anyone try to interview you about what you saw afterward? Did you report it beyond your telephone call? Lastly, to your knowledge, had any of you, at the time, been involved in anything occult-related? What does your husband think about it today - do you ever talk with each other about it?

Her description mentions a lack of joins, which could suggest the use of advanced 3D Printing technology. Some hypotheses regarding UFOs is that some sightings are top secret experimental craft. As per why testing would be done in broad daylight, well, the design being the pop culture image of a UFO could be a deliberate choice for the sake of misinformation. (I.E. blatantly faking perceived extraterrestrial tech due to pop culture, denying the existence of experimental craft, and conflicting reports about whether or not it's aliens.)

As for what UFO actually means: Unidentified Flying Object. To think that UFO automatically means alien tech is a blatant fallacy that pop culture is guilty of. And if it were known to be alien tech, then it wouldn't be Unidentified anymore, would it?

Misinformation is a thing, folks! It's probably in the CIA manual for catching moles, among other things.

As to the matter of metaphysical deception, I wouldn't discount that idea either. I would even agree that it has been the case sometimes before.

Philip wrote:Wow, Melanie, that's quite a story! I'm sure many have asked you whether there were any bongs involved in enhancing that experience - but I won't. It's fascinating because your description reveals 1) the "craft" (or whatever it truly was) was experienced by three people in mostly good daylight; 2) There were multiple sightings, at least at one point it was VERY close; 3) It seemed to defy physics in its ability to suddenly disappear and then reappear; 4) There was at least one point in which you watched this object for about 10 minutes as it paralleled you; 4) The object was HUGE; 5) It sounds as if this was a classic disk shaped saucer - right out of a 1950s B-movie. While it sounds as if it would have been fun to have experienced this, I can see that it was absolutely terrifying.

One possibility is that it was a secret and experimental military craft. The one thing that makes me doubt that is, if secret and being tested, why test in broad daylight and draw unwanted attention by scaring a car of people half to death? This also would have risked it being photographed. It most certainly MIGHT have been demonic.

Melanie, did either of you even think about trying to get a cellphone photo of the craft - or a snapshot? Did anyone try to interview you about what you saw afterward? Did you report it beyond your telephone call? Lastly, to your knowledge, had any of you, at the time, been involved in anything occult-related? What does your husband think about it today - do you ever talk with each other about it?

Haha Philip yes that question was asked and no, there was no 'enhancing' of the experience.
It happened 16 years ago when I was 20. I did not have a mobile phone, I don't think I got one for another couple of years after this. We often joked that if we had of had a video camera we would have made a million dollars.
As I said I'm very grateful that I wasn't alone and there was 3 of us to verify what had happened. I have two sisters, one is well let's just say has some issues, the other is 7 years older than me, highly educated and very logical. I am glad she was there when it happened.
Two years ago I decided to go under hypnosis to revisit the experience. I hadn't thought about it too much over the years and it had come to the forefront of my mind. I was thinking about it a lot. I wanted to 'see it again' without the fear and adrenalin attached. I thought that hypnosis might be able to take me back to that day. I travelled to Sydney to see a highly recommended clinical hypnotherapist but as it turns out I am one of those people that can't be hypnotised.
When it first happened and we were young sometimes my hubby would in social situations bring it up, I would usually kick him under the table or give him the 'shut up' look. Let's not tell our new friends that we see UFO's lol. We did talk about it together but then life got busy and we very rarely did. Untill around the time I went to the hypnotist. We both had never previously researched it on the Internet and there was a barrage of information to look into. I had come to the conclusion that it was demonic but hadn't said anything to him, I was a little reluctant because we had previously always assumed that it was 'aliens'. Then one day he came home and after the kids went to bed he said that he wanted to talk to me and he told me that he believed that what we had seen was demonic. I was like WHAT!?!? Yes! I think the same, why do you think that? Ect and that opened up discussion and more research.
Now we talk about it from time to time. But we focus more on our faith and Christianity. I think sometimes you can lost in these things and forget what's really important.

Melanie, thank your lucky stars you could not be put under:

Judy Jaafar, a BUFORA investigator and researcher with some 20 years experience at the time of the interview. Ms. Jaafar is also a clinical hypnotherapist and psychotherapist who clearly and competently explained reasons hypnosis should not be used during the investigation of alleged alien abduction.

“It is a very powerful tool and can be dangerous when used irresponsibly,” Jaffar stated, “and no matter what fantasy a witness might come up with during hypnosis, it has to be remembered that under a hypnotic trance state, your capacity for imagination and fantasy is probably doubled or tripled.”

Jaafar further explained potential dangers to witnesses, or hypnosis subjects, adding, “So whatever experience they describe, during hypnosis as far as the abduction scenario is concerned, and when a recording or transcript is taken, this has now become a real event for them, irrespective of whether it actually happened or not.

See the article: http://ufotrail.blogspot.com/2013/09/yo ... isled.html

And at this site, an evangelical Christian scholar - who also happens to take a scholar's approach to the whole UFO and alien thing - offers some great insights and links. He's been researching this stuff for a long time. He does NOT believe there are ACTUAL aliens and he has done a fantastic job of debunking the ancient aliens silliness: http://michaelsheiser.com/UFOReligions/.

I cannot speak for other interpretations but Gap theorist believe based on what the whole of the bible reveals the earth is old and it has nothing to do with science,Gap theorists would believe it even if science taught a young earth,however the evidence in science does not hurt the Gap theory but confirms more of God's word true.