Evidence for God from Science

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:

neo-x wrote:One side uses civs because they like to and the other kills them because they have to. And presumably the latter is right. Well whats the difference? both of them have innocent blood on their hands.

No. I quoted General Sherman who said, ''War is Hell''. And I said that civilian casualties are a normal result of war. Hamas and the population that elected them are wholly to blame for the present war.

On the palwatch website - which you seem to ignore - I saw something remarkable: a talkshow host asked a girl who appeared to be 5 years old, ''How many Jews did your mommy kill?'' the little girl held up her hand with 4 fingers extended. The interviewer exclaimed, ''Praise Allah!'' and the little girl beamed a big smile. Another show, another child: a boy of about 8 is asked, ''What do you want to do when you become a man?'' The boy answered, ''A martyr.'' What kind of sick society produces such children? Do you really think Israel is to blame for creating this hate?

As for drone strikes in Pakistan and you living in fear, these have nothing to do with the present conflict. Your empathy with the people of Gaza is muddying the waters...but I understand you. I used to work with prisonners: murderers, serial murderers and narcotics traffickers. I got to know many of these men and even enjoyed their company. But I always knew that these guys were responsible for their own incarceration. The police who arrested them were innocent; the Crown attorneys who prosecuted them were innocent; and the jailers who guarded them were innocent. My criminal acquaintances were responsible for their own incarceration.

Whether you like it or not, Gazans are solely responsible for their plight and they are now suffering the consequences of their poor choices.

FL

Like FL, I worked with criminals and some of the worst too. They are responsible for their own actions and seek to blame others to justify what they do. Soon, in the USA terrorist will hide behind civilians and began crimes here. One thing I learned in the field of criminal justice is that pure evil indeed exist and often Good has to war openly against it in the most brutal fashion to stop its spread. Book of Revelation describes this very thing.

Evil pervades in Gaza and from infants onward all youth are corrupted by this evil and so an entire population, yet, we in the west think this is impossible as the west thinks all people are basically good. Sorry, that is wrong - the evil of Islam's hate toward Christians and Jews knows no bounds. It is being unleashed in Iraq and in Gaza as well. These folks have you in their sights, and train their children with reckless hate. They know a good photo op and how to photo shop out the rocket launch form a crowded market, make the people stay, so when the counter battery fire hits, the news cameras can blame Israel for killing a few innocent but many hate filled civilians - all martyrs for the glory of Islam. Evil knows no bounds.

Next regarding the false claim that the nation of Israel is illegitimate and came about not by God's hand but by human beings more powerful than sovereign God...

Isaiah 11:11, 12 says this: It shall come to pass in that day That the Lord shall set His hand again the second time To recover the remnant of His people who are left, From Assyria and Egypt, From Pathros and Cush, From Elam and Shinar, From Hamath and the islands of the sea. 12 He will set up a banner for the nations, And will assemble the outcasts of Israel, And gather together the dispersed of Judah From the four corners of the earth. NKJV

So what if God chose the ubber-rich to to help the Jews establish a homeland form midst the countries that desired to kill them all 1933-1945. Now, what I am hearing form some on this board is that God had nothing to do with Israel becoming a nation again the second time because it was those like the Rothchild's who made it happen - not God. If then if that is true then, how can God really be sovereign? A sparrow cannot fall unless by God's design yet a whole nation can appear without God's hand in it at all? I am thankful God is not evil but rather will rid the world of true evil soon enough - come Lord Jesus.

You know what I find amazing is how God moved Cyrus's heart to release the Jews and gave them the funds and wealth to re-establish the Nation during the first regathering. So why can't he move the hearts of the wealthy to do so again to save a race of people from genocide amongst a world that hates them back into their own homeland just as God decreed? God hasn't forsaken all the Jewish people, he made a everlasting covenant with them. Let's not also forget, as Christians, our heads are on the chopping block of Islam too as are all free people...

Pure evil plays people, please don't forget that, and in Gaza pure evil - Hamas - are playing the world for fools.

Isa 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! NKJV

Mal 2:17
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B.W. what about the evil of A Jewish State?

We in the West can only see through the eyes of a Western State of Mind., A Western View of looking at things from the outside looking in., but we're not in it.

You ask a people you have no true understanding of ~> to think like you, to analyze as you do, but never ever do you put yourself in those same shoes and why? Because you can't!
You don't live under the gun pointing at you from A Jewish State, therefore you can't process what is like., You can only take at face value what the controlled media of this world has bombarded you with!

Little if anything is said or found in regards to how that Jewish State was created, and over who's many dead lives it has been built.

We think of an Israel that is democratic., an Israel that is supposedly the best ally the U.S. and the West has in the region., but how much do we really know how that State was built?
Have you really been unbiased in your search for the causes and effects of the current situation?
Have you really done your homework in history and confirmed whether what the Jewish State says is true or not in regards to who is a terrorist?

Have you even educated yourself on how Zionists "originally" used terror to accomplish a Jewish State?


Palestine - Canaan - Israel

All diff Hebrew and Arab people's since the days of the destruction of the second temple accommodated each other and lived peacefully over the centuries with a few exceptions.,
those exceptions being primarily the crusades era, and the modern day zionism era
but for the most part of the last 2000 years ~> Jews, Arabs, Muslims, Christians and Druze had lived side by side toiling the land in peace with each other
And it wasn't 'til this modern era of empires and foreign dictates on others ~> that we come to the war and friction which we have today

A never-ending "racial" conflict

Both sides poisoned in their hearts and minds to the point where if the world would not restrain them ~> they would annihilate each other

for it is not solely the muslims and the arabs that cling to evil thoughts, but so too the jews of israel that can't rise above their racism and religious bottomless pit

an Israeli Palestinian can't be a part of a Jewish State and society anymore so than a Palestinian Christian can

If you truly believe that just because you as a Christian can fit in within a Jewish State and hold as much weight within that State for simply being a pro-Israeli Christian.,
then I say ~> you're being naive

Israel is a democracy as far as Jews are concerned for the Jews ~> but not for any Palestinian or Gentile ~> and that is a fact!

but if you want to believe that somehow the rebirth of Zionist Israel is the Israel who the LORD call HIS people, and to whom HE will restore to Grace
then I can't say much more else than ~> We As Christians Have Failed To Be The True Light Of The World

Because.,

We have failed both Jews and Muslims by taking sides with INJUSTICE and LIES!

We Then Become Promoters And Partakers Of The Coming Doom That Awaits At Our Doorstep

Because We Had No Love And We Grew Blind

There are many many Jews against Zionism and the Jewish state.
JUDAISM IS NOT ZIONISM.
The most thought provoking information I have come across regarding this issue is from the Jewish people themselves. They provide an insight that too many of us are lacking. Google Jews against Zionism. Read their stories, see how they view through the eyes of their religion this Zionist aggression, which it seems we agree is secular in nature.

Exert taken from 'Jews united against Zionism' website

JUDAISM AND ZIONISM ARE NOT THE SAME THING
We would like to take a few minutes of your time to prevent you from making a terrible mistake that may have disastrous results for many.

You have always without a doubt heard and read much about the political crises in the Middle East in which the State of Israel plays a central role. This is, in fact, an ongoing series of crises with potential to bring the greatest misfortune on the entire world. Tragically many believe that Zionism and Judaism are identical. Thus they conclude that the entire Jewish people is responsible for the actions of the Zionist government and the world crises which emanates from it. This is a Grave Error!

The truth is that the Jewish faith and Zionism are two very different philosophies. They are as opposite as day and night. The Jewish people have existed for thousands of years. In their two thousand years of Divinely decreed exile no Jew ever sought to end this exile and establish independent political sovereignty anywhere. The people's sole purpose was the study and fulfillment of the Divine commandments of the Torah.

The Zionist movement created the Israeli state. The latter is a persuasion less than one hundred years old. Its essential goal was and is to change the nature of the Jewish people from that of a religious entity to a political movement. From Zionism's inception the spiritual leaders of the Jewish people stood in staunch opposition to it.

To this day Torah Jewry remains forever loyal to its faith. Zionists want the world to believe that they are the representatives of the entire Jewish people. This is false! The Jewish people never chose them as their leaders.

The Zionists have deceived many well meaning Jewish people via terror, trickery and false propaganda. They have at their disposal the use of a nearly universally subservient media. Whoever attempts to criticize them puts his livelihood and, at times, his very life in danger.

However, despite the media blackout and easy resort to terror the simple truth remains unrefuted and irrefutable: ACCORDING TO THE JEWISH FAITH AND TORAH LAW THE JEWISH PEOPLE ARE FORBIDDEN TO HAVE THEIR OWN STATE WHILE AWAITING THE MESSIANIC ERA!

The Creator gave us the Holy Land thousands of years ago. Yet, when we sinned, He took it away and sent us into exile. Since that time our task is to wait for Him to send the Messiah. At that time, the Creator alone, without any human being lifting a hand or saying a word, will bring us together and take us out of exile. He will likewise establish universal peace among all mankind and all will serve Him in good will.

Some religious Jews, confused by Zionist propaganda quote Biblical verses that state that G-d gave the children of Israel the Holy Land. They overlook, unfortunately, those verses which say that He took it away due to our sins. They further ignore those prophecies which explicitly describe the last exile's conclusion as a Divine, not a human process.

The Creator has commanded every Jew to follow the ways of peace and to be loyal to the country where he lives.

Torah true Jewry waits patiently for the Messianic redemption. They have nothing to do with any kind of pseudo "Jewish State" and its aggressions against other peoples. They have a deep sympathy for the plight of the Palestinians who have suffered the most from Zionism's false teachings and barbaric actions. The Zionist state is not a Jewish state. The Zionists alone are the only ones responsible for their actions. Authentic Jewry has and will continue to oppose the very existence of this blasphemous state.

May all mankind witness the true redemption.

A Rabbi's perspective, it only goes for less than 2 mins.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QfTkqfMpxb0

To be anti Zionist is NOT anti-semetic. To be against the Israeli occupation does NOT mean that a person has forgotten or does not care about the Nazi genocide of the Jews.

A perspective from a 86yr old holocaust survivor; Dr. Hajo Meyer



“My name is Hajo Meyer, I was born in August 1924 in Beilefeld, western Germany. And so I am 86 years old. And I had to leave Germany in January 1939 because from November 1938 on I was not allowed to go to school anymore. When in the Netherlands I made my entrance examination to the university still under the German occupation. They allowed that for Jews to be done. Even the German occupation allowed it, under a special setting of Jewish state examination. It occurred in April ’43. Then I went underground and about a year later I was caught and brought to Auschwitz and survived 10 months in Auschwitz.

I was educated in the tradition of enlightened Reform Judaism, without any relation to the prescripts of Halacha [Jewish religious law] but just to the socio-cultural heritage and the enlightened parts of Judaism…

[In my view] this ethical tradition is absolutely contrary to everything which is at the basis of Zionism. Because Zionism was created… at the end of the 19th Century, and in that era it was commonplace to be colonialist, to be racist, to be super-nationalist, to adore the nation-state–so the idea of France for the French, Germany for the Germanics, and then some state for the Jews. This all formed the basis for Zionism.

Zionism and Judaism are contrary to each other. Because Judaism is universal and humane, and Zionism is exactly the opposite. It is very narrow, very nationalistic, racist, colonialist, and all this. There is no “National Judaism.” There is Zionism and there is Judaism, and they are completely different.

[Zionism] has nothing to do with Judaism. Because Judaism, as I learned it– the Reform Movement– is highly, highly ethical. And so, you cannot connect Zionism with “highly ethical.” Inter-human ethics is a product of evolution. So we have a center in our brain that gives us the feeling of empathy so if we see someone suffer we get the impulse, “Can I help you?”

That is a very important insight that I saw in Auschwitz—that if a dominant group wants to dehumanize others, so as the Nazis wanted to dehumanize me, this dominant group must first be dehumanized in a way themselves by diminishing their empathy due to propaganda and indoctrination to enable them to be as cruel as some were. But the same holds nowadays for [Israel's propaganda and dehumanization].

This fact has been documented by at least–I know two impressive documents. One is by Shulamit Aloni who was once Minister of Education in Israel [explaining] how hateful, how racist, how depreciating the school books in Israel talk about the Palestinians. And Nurit Peled-Elhanan, who is a pedagogue in the University of Tel Aviv, has made a big study of the school books and she’s appalled by the racism which is taught to children in Israel.

And then you get, nowadays, the rabbis– especially the Army rabbis– get evermore aggressive and tell the soldiers it’s a mitzvah, so it’s your duty to kill every Palestinian you see… They are so aggressive. They are so racist. And look, it’s so–I am appalled, I am deeply appalled how hateful, how dehumanized [they are] that they do not see any human aspect in any Palestinian anymore. It’s terrible.

[For a long time] I still believed more or less the propaganda lies from the Israeli side. I mean, the real eye-opener, how it happened for me– I’m afraid it was quite late– especially about the ’48 war, was Ilan Pappé’s work, The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine.

Before that– Look, they have such a strong propaganda machine that it takes you a hell of a lot of study and knowledge and travel to the Occupied Palestinian Territories in order to see what the reality is. So it took me quite awhile. I mean I started to get critical with Begin and Sharon, and Sabra and Shatila, etc. and then my eyes started to open. So it took me quite awhile.

The Zionists have not any right whatsoever to use the Holocaust for any purpose because they consider people like me–they talked about us as “useless human material.” So, first of all I’m not useless. And secondly, I am human, but I am not material. So I feel deeply, deeply–I could feel if I did not despise these people who use such words so much, I could feel offended…

And like Netanyahu did the other day in the General Assembly of the United Nations, he used the number on my arm– or the number on our arms– to defend a coming attack on Iran. They have nothing to do with each other…

[Zionists] have given up everything that has to do with humanity, with empathy, for one thing: the state. The “blood and soil,” just like the Nazis. I learned in school about blood and soil, and that’s exactly their idea, too.

The journalist who reports from Berlin for the Jerusalem Post, I think it’s Mr. [Weinthal], he has a spotlight on me. So I have the honor of being quoted as an anti-Semite or whatever in the Jerusalem Post, and I cannot get higher honors than to be one of the people like Jimmy Carter, or Noam Chomsky, or Norman Finkelstein, and former [Dutch] Prime Minister Dries van Agt. So I’m very proud to be an anti-Semite.

Because formerly an anti-Semite was somebody who hated Jews because they were Jews and due to their Jewish nature and their race… Nowadays an anti-Semite is somebody who is hated by a certain type of Zionist. Like one of the important Nazi leaders, Göring, said, “I determine who is a Jew.” And so the Zionists determine who is an anti-Semite. And as I say, I’m proud to be one of those.”

from the link in Melanie's post:
The Creator gave us the Holy Land thousands of years ago. Yet, when we sinned, He took it away and sent us into exile. Since that time our task is to wait for Him to send the Messiah. At that time, the Creator alone, without any human being lifting a hand or saying a word, will bring us together and take us out of exile. He will likewise establish universal peace among all mankind and all will serve Him in good will.

The problem with this, is that these same Jews didn't recognize that their messiah has come. They are blinded right now. And since they don't see that Christ is their messiah, they can't see that Israel becoming a nation, is part of the prophecies.

well thanks Gman for derailing the whole thing. You succeeded. This thread is now about legitimacy of the state. I'm out of this one.

neo-x wrote:well thanks Gman for derailing the whole thing. You succeeded. This thread is now about legitimacy of the state. I'm out of this one.

But Neo,

I did get a chance to look at the links you posted. I think you and I probably still disagree about who's at fault, but you did get me to search a little deeper. As any war, it's just a horrible situation. Especially for civilians.

AND my question was ignored: How does Israel stop the constant rocket fire launched at its civilian population without returning fire to the same locations from where they are launched? If Hamas launches from civilian areas, and as they know this will make the very same such areas targets, then whose hands is the bloodshed from the RESULTING, RETURN fire on? Because Hamas engages from civilian areas, does that mean Israel should simply ignore and absorb it? AS God gave Israel this land FOREVER and as Hamas considers it given to them by Allah and is dedicated to not simply winning the land back but also destroying all of the Jews and their nation, how does, how can Israel ever satisfy such people? Because giving Hamas what it wants is to commit suicide! and so Hamas and the militant Islamist amongst them will never stop attacking Israel.

RickD wrote:

neo-x wrote:well thanks Gman for derailing the whole thing. You succeeded. This thread is now about legitimacy of the state. I'm out of this one.

But Neo,

I did get a chance to look at the links you posted. I think you and I probably still disagree about who's at fault, but you did get me to search a little deeper. As any war, it's just a horrible situation. Especially for civilians.

Rick, I agree with you its Hamas' fault, I just don't think its just them alone, I think there is significant contribution from both sides. But I understand you and I know and respect that you and I both are saddened by this loss of life.

RickD wrote:

Lonewolf wrote:

1) GOD gave that land to Israel
2) Only God can take it away
3) He says that will never happen (permanently, although there were exiled periods due to Israel's sin)

Philip, it is exactly that ^ ^ way of looking at the conflict that I believe some of you are doing., you are injecting religion, per say, into the conflict, and if that is the case, how then can you hold accountable the muslims for their faith in what their suppodsedly fighting for?

you can't have one side claiming is their god given right, and then tell the other side that their claim from their god is not legit.

Lonewolf,

I haven't really brought up the notion that God gave the land to Israel, so it's theirs. But, are you seriously using the argument that the god of the Koran is on equal grounds with the God of the bible. If what Jehovah says, is equal to what Allah says?

Yahweh not Jehovah Rick.

Silvertusk wrote:

RickD wrote:

Lonewolf wrote:

1) GOD gave that land to Israel
2) Only God can take it away
3) He says that will never happen (permanently, although there were exiled periods due to Israel's sin)

Philip, it is exactly that ^ ^ way of looking at the conflict that I believe some of you are doing., you are injecting religion, per say, into the conflict, and if that is the case, how then can you hold accountable the muslims for their faith in what their suppodsedly fighting for?

you can't have one side claiming is their god given right, and then tell the other side that their claim from their god is not legit.

Lonewolf,

I haven't really brought up the notion that God gave the land to Israel, so it's theirs. But, are you seriously using the argument that the god of the Koran is on equal grounds with the God of the bible. If what Jehovah says, is equal to what Allah says?

Yahweh not Jehovah Rick.

I'm not following you Silvertusk. What are you saying?
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah

http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/ ... or-jehovah

And this:
http://jesusisyhwh.blogspot.com/2012/12 ... h.html?m=1

B. W. wrote:
Next regarding the false claim that the nation of Israel is illegitimate and came about not by God's hand but by human beings more powerful than sovereign God...

Isaiah 11:11, 12 says this: It shall come to pass in that day That the Lord shall set His hand again the second time To recover the remnant of His people who are left, From Assyria and Egypt, From Pathros and Cush, From Elam and Shinar, From Hamath and the islands of the sea. 12 He will set up a banner for the nations, And will assemble the outcasts of Israel, And gather together the dispersed of Judah From the four corners of the earth. NKJV

So what if God chose the ubber-rich to to help the Jews establish a homeland form midst the countries that desired to kill them all 1933-1945. Now, what I am hearing form some on this board is that God had nothing to do with Israel becoming a nation again the second time because it was those like the Rothchild's who made it happen - not God. If then if that is true then, how can God really be sovereign? A sparrow cannot fall unless by God's design yet a whole nation can appear without God's hand in it at all? I am thankful God is not evil but rather will rid the world of true evil soon enough - come Lord Jesus.

Thank you Bryan for pointing that out.. As well as FL, Rick, Phillip and others for their standing on the word of G-d. And yes ultimately G-d owns the land, Leviticus 25:23, Deuteronomy 32:43 and has given this land to the descendents of Isaac and Jacob, Genesis 15:18, Genesis 17:19, Genesis 28:13-15, 1 Chronicles 16:15-18, Jeremiah 31:35-37 and many more as a PERMANENT covenant.

God calls back the Israel people from the nations in modern times today as you have properly stated.. Isaiah 11:10-12, Isaiah 43:4-7, Jeremiah 16:14-15, Jeremiah 23:7-8, Ezekiel 11:16-17, Ezekiel 36:22-24, Ezekiel 37:1-12, Amos 9:14-15.

And if many think that is going to be bad news for the Arabs, think again.. G-d is also PRO ARAB. Of course He is, G-d created them also and they are also part of His plan. Both Jews and Arabs will worship G-d or Yeshua together in the land of Israel as the Bible clearly records...

Isaiah 19:23 In that day there will be a highway from Egypt to Assyria. The Assyrians will go to Egypt and the Egyptians to Assyria. The Egyptians and Assyrians will worship together.

melanie wrote:There are many many Jews against Zionism and the Jewish state.
JUDAISM IS NOT ZIONISM.
The most thought provoking information I have come across regarding this issue is from the Jewish people themselves. They provide an insight that too many of us are lacking. Google Jews against Zionism. Read their stories, see how they view through the eyes of their religion this Zionist aggression, which it seems we agree is secular in nature.

Of course not all Jews are Zionists.. Everyone already knows that. Not all Christians are Zionists either.. So what?? Many other Jews and Christians think that sexual immorality is fine to practice too... But are they following G-d's word the Bible? Of course not..

Futhermore.. Israel is NOT a religious nation. It's a SECULAR nation happens to house many faiths whether it's Jewish, Islam, Christianity, Atheism, Hinduism and the likes..

This war is NOT against the Gazan people either who simply want to live in peace with Israel. It's against these radical Hamas extremists that not only want to kill Jews but also the Arabs that oppose them.

melanie wrote:Exert taken from 'Jews united against Zionism' website

JUDAISM AND ZIONISM ARE NOT THE SAME THING
We would like to take a few minutes of your time to prevent you from making a terrible mistake that may have disastrous results for many.

You have always without a doubt heard and read much about the political crises in the Middle East in which the State of Israel plays a central role. This is, in fact, an ongoing series of crises with potential to bring the greatest misfortune on the entire world. Tragically many believe that Zionism and Judaism are identical. Thus they conclude that the entire Jewish people is responsible for the actions of the Zionist government and the world crises which emanates from it. This is a Grave Error!

The truth is that the Jewish faith and Zionism are two very different philosophies. They are as opposite as day and night. The Jewish people have existed for thousands of years. In their two thousand years of Divinely decreed exile no Jew ever sought to end this exile and establish independent political sovereignty anywhere. The people's sole purpose was the study and fulfillment of the Divine commandments of the Torah.

The Zionist movement created the Israeli state. The latter is a persuasion less than one hundred years old. Its essential goal was and is to change the nature of the Jewish people from that of a religious entity to a political movement. From Zionism's inception the spiritual leaders of the Jewish people stood in staunch opposition to it.

To this day Torah Jewry remains forever loyal to its faith. Zionists want the world to believe that they are the representatives of the entire Jewish people. This is false! The Jewish people never chose them as their leaders.

The Zionists have deceived many well meaning Jewish people via terror, trickery and false propaganda. They have at their disposal the use of a nearly universally subservient media. Whoever attempts to criticize them puts his livelihood and, at times, his very life in danger.

However, despite the media blackout and easy resort to terror the simple truth remains unrefuted and irrefutable: ACCORDING TO THE JEWISH FAITH AND TORAH LAW THE JEWISH PEOPLE ARE FORBIDDEN TO HAVE THEIR OWN STATE WHILE AWAITING THE MESSIANIC ERA!

The Creator gave us the Holy Land thousands of years ago. Yet, when we sinned, He took it away and sent us into exile. Since that time our task is to wait for Him to send the Messiah. At that time, the Creator alone, without any human being lifting a hand or saying a word, will bring us together and take us out of exile. He will likewise establish universal peace among all mankind and all will serve Him in good will.

Some religious Jews, confused by Zionist propaganda quote Biblical verses that state that G-d gave the children of Israel the Holy Land. They overlook, unfortunately, those verses which say that He took it away due to our sins. They further ignore those prophecies which explicitly describe the last exile's conclusion as a Divine, not a human process.

The Creator has commanded every Jew to follow the ways of peace and to be loyal to the country where he lives.

Torah true Jewry waits patiently for the Messianic redemption. They have nothing to do with any kind of pseudo "Jewish State" and its aggressions against other peoples. They have a deep sympathy for the plight of the Palestinians who have suffered the most from Zionism's false teachings and barbaric actions. The Zionist state is not a Jewish state. The Zionists alone are the only ones responsible for their actions. Authentic Jewry has and will continue to oppose the very existence of this blasphemous state.

May all mankind witness the true redemption.

Complete rubbish... The Jewish people have always lived in the land of Israel for centuries and are not occupiers (they didn't create it). This map shows Jewish-owned land as of 31 March 1945, (prior to it becoming a nation in 1948) including land owned in full, shared in undivided land and State Lands under concession. As you can clearly see, the Jewish people were already there and had been coming back to Israel in large numbers since the 1800's. Jews were forced there by the holocaust only to face another holocaust again??

I'm still trying to figure out what happened to the "Illuminati" belief.. Now its the Jewish Zionists fault for starting the state of Israel..