Evidence for God from Science

FlawedIntellect wrote:

outlaw wrote:No matter how you want to explain it, making rules in regards to how slave owners are punished for treating their slaves is immoral as far as im concerned. The fact that rules were made is enough it doesn't matter whether it's if or when they die or what the punishment is it's irrelevant.

Stop telling me i don't understand, i understand perfectly fine, and i still think it's immoral. Do you understand that?

Is it just me, or was Outlaw claiming that it's immoral to create rules that punish the act of seriously harming/mistreating another person?

I think what he was trying to say is that it was immoral fro God to ALLOW slavery to exist and that makes rules to deal with it doesn't change that fact that He should never have allowed it to exist.
At least I HOPE that was what he was trying to say, LOL !

So, assuming that was it, lets analyse that:
God should never have allowed slavery to exist.
In other words, people should never have been allowed to CHOOSE to make another person a slave and a person would NOT be allowed to CHOOSE to become one as an option to pay off a debt.
God, according to this view, would be a dictator God, controlling the human ability to choose ( violation of free will) to do something that COULD be wrong ( one can argue that there was nothing wrong with indentured servitude to pay of a debt). It seems that some people WANT a God that decides for ALL ( since He must decide for all because decide for some is not fair) WHAT is to be done, WHEN and HOW ( why is of course irrelevant).
Nice God that some people want...

I was making a joke, Paul. X3 I was poking fun at how poorly he worded that.

Needless to say, his insistence that he understood is hilariously contrary to the actual content of his responses.

Anyway, I already know that he was arguing that God allowing for slavery would be immoral.

But the thing is, God ultimately is not responsible for the enslavement of people. People are the ones at fault. Furthermore, it can take time and patience to wean people off of their old habits and ways.

Plus, God making rules regarding slave treatment could be argued as God recognizing slaves as people of equal value (to Him) as their masters, yet facing different circumstances. Plus, what's the big fuss about working off a debt? So long as they're not being worked beyond their ability, it's not a problem. Additionally, the arrangement was temporary and IIRC, didn't the OT law encourage paying off someone else's debt without expecting anything in return, to reduce the need to become a slave?

In the Bible Book of Philemon, some translations more accurately use the word "bondservant" to describe the type of slavery practiced in ancient Israel. There were often many people who found themselves in great poverty. And so, going into a 7-year committment of servitude was far better, for many, than the unpleasant alternatives.

As for modern times, "slavery" in ancient Israel might somewhat be compared to a modern commitment of military service: Once one has signed on to a stint of military service, the parameters and rules which they must obey are quite strict. They must do what they are told and when. And it's never a question of WHETHER one is going to do as instructed, as there are serious penalities and discipline for disobeying orders. Going awol will end in military prison. The trade-off is that you earn a modest pay and will be fed and sheltered for your entire military stint. And let's not forget the potential danger you might risk - even death - if you are sent to a war zone (again, against your wishes). But going in, recruits mostly know they are giving up their freedoms for a specific period. And so once one signs on, the military is pretty much dictates all they will do, 24-7. And this is why so many who enter the army or marines are from impoverished backgrounds - as, for them, it's often a better choice than starving, living on the streets, or remaining in some terrible situation. And it's only for a specific and defined period of time. It was much the same as a being a slave in ancient Israel.

Its pretty clear that the only people that use slavery in the ANE to somehow "prove" that God doesn't exist are those that don't fully understand slavery of those times AND don't understand the passages in the bible that address the issue of slavery.
Thy don't understand because they never studied the subject OR they don't understand because they simply don't want to.

This is from today John Frame's facebook status post:

Since Scripture, and the biblical way of salvation, are profoundly historical, theology must always be interested in history. Hence the important discipline of redemptive history (biblical theology). Other forms of historical study are also important: the history of the ancient near east, the history of the church, the general history of mankind. The history of the biblical period enables us far better to understand the Scriptures, and the post-biblical history helps us far better to apply the Word to our own times. The latter helps us both to avoid the mistakes of the past and to build on the foundations laid by those who have gone before.

A Bond servent and a maid servent were criminals that could be bought to do work for you to work off their dept to society like chain gangs kinda.These were not innocent people being sold into slavery they were criminals and yet God still showed them mercy and gave them a chance for redemption because you could not own one for more than 7 years,so God was showing mercy like he does with us.

abelcainsbrother wrote:A Bond servent and a maid servent were criminals that could be bought to do work for you to work off their dept to society like chain gangs kinda.These were not innocent people being sold into slavery they were criminals and yet God still showed them mercy and gave them a chance for redemption because you could not own one for more than 7 years,so God was showing mercy like he does with us.

How lovely of god allowing people to own others as property, like a working dog, for only 7 years and if they didn't have a wife and were provided one by their owner and they had children together, the slave was released after 7 years but the wife and children were kept by the slave owner, what a nice thing to do to separate a family. Im sorry but buying and selling people is wrong god. You were wrong god.

Stardust wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:A Bond servent and a maid servent were criminals that could be bought to do work for you to work off their dept to society like chain gangs kinda.These were not innocent people being sold into slavery they were criminals and yet God still showed them mercy and gave them a chance for redemption because you could not own one for more than 7 years,so God was showing mercy like he does with us.

How lovely of god allowing people to own others as property, like a working dog, for only 7 years and if they didn't have a wife and were provided one by their owner and they had children together, the slave was released after 7 years but the wife and children were kept by the slave owner, what a nice thing to do to separate a family. Im sorry but buying and selling people is wrong god. You were wrong god.

Really, how long are we supposed to put up with this. There's no conversation here, only insult after insult.

Somebody get rid of this ignorant rude troll please.

Stardust wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:A Bond servent and a maid servent were criminals that could be bought to do work for you to work off their dept to society like chain gangs kinda.These were not innocent people being sold into slavery they were criminals and yet God still showed them mercy and gave them a chance for redemption because you could not own one for more than 7 years,so God was showing mercy like he does with us.

How lovely of god allowing people to own others as property, like a working dog, for only 7 years and if they didn't have a wife and were provided one by their owner and they had children together, the slave was released after 7 years but the wife and children were kept by the slave owner, what a nice thing to do to separate a family. Im sorry but buying and selling people is wrong god. You were wrong god.

Outlaw came back on the forum a few days ago as this person - same IP address and we have our ways to confirm. Same style of writing and comments as well. Some folks may not think so, but there is grace shown here on this forum and then it is abused. We hope others can see why this individual was banned as outlaw previously.

Again, Muslims in certain countries condone certain kinds of slavery.

Christians and Jews do not. The biblical scriptures led to the abolition of slavery and that alone speaks volumes.

Outlaw's comment as stardust shows complete ignorance of facts.
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Lonewolf wrote:sir outlaw, that's just too much to read and still stay focused

The "Gish Gallop"!

Stardust wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:A Bond servent and a maid servent were criminals that could be bought to do work for you to work off their dept to society like chain gangs kinda.These were not innocent people being sold into slavery they were criminals and yet God still showed them mercy and gave them a chance for redemption because you could not own one for more than 7 years,so God was showing mercy like he does with us.

How lovely of god allowing people to own others as property, like a working dog, for only 7 years and if they didn't have a wife and were provided one by their owner and they had children together, the slave was released after 7 years but the wife and children were kept by the slave owner, what a nice thing to do to separate a family. Im sorry but buying and selling people is wrong god. You were wrong god.

Perhaps you think criminals should not be punished,these people broke the law and this is not much different than chain gangs except that instead of them working for the state they could be bought to work for you as punishment.

abelcainsbrother wrote:

Stardust wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:A Bond servent and a maid servent were criminals that could be bought to do work for you to work off their dept to society like chain gangs kinda.These were not innocent people being sold into slavery they were criminals and yet God still showed them mercy and gave them a chance for redemption because you could not own one for more than 7 years,so God was showing mercy like he does with us.

How lovely of god allowing people to own others as property, like a working dog, for only 7 years and if they didn't have a wife and were provided one by their owner and they had children together, the slave was released after 7 years but the wife and children were kept by the slave owner, what a nice thing to do to separate a family. Im sorry but buying and selling people is wrong god. You were wrong god.

Perhaps you think criminals should not be punished,these people broke the law and this is not much different than chain gangs except that instead of them working for the state they could be bought to work for you as punishment.

Sounds like a better system than anything today.

Slave: a person who is the legal property of another and is forced to obey them.

You know whether we like it or not, within a Capitalist system, we're all slaves.
All perhaps except those who manage to rise to the top (less than 1% perhaps??) and who set in motion their business affairs in an automated way.
Those who fall to the bottom, a growing number of young people, end up homeless and without much. Trampled on and forgotten by those on the pecking order above.

Take a step back, and see that we're all "products" of our society to a large degree. Our truly free options are limited. It is more a myth that we are truly free.
Only in Christ is one truly free... because freedom that counts is not attached to what is physical but what is spiritual.
But, the physical sure as heck does help in the now.

There were so many regulations around "slavery" in the OT that we're really talking about:
1) "social" system where those who have much to be obliged to those who have little, and
2) a "work" system where human right and safety rules were put in place to protect the well being of the "servant" class.

For example, just take a read over: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... avery.html

If a slave was abused then they were to be set free.
"Slaves" could run away and were to be sheltered (Deuteronomy 23:16).

So it seems, there were many loopholes for those who truly didn't want to be a slave, or looked after.

Unlike our "civilised societies" today who turn a blind eye and just allow people to die alone, unnoticed and unloved.
It's quite pathetic and even "preppy" that someone today would judge the Hebrewic society that existed 1000s of years ago, given what we have in our enlightened Western societies fails so many.

Stardust wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:A Bond servent and a maid servent were criminals that could be bought to do work for you to work off their dept to society like chain gangs kinda.These were not innocent people being sold into slavery they were criminals and yet God still showed them mercy and gave them a chance for redemption because you could not own one for more than 7 years,so God was showing mercy like he does with us.

How lovely of god allowing people to own others as property, like a working dog, for only 7 years and if they didn't have a wife and were provided one by their owner and they had children together, the slave was released after 7 years but the wife and children were kept by the slave owner, what a nice thing to do to separate a family. Im sorry but buying and selling people is wrong god. You were wrong god.

Yes, it is lovely that God allows us to decide for yourselves how we treat each other.

Matthew 19:7-8 "They say unto him,Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement,and to put her away? Jesus said unto them,Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives:but from the beginning it was not so.