Bio Logos Interviews Bill Nye (The Science Guy)

Discussion about scientific issues as they relate to God and Christianity including archaeology, origins of life, the universe, intelligent design, evolution, etc.
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Kurieuo
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Re: Bio Logos Interviews Bill Nye (The Science Guy)

Post by Kurieuo »

Jac3510 wrote:I have a question that I hope someone can offer me a relatively basic answer for.

It seems to me that a ToE necessarily predicts perfect hierarchical nesting. Thus, the observation of such nesting in nature provides a powerful argument in favor of the ToE, insofar as we have an important and fundamental validated prediction. But the flip side suggests that the modus tollens here provides an equally strong defeater of the ToE. Thus, observations of violations of such nesting actually work as a violation or disconfirmation of that same prediction. If, on the other hand, such violations of the nesting prediction are not defeaters or disconfirmers, then is the basic prediction no prediction at all insofar as it becomes unfalsifiable?

If I've understood the basic approach, then I wonder what the common response is to the widely recognized examples of violations of the nesting principle? This is one of the things that makes me skeptical of evolutionary claims. Clearly, however, people have encountered this problem and I have to believe they have addressed it. So can someone give me an overview of the general overview to how such exceptions are approached? I think knowing that would help ensure I don't misrepresent the theory in either my own thinking or my discussion about it with others.

Thanks in advance
Hi Jac,

Whether there are violations, that is the question isn't it?

Many would say there are none they have come across that would falsify common descent (and as such evolution).
For example, Dennis Jones who I linked to previously. He's also actually agnostic as to intelligent design and open to the complex and specified information seen in the natural order.

I really found his article on universal common descent a good read. Very detailed.
He shows some courtesy and tactfulness in his writing. Not just out to drive a knife in if you know what I mean (at least that's what I felt).
Would highly recommend it to you or anyone else.
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Re: Bio Logos Interviews Bill Nye (The Science Guy)

Post by Morny »

Kurieuo wrote:I don't believe the nested hierarchies (circumstantial evidence) proves that common descent was via biological procreation only.
Yes, biological traits are "circumstantial evidence", or as scientists say, "evidence".

"Proves" is not in science's vocabulary. Evidence adds support/confidence to varying degrees (always less than 100%) for a hypothesis/theory.

I said that the hypothesis "includes the functionality of biological procreation". But if that is a hangup, I'll relax that hypothesis even further. Let the hypothesis of variation mean _anything_ that passes the source of novel variations down via the hypothesis of bifurcating descent. So for organism A, instead of biological procreation, let God take DNA mutations from His workbench to construct organism B, which is like A, except for those new mutations.

In any event, the observed trait evidence still supports that specific kind of God-assisted common descent hypothesis, which is OK with me.

The evidence does not support God free-lancing by making organisms outside of the one nested hierarchy pattern. If your Theistic Evolution agrees with that, then for all practical purposes, we agree.
Kurieuo wrote:There's this idea going around that one must believe this or that.
I prefer to focus on what I consider the important things and withhold from choosing.
Common descent is the clearest, the most supported, and the most central sub-theme of evolution. Withholding acknowledgment or understanding of its evidentiary support, makes discussing anything about the rest of evolution unproductive at best.
Kurieuo wrote:Biologists do indeed use their faith, because it is their passions that drive them to be intrigued by and try understand the world.
I said "Biologists don't use their faith ... to make scientific determinations", not "... as some type of inspiration." Huge difference. Giving credit to coffee would be probably be more accurate.
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Re: Bio Logos Interviews Bill Nye (The Science Guy)

Post by Kurieuo »

Morny wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:I don't believe the nested hierarchies (circumstantial evidence) proves that common descent was via biological procreation only.
Yes, biological traits are "circumstantial evidence", or as scientists say, "evidence".

"Proves" is not in science's vocabulary. Evidence adds support/confidence to varying degrees (always less than 100%) for a hypothesis/theory.

I said that the hypothesis "includes the functionality of biological procreation". But if that is a hangup, I'll relax that hypothesis even further. Let the hypothesis of variation mean _anything_ that passes the source of novel variations down via the hypothesis of bifurcating descent. So for organism A, instead of biological procreation, let God take DNA mutations from His workbench to construct organism B, which is like A, except for those new mutations.

In any event, the observed trait evidence still supports that specific kind of God-assisted common descent hypothesis, which is OK with me.

The evidence does not support God free-lancing by making organisms outside of the one nested hierarchy pattern. If your Theistic Evolution agrees with that, then for all practical purposes, we agree.
We agree.

Also, I believe I can see where some confusion entered into our discussion.
Please bear with me for a moment, as I'd like to try a clarify what Theistic Evolution -- and I understand it isn't science but more of a philosophical position but it will help in discussions. So this is something I'd just like to help clarify.

Theistic Evolution says God was responsible for the initial life seed rather than no god. That's all.
This seed of life could have been planned to unfold naturally from the moment our universe was created at say the "Big Bang", or God could have directly created it at a time when Earth was ready to have life. From there, according to Theistic Evolution, God didn't again meddle or intervene.
So that initial seed of life (whether it's a single cell life or what-have-you) then evolved naturally via evolutionary processes through procreation, natural selection acting on random mutations and so on.

Progressive Creation on the other hand says that God actually intervened with each new kind of organism that was brought into existence.
On this view, God could potentially use an existing organism, and add something more to it to produce something new. Thus, fulfilling your more relaxed definition.
Progressive Creation is very different view of God's involvement (a more direct involvement) compared to Theistic Evolution which accepts all of evolutionary science.

For the purpose of this discussion, I'm open to either position as a Christian.

"Theistic Evolution" would agree with you in total.
"Progressive Creation" would require your more relaxed definition without "via procreation".
Morny wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:There's this idea going around that one must believe this or that.
I prefer to focus on what I consider the important things and withhold from choosing.
Common descent is the clearest, the most supported, and the most central sub-theme of evolution. Withholding acknowledgment or understanding of its evidentiary support, makes discussing anything about the rest of evolution unproductive at best.
Indeed, it seems quite strong. To be honest, I had previously considered it more suspect and not really that strong.
But our discussion here on nested hierarchies and reading that article I previously linked to, has made me think on where I really do sit in relation to common descent.
Morny wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:Biologists do indeed use their faith, because it is their passions that drive them to be intrigued by and try understand the world.
I said "Biologists don't use their faith ... to make scientific determinations", not "... as some type of inspiration." Huge difference. Giving credit to coffee would be probably be more accurate.
Fair enough.
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Re: Bio Logos Interviews Bill Nye (The Science Guy)

Post by Morny »

Kurieuo wrote:But our discussion here on nested hierarchies and reading that article I previously linked to, has made me think on where I really do sit in relation to common descent.
Your excellent hyperlink explaining common descent is at the perfect level for people like us here to understand the concepts and evidence.
Kurieuo wrote:Theistic Evolution says [...]
Progressive Creation [...]
For the purpose of this discussion, I'm open to either position as a Christian.
The key idea is whether a particular view makes scientifically testable predictions. If not, you're safe, even though strident atheists will still berate you.

My view is that the evidence fits so well with the hypothesis, why bother adding God to do diddling beyond known physics, chemistry, etc.. Isn't He already busy enough with congressional Republicans and Democrats?

Via Occam's Razor, I would sympathize with the minimalist engineer who responds to the question of whether the glass is half full or half empty with:
"The glass is twice the size it needs to be."
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Re: Bio Logos Interviews Bill Nye (The Science Guy)

Post by Kurieuo »

Why would Atheists berate me? Indeed they would, but I'm not phased about being a minority and picked on.
Although it seems odd to berate something that can't be other than what is determined by the physical and material world.
How is it that I have control over what I believe when I am physically determined by atoms and molecules bouncing around? ;)

Strong corroboration of UCD is an important part in supporting the natural evolution of all life.
Another part of the issue for me that needs solving is with the natural mechanisms.
This is something that hasn't been agreed upon with any certainty.

Now I'm really open to all natural mechanisms and believe I'm reasonable in following the evidence.
But I don't believe there is, nor can I fathom, adequate natural mechanisms to explain the new and complex biological information to go from one species, genus, family etc to the next.
I'm aware of all the often stated ones, and even some that many typical Atheists probably aren't aware to, but they don't cut for me.

UCD explains existing related and common information, but the other side is how does the "new" information come about?
Especially now we're aware to the cellular level and things like DNA, mRNA and like.

Further, there is actually one testable prediction with the Progressive Creation view to do with psudeogenes.
If God is involved with creating new life from previous organisms then it makes sense for God to keep developed resistances that are advantageous to the new life being created.
HOWEVER, it doesn't make as much sense for God to keep useless or remnant code that has no real purpose.
Therefore, unless there is good reason for them, we would expect any inherited biological information by design to be free of junk DNA and vestiges.

A prediction of Progressive Creation then is that as scientific knowledge advances we should expect to find purposes to "psuedogenes", "vestigial" organs, endogenous retroviruses and the like that are passed on from one species to the next. This then acts as scientific confirmation of design and PC in particular. Not proof, but confirmation.

I will re-clarify again here that I'm only talking of Progressive Creation above.
Theistic Evolution on the other hand accepts evolution is every way as much as philosophical Naturalists do.
Just ask Neo-X and PaulS here on this board. They only differ in philosophical worldviews.
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Re: Bio Logos Interviews Bill Nye (The Science Guy)

Post by PaulSacramento »

I would only add that TE states that God is the sustainer of all.
It's not that God created life with the ability to evolve and adapt, its that God sustains all existence and it is in THAT sustaining that life CAN evolve and adapt.
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Re: Bio Logos Interviews Bill Nye (The Science Guy)

Post by Audie »

PaulSacramento wrote:I would only add that TE states that God is the sustainer of all.
It's not that God created life with the ability to evolve and adapt, its that God sustains all existence and it is in THAT sustaining that life CAN evolve and adapt.
In science and law, we eschew facts not in evidence.

Why is it always ok in religion?
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Re: Bio Logos Interviews Bill Nye (The Science Guy)

Post by Storyteller »

Science and law deal with the natural laws I guess, religion deals with the supernatural. God is a philosphical question not a scientific one.
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Re: Bio Logos Interviews Bill Nye (The Science Guy)

Post by Audie »

Storyteller wrote:Science and law deal with the natural laws I guess, religion deals with the supernatural. God is a philosphical question not a scientific one.
I was referring to all the "facts" that people invent about said god(s).
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Re: Bio Logos Interviews Bill Nye (The Science Guy)

Post by Storyteller »

Bit of a sweeping statement Audie.

I know that for me, God is a fact. Or a personal truth if you like. You know God usn't a fact to you. So who's wrong?

I would never say you were wrong, so it must be a fact but I wouldn't say I was wrong either.

I honestly don't know how anyone could not, on any level, feel God. Yet there are people who don't feel Him. Why not? Does that mean that those of us who have faith are deluded?

There are many scientists tgat accept the idea of God, is this some kind of evidence in His favour?

The only fact I absolutely KNOW about God is that He exists, but again, that's my own personal truth.
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Re: Bio Logos Interviews Bill Nye (The Science Guy)

Post by Audie »

Storyteller wrote:Bit of a sweeping statement Audie.

I know that for me, God is a fact. Or a personal truth if you like. You know God usn't a fact to you. So who's wrong?

I would never say you were wrong, so it must be a fact but I wouldn't say I was wrong either.

I honestly don't know how anyone could not, on any level, feel God. Yet there are people who don't feel Him. Why not? Does that mean that those of us who have faith are deluded?

There are many scientists tgat accept the idea of God, is this some kind of evidence in His favour?

The only fact I absolutely KNOW about God is that He exists, but again, that's my own personal truth.
Im referring to "facts" such as what a god can or cant do, what it likes, etc.
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Re: Bio Logos Interviews Bill Nye (The Science Guy)

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It likes us it seems.
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Re: Bio Logos Interviews Bill Nye (The Science Guy)

Post by Audie »

Kurieuo wrote:It likes us it seems.
are you proposing to post purported facts about your hypothetical god?
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Re: Bio Logos Interviews Bill Nye (The Science Guy)

Post by Danieltwotwenty »

Kurieuo wrote:It likes us it seems.
I would say perfectly loves us, potato.
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.
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Re: Bio Logos Interviews Bill Nye (The Science Guy)

Post by Kurieuo »

Audie wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:It likes us it seems.
are you proposing to post purported facts about your hypothetical god?
I believe we can see care taken in God's design of the world.
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