Evidence for God from Science

By the way, if Adam and Eve have incorruptible bodies after their deaths, how would you know it was them you found ? ...

Don't look it up ... they got no belly buttons !

Rick.... I love you

JLA.... I would rather be wrong and be me than act like you have. There is nothing wrong with arguing your case but to be rude and offensive? You won't prove anything like that.

Audie... yeah, I have woken myself from nightmares but having lived through a one I think I kinda know I'm dreaming. Is that self awareness?

Dont forget tho yourevagnostic which is way worse than atheist

EssentialSacrifice wrote:By the way, if Adam and Eve have incorruptible bodies after their deaths, how would you know it was them you found ? ...

Don't look it up ... they got no belly buttons !

Took me a while.......

I guess demented minds think alike!

... No, I going with demented ... there's something going on in here.... explainable ... but content.

EssentialSacrifice wrote:

I guess demented minds think alike!

... No, I going with demented ... there's something going on in here.... explainable ... but content.

You are both absolutely bats.


But I do love you so

Interesting discussion, but I'm still not sure why Adam must have been from 6000 years ago. Why not longer?

http://www.nature.com/news/genetic-adam ... me-1.13478
Seems like science might be getting on the right path (optimistic I am)

ryanbouma wrote:Interesting discussion, but I'm still not sure why Adam must have been from 6000 years ago. Why not longer?

The 4000 BC to 6000 BC time frame comes from two sources that line up pretty closely.
1. The first evidence is the internal Scriptural evidence. Depending on how you do the math and whether you use Masoretic text or Septuagint numbers the math will place Adam and Eve somewhere between 4000 and 6000 years before Christ. (And yes I am aware of the possibilities of gaps in the geneologies)
2. The second piece of evidence is the archaeological and anthropological evidence in the Mesopotamian region. Prior to the Neolithic era humans in the Levant and Mesopotamia had not advanced past the hunter gatherer stage. When you look at Genesis 2-4 you see agriculture, domestication of animals, building cities, bronze and iron working... and then you're building an ark in Genesis 6...all of which places the events of Genesis 2-4 after the start of the Mesopotamian Neolithic era which began around 10,000 BC.
3. Cain building a city can pinpoint the time of Adam a little more precisely. The oldest Mesopotamian city that archaeology has uncovered is the pre-deluge city of Eridu which was founded around 5000 BC. If Adam's son built a city (or maybe even Eridu itself) in this general time frame then the archaeological and Scriptural evidence for the first appearance of cities in Mesopotamia coincide quite nicely at around 5000 BC.

That was the long version.

The short version is that the internal Scriptural evidence and the external archaeological evidence in ancient Mesopotamia both support a time frame of somewhere between 4000 BC and 6000 BC for the historical Adam.

In Christ

DBowling wrote:

ryanbouma wrote:Interesting discussion, but I'm still not sure why Adam must have been from 6000 years ago. Why not longer?

The 4000 BC to 6000 BC time frame comes from two sources that line up pretty closely.
1. The first evidence is the internal Scriptural evidence. Depending on how you do the math and whether you use Masoretic text or Septuagint numbers the math will place Adam and Eve somewhere between 4000 and 6000 years before Christ. (And yes I am aware of the possibilities of gaps in the geneologies)
2. The second piece of evidence is the archaeological and anthropological evidence in the Mesopotamian region. Prior to the Neolithic era humans in the Levant and Mesopotamia had not advanced past the hunter gatherer stage. When you look at Genesis 2-4 you see agriculture, domestication of animals, building cities, bronze and iron working... and then you're building an ark in Genesis 6...all of which places the events of Genesis 2-4 after the start of the Mesopotamian Neolithic era which began around 10,000 BC.
3. Cain building a city can pinpoint the time of Adam a little more precisely. The oldest Mesopotamian city that archaeology has uncovered is the pre-deluge city of Eridu which was founded around 5000 BC. If Adam's son built a city (or maybe even Eridu itself) in this general time frame then the archaeological and Scriptural evidence for the first appearance of cities in Mesopotamia coincide quite nicely at around 5000 BC.

That was the long version.

The short version is that the internal Scriptural evidence and the external archaeological evidence in ancient Mesopotamia both support a time frame of somewhere between 4000 BC and 6000 BC for the historical Adam.

In Christ

Of course that only applies to his time AFTER the Garden of Eden.
We have NO idea how long he was in the Garden for.

PaulSacramento wrote: Of course that only applies to his time AFTER the Garden of Eden.
We have NO idea how long he was in the Garden for.

We don't know precisely adam and Eve were in the Garden, but I think Scripture does give us enough information to establish an upper limit.

Genesis 5:3 says
When Adam had lived one hundred and thirty years, he became the father of a son in his own likeness, according to his image, and named him Seth.

Now Seth was born after the death of Abel.
And Abel died after Adam and Eve were expelled from the Garden.

So if Seth was born when Adam had lived 130 years, then we can be fairly certain that Adam had lived less than 130 years when he and Eve were expelled from the Garden.

In Christ

DBowling wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote: Of course that only applies to his time AFTER the Garden of Eden.
We have NO idea how long he was in the Garden for.

We don't know precisely adam and Eve were in the Garden, but I think Scripture does give us enough information to establish an upper limit.

Genesis 5:3 says
When Adam had lived one hundred and thirty years, he became the father of a son in his own likeness, according to his image, and named him Seth.

Now Seth was born after the death of Abel.
And Abel died after Adam and Eve were expelled from the Garden.

So if Seth was born when Adam had lived 130 years, then we can be fairly certain that Adam had lived less than 130 years when he and Eve were expelled from the Garden.

In Christ

That only applies AFTER He and Eve left the Garden.
There is no reason to think that His life span before the expulsion was counted.

PaulSacramento wrote:

DBowling wrote: We don't know precisely adam and Eve were in the Garden, but I think Scripture does give us enough information to establish an upper limit.

Genesis 5:3 says
When Adam had lived one hundred and thirty years, he became the father of a son in his own likeness, according to his image, and named him Seth.

Now Seth was born after the death of Abel.
And Abel died after Adam and Eve were expelled from the Garden.

So if Seth was born when Adam had lived 130 years, then we can be fairly certain that Adam had lived less than 130 years when he and Eve were expelled from the Garden.

In Christ

That only applies AFTER He and Eve left the Garden.
There is no reason to think that His life span before the expulsion was counted.

Hi Paul... interesting statement...
I'm interested in why you believe that the statement "when Adam had lived 130 years" does not include the time that he lived in the Garden.

Thanks

DBowling wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:

DBowling wrote: We don't know precisely adam and Eve were in the Garden, but I think Scripture does give us enough information to establish an upper limit.

Genesis 5:3 says
When Adam had lived one hundred and thirty years, he became the father of a son in his own likeness, according to his image, and named him Seth.

Now Seth was born after the death of Abel.
And Abel died after Adam and Eve were expelled from the Garden.

So if Seth was born when Adam had lived 130 years, then we can be fairly certain that Adam had lived less than 130 years when he and Eve were expelled from the Garden.

In Christ

That only applies AFTER He and Eve left the Garden.
There is no reason to think that His life span before the expulsion was counted.

Hi Paul... interesting statement...
I'm interested in why you believe that the statement "when Adam had lived 130 years" does not include the time that he lived in the Garden.

Thanks

Well, there is no indication to believe otherwise.
We have no time frame given for the time IN the Garden, but we do have for time OUT of it.

Genesis 5 is an interesting lineage since it doesn't even mention Cain or Abel.
Of course typical ANE lineages only typically mentioned the eldest/only son to have decedents so...

I think that the statement of "when you eat of this, on this day you will die" leads us to the understanding that Adam's MORTAL life began at that moment.
Of course Nowhere is this explicitly stated.

PaulSacramento wrote: I think that the statement of "when you eat of this, on this day you will die" leads us to the understanding that Adam's MORTAL life began at that moment.
Of course Nowhere is this explicitly stated.

Let me provide some additional Scriptural support for a statement I made earlier in this thread.. I think Adam's mortal life actually began before he was placed in the Garden.
And I believe that Scriptural support for this statement can be found in Paul's famous resurrection chapter, 1 Corinthians 15.

Let me quote the relevant passage (NRSV).

42 So it is with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 Thus it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 But it is not the spiritual that is first, but the physical, and then the spiritual. 47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is[j] from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so are those who are of the dust; and as is the man of heaven, so are those who are of heaven. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we will[k] also bear the image of the man of heaven.

In this passage Paul is contrasting our current mortal bodies with the future immortal bodies that believers will receive at the Resurrection. The key verses to our discussion here are verses 45-48.
Notice how Paul describes Adam. In 1 Corinthians 15 Adam's original state is not an example of immortality it is an example of mortality. And what is relevant to this discussion are the concepts that Paul uses to describe Adam's mortality.
- Adam has a physical body.
- Adam was "from the earth, a man of dust"

Paul then draws the correlation from Adam's dusty/earthy mortal body to our dusty/earthy mortal bodies when he points out that
"we have borne the image of the man of dust"

In this passage our mortality is directly related to our being "men of dust". And in that we bear the image of Adam who was also a "man of dust".
When we look back at Genesis 2:7-8 we see that Adam was formed from dust, just like all of mankind is formed from dust (ie physically mortal), before he was placed in the Garden.

So when we look at what Paul says about Adam in 1 Corinthians 15, we do not get a picture of a man who was physically immortal before he was placed in the Garden. Rather we get the picture of a man who like us was 'formed from dust' (Psalm 103:14) and who Paul uses as an example of a perishable mortal body.

Which brings us back full circle to the Garden of Eden
What was the purpose of the Tree of Life in the Garden of Eden?
To extend the life of people who were "formed from dust" (ie physically mortal).

In Christ

supersonicthehedgehog wrote:http://www.nature.com/news/genetic-adam ... me-1.13478
Seems like science might be getting on the right path (optimistic I am)

Hi SSH,

I am very fascinated about any evidence that can give us additional insight into our genetic progenitors.

Mitochondrial Eve and Y-Chromosome Adam may be the genetic progenitors of all humanity, but I think we need to be careful of jumping to the conclusion that genetics has found the Biblical Adam and Eve... for a couple of reasons:
1. time - Mitochondrial Eve and Y-Chromosome Adam (according to your article) lived sometime around 180,000-200,000 BC. I believe that Scripture places the Biblical Adam and Eve somewhere around 4000-6000 BC. And I think that is just too big a difference in time for a few gaps in Biblical genealogies to explain away.
2. place - Mitochondrial Eve and Y-Chromosome Adam lived in Africa, but Scripture places the Biblical Adam and Eve in Mesopotamia.

So I just don't see how Mitochondrial Eve and Y-Chromosome Adam could possibly be the same people as the Biblical Adam and Eve.

However... I have recently been toying with the possibility that Genesis 1:26-27 might be a reference to Mitochondrial Eve and Y-Chromosome Adam in Africa somewhere around 150,000-200,000 BC while Genesis 2 tells the story of the historical Adam and Eve who lived in Mesopotamia somewhere around 4000-6000 BC.

Just a thought...
Thanks for your post

In Christ