Evidence for God from Science

The issue is not a difficult one, IF gentiles are under the Sabbath law then Paul and the Jerusalem council were NOT under the inspiration of the HS and they were WRONG about what Gentiles were suppose to do.

It is truly that simple.

PaulSacramento wrote: It is plain and simple, the commandment says to work 6 and rest 1, period.
Doesn't say anything other than that.
You are reading tradition into what is written.

The Bible is tradition, the traditions of the saints.

I don't know what you are reading from, but here it is in Exodus 20:8 "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy."
Then it goes on to qualify which day that is in verses 9 to 11. KJV.

1. But if we just take this verse alone, we don't have any sabbath or any day, but "THE Sabbath day." There can only be one Sabbath day and that's not any day.

2. "Remember" - it does not say make up or choose which one, but "Remember,"
Remember what? The one and only day God rested which was the seventh day of the creation week.
Why do we have a week anyway? because God has preserved it through all time.

3. It says "to KEEP it holy."
You can't keep a day holy which is not holy in the first place, can you?
And neither can you make any day holy, unless you are God.
If you are not God, then can it be holy? No.
Only a Holy God can make a Holy day.

God only blessed one day of the week, - the seventh day - Saturday.
Not only did God bless the day, He sanctified it, Genesis 2:3, or set it apart for holiness. God would not set a day apart if it could be miscalculated or lost by a Gregorian calendar.

Some would like to argue that the calendars are mixed up, it does not matter, all nations have the weekly cycle, regardless of their belief, location, language, culture, history or era. Week days have never changed globally.

He would only hallow the Sabbath as a memorial of His creation rest and a command, which is what He has done.
The only written thing by God's own finger, ever in this world, is the law, a copy of the one in heaven near the throne. Hardly a thing to be sniffed at.

PaulSacramento wrote:

God cannot bless His people unless they are willing to have the law written on their minds and hearts.

So, Christ's sacrifice was not enough??

No, Christ's sacrifice is the way it is done. It is the merits of His grace which restore obedience in man, by writing the law in their minds and in their hearts. There is nothing legalistic about the living Spirit of Christ within.

The whole reason Christ came was to restore the image of God in man, both in heart and mind on this earth and in body and environment when He returns soon.

Adam and Eve fell through disobedience, but Christ came to grant, forgiveness and the "POWER to become the sons" and daughters of God. John 1:12, 13. People that are born again, "not of the will of man," "not of works lest any man should boast," but of God.

Only the power of God through Christ can bring genuine heartfelt obedience.
We cannot be honest and separate love from obedience.
The obedience is to have faith in Him establishing righteousness in us, through the Mystery of godliness. So we are not left alone to try and be Christians, or to try and be good, or to try to stop this and that, with continuous failures and hypocrisy, but we are held up by the promises He gives. Not mere words, like men, but words of spiritual strength, and creative power.

PaulSacramento wrote:The issue is not a difficult one, IF gentiles are under the Sabbath law then Paul and the Jerusalem council were NOT under the inspiration of the HS and they were WRONG about what Gentiles were suppose to do.

It is truly that simple.

Text?

Starhunter wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote: It is plain and simple, the commandment says to work 6 and rest 1, period.
Doesn't say anything other than that.
You are reading tradition into what is written.

The Bible is tradition, the traditions of the saints.

I don't know what you are reading from, but here it is in Exodus 20:8 "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy."
Then it goes on to qualify which day that is in verses 9 to 11. KJV.

1. But if we just take this verse alone, we don't have any sabbath or any day, but "THE Sabbath day." There can only be one Sabbath day and that's not any day.

2. "Remember" - it does not say make up or choose which one, but "Remember,"
Remember what? The one and only day God rested which was the seventh day of the creation week.
Why do we have a week anyway? because God has preserved it through all time.

3. It says "to KEEP it holy."
You can't keep a day holy which is not holy in the first place, can you?
And neither can you make any day holy, unless you are God.
If you are not God, then can it be holy? No.
Only a Holy God can make a Holy day.

God only blessed one day of the week, - the seventh day - Saturday.
Not only did God bless the day, He sanctified it, Genesis 2:3, or set it apart for holiness. God would not set a day apart if it could be miscalculated or lost by a Gregorian calendar.

Some would like to argue that the calendars are mixed up, it does not matter, all nations have the weekly cycle, regardless of their belief, location, language, culture, history or era. Week days have never changed globally.

He would only hallow the Sabbath as a memorial of His creation rest and a command, which is what He has done.
The only written thing by God's own finger, ever in this world, is the law, a copy of the one in heaven near the throne. Hardly a thing to be sniffed at.

You are right, the bible is tradition and tradition for Christians is what?

You can't have it both ways, sorry.

Starhunter wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:The issue is not a difficult one, IF gentiles are under the Sabbath law then Paul and the Jerusalem council were NOT under the inspiration of the HS and they were WRONG about what Gentiles were suppose to do.

It is truly that simple.

Text?

You're kidding right?

Paul,

Debating with an atheist legalist is like playing chess with a monkey. No matter how good you are, the monkey will knock over all the pieces, defecate on the board and claim victory.

Starhunter wrote:...I'm just wondering why the ten commandments are considered to be the enemy?

It is not hat the Ten Commandments are enemies but rather how one interprets these as Commandments...

They are actually 10 responsibilities that point out our need for Jesus Christ as we all fail these responsibilities. For example, Jesus mentioned that just looking with sexually lust after another is the same as adultery... So Star - can you keep that commandment 100 percent of the time?

Likewise, the true Sabbath rest - Sabbath - is now our rest in Jesus Christ and his grace that enables to become more responsible to each other and to God. As the book of Hebrews 4:3-12 proclaims; we are living in the true Sabbath era of rest right now so that by God's grace we can learn to love God and others with our whole being and shed sins naturally by God's grace alone. If we continue to work real hard - we break commandments but when we learn responsibility by the means of God's grace, this releases us of our failures and dysfunctions and from this we become responsible and learn the love of God because we can only love God because he first loves us.

People try to show they love God by doing and working, never realizing that we can only love God when we recognize how he first loved us. That love was demonstrated freely and yet some teach one must work real hard to keep what is freely given. In working so hard to obey, one loses sight of God's love and seeks to earn significance by how many commandments they keep. Relationship with God is tossed out the window. Ancient Israel did that - lost sight of God in doing and doing and keeping but never actually in reality ever obeying. Have you?

Do you have any clue how the Lord never sleeps and slumbers? That the Sabbath rest began at the Resurrection and continues to this current now! The Lord lives forever making intercession for us so we can run boldly to the throne of Grace to find help in time of need - that means - we are in the era of His Sabbath right now. In the OT, the Priest and Levites always worked every Sabbath day, just as God, and their purpose foreshadowed God's purpose of covering his people with His unending life altering Grace. The OT Sabbath day was a foreshadow of God's era of grace today.

Observing a day of rest is wise but it is not confined to just Saturday - a day named and dedicated after a pagan deity/idol. Are we not called to flee idols?

Has the Saturday Sabbath become an idol to you - Star - a command?

Or does the true Spirit of the Lord of the Sabbath instruct his people to responsibly observe at least one day of rest a week of resting in the Lord whatever day is fitting (grace)?

I hope you do not think no one here takes a day of rest at all? That is not the case with most folks here. They meet the spiritual requirement of rest however and whenever God's grace leads them to rest.

I am sure glad hospitals and EMT services do not shut down on Saturday... how about you?

It is not that the Ten Commandments are the enemy, it is the legalistic interpretation that becomes an enemy of God that folks here are graciously convening to you. Do you see this?
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I agree BW, the rest we ought to take in Christ, on a daily and hourly basis, is an easy yoke for all His disciples.

"Learn of me for I am meek and lowly of heart" said Jesus.

Jesus willingly took the place of a servant, dependent as a man, on His heavenly Father. It is the lowest position, and the safest one, because there is nowhere to fall.

Anyone who stands on the merit of their own works does not have this meekness of Christ or His righteousness.
As the scriptures say - whoever falls on this rock is broken, but whoever does not will be crushed by it.

When Adam first walked, we know that he did not sin, because he was 'animated' so to speak, by pure motives.
As sinners we have no pure motives, so all our works are somehow self oriented and not genuinely altruistic at all.

But Christ in our hearts begins a new life and genuine love - a pure motive which begins to change the person from the inner man to the outer man.
If we continue within this inspiration, we are righteous in God's eyes, because we have placed ourselves into the hands of Christ who is daily committed to our salvation.

Christ will never lead someone to sin - and sin in the Bible, is defined as "the transgression of the law."

We sin because we are drawn away by our own habits and responses. It is a mistake that Jesus never made, and one which He will not make while living in connection with our hearts and minds.

We are to expect ourselves to be in harmony with those commandments which are the standard of the righteousness of God and not of man - which may include any sabbath of one's own choosing, an idol.

If we are aware of the truth and do not obey it, we are sinning deliberately, and there is no sacrifice sufficient to allow us to be saved in our sins. I am fully aware of the Sabbath, and I am learning how it should be kept, because I love God for introducing me to this beautiful time He has set apart for us.

Jesus came to save the human race from disobedience, and it is through faith in Him that we are able to obey. If not then Jesus cannot save us from sin and the Gospel is pointless, because it cannot affect any change.

If we strive to be faithful, we are not doing the works of the flesh.
Because the works of the flesh or saving oneself by their own works is an abomination in God's eyes.

In the OT when the gospel of grace was already present, it says "they walk in the sparks of their own kindling." They make rules which they think they can attain to and then call that righteous living. They live by what they can handle as sinners.
The Gospel is much more powerful than what sinners can conjure up.

When Israel was confronted with the walls of Canaan, they were up against impossible odds, and rather than having faith in Christ, they chose to doubt and to flee. If they had faith, they would have seen the destruction of those walls and conquered.

The sinner is faced with the impossible standard of God's righteousness, and when Christ says that in Him we may overcome, are we going to withdraw in unbelief or are we going to move forward in obedience and faith?

PaulSacramento wrote:

Starhunter wrote
The Bible is tradition, the traditions of the saints.

I don't know what you are reading from, but here it is in Exodus 20:8 "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy."
Then it goes on to qualify which day that is in verses 9 to 11. KJV.

1. But if we just take this verse alone, we don't have any sabbath or any day, but "THE Sabbath day." There can only be one Sabbath day and that's not any day.

2. "Remember" - it does not say make up or choose which one, but "Remember,"
Remember what? The one and only day God rested which was the seventh day of the creation week.
Why do we have a week anyway? because God has preserved it through all time.

3. It says "to KEEP it holy."
You can't keep a day holy which is not holy in the first place, can you?
And neither can you make any day holy, unless you are God.
If you are not God, then can it be holy? No.
Only a Holy God can make a Holy day.

God only blessed one day of the week, - the seventh day - Saturday.
Not only did God bless the day, He sanctified it, Genesis 2:3, or set it apart for holiness. God would not set a day apart if it could be miscalculated or lost by a Gregorian calendar.

Some would like to argue that the calendars are mixed up, it does not matter, all nations have the weekly cycle, regardless of their belief, location, language, culture, history or era. Week days have never changed globally.

He would only hallow the Sabbath as a memorial of His creation rest and a command, which is what He has done.
The only written thing by God's own finger, ever in this world, is the law, a copy of the one in heaven near the throne. Hardly a thing to be sniffed at.

You are right, the bible is tradition and tradition for Christians is what?

You can't have it both ways, sorry.

There is the traditions of God and the Bible, and the traditions of men. II Thessalonians 2:15 "Therefor brethren stand fast and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word or our epistle."

Why should we hold onto what has been taught in the past by God's chosen servants? verse 13, "because God... has chosen you to be saved through sanctification of the Spirit, and belief of the truth."

We are not to throw away the OT, let alone the ten commandments, or to say they are redundant and just good advice.
The commandments are not just good advice, they are spiritual and dangerous to play with, we cannot stand before God unless Jesus has sanctified our hearts to obey through the Spirit. There is no other way.

Inventing unspoken behaviors for a church group through social and moral pressures, and manipulations, is a perfect example of what not to be under - the rudiments of men as the Bible calls them.

You cannot serve God while serving mammon. You cannot keep any day holy, unless God has made it holy.

The traditions of man have made Sunday and Friday the holy days of the week. They do not have God's blessing pronounced on any day of the week except the Sabbath. Which by the way is a reminder of the Creator and His dominion.
The last book in the Bible calls us to "worship Him who made heaven and earth" - that's the Creator who is honored through the keeping of the Sabbath. Rev 14:7.

If SDA's are representative of those churches which have some true doctrine, then we ought to consider any other denomination which holds truth, as well. As RickD pointed out, the SDA's are fundamentally Christian.

I am sure that some of you have seen that even religions which are considered aberrant or non Christian, have some true doctrines which the main stream churches have missed.

If we study the origins of the mainstream Protestant/Christian churches, and look at the writings of their founders, we find that there has been a progression of truth or light, as the world emerged from the disparaging dark ages of persecution.

The reformation was the movement behind the acceptance and teachings of true Biblical and Christian doctrine, which must have been lost when the Bible was banned and people were hunted down and killed for it.

As the reformation became dominant, it also lost its zeal, and while that took place, hundreds of smaller churches sprang up, until the 1960's where I think a kind of saturation occurred.

Then we have the great evangelical movements, such as through Billy Graham, which helped bring about unity in Christendom, even while the mainstream churches were uniting in finance and doctrine. Today many Christian groups fall into the category of evangelical churches.

Still there are so many doctrines, and versions of them that there is little uniformity and agreement, even in one study group. It seems like everyone is making their own interpretation of doctrines. Surely, if the Bible is the guide, there would be greater unity?

Can anyone think of some examples of true doctrines which are taught in some churches, but not in others?

Starhunter, your selective and subjective view on what is to be observed and why ( like the SDA) is no better or no worse than anyone else.
This is what you seem to be failing to grasp.

PaulSacramento wrote:Starhunter, your selective and subjective view on what is to be observed and why ( like the SDA) is no better or no worse than anyone else.
This is what you seem to be failing to grasp.

That's right, I fail to grasp a lot of things. Knowledge is progressive, even in spiritual matters - as individuals and globally.

It's interesting that the beliefs which came to light with the reformation, began with the basics, - faith in Christ, no more idol worship, recognizing the Papacy as the Antichrist, no more penance (Martin Luther), Christ as the only priest to confess to, proper communion, the power of prayer and Bible study, personal ministry for Christ, charity work, no mass, baptism, prophecy, the second Advent, the ten commandments, the Sabbath, health and temperance, and knowledge of the mark of the beast. You can see all the different protestant denominations in there.

I see a few different classes of churches, the great protestant churches or reformation churches, and the hundreds of hybrids which came later. Mainstream and evangelical.

People like Billy Graham were instrumental in creating a new class of worshipers which could be replicated everywhere - these are the ecumenical churches, in all their varieties.

So what's next? It seems like a global church which includes all religions - all whatsoever, even eastern and pagan.

Can you see a problem with that?

Starhunter wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:Starhunter, your selective and subjective view on what is to be observed and why ( like the SDA) is no better or no worse than anyone else.
This is what you seem to be failing to grasp.

That's right, I fail to grasp a lot of things. Knowledge is progressive, even in spiritual matters - as individuals and globally.

It's interesting that the beliefs which came to light with the reformation, began with the basics, - faith in Christ, no more idol worship, recognizing the Papacy as the Antichrist, no more penance (Martin Luther), Christ as the only priest to confess to, proper communion, the power of prayer and Bible study, personal ministry for Christ, charity work, no mass, baptism, prophecy, the second Advent, the ten commandments, the Sabbath, health and temperance, and knowledge of the mark of the beast. You can see all the different protestant denominations in there.

I see a few different classes of churches, the great protestant churches or reformation churches, and the hundreds of hybrids which came later. Mainstream and evangelical.

People like Billy Graham were instrumental in creating a new class of worshipers which could be replicated everywhere - these are the ecumenical churches, in all their varieties.

So what's next? It seems like a global church which includes all religions - all whatsoever, even eastern and pagan.

Can you see a problem with that?

No, I don't see a problem with individual expressions of faith in Christ, as long as the follow the Gospel and the HS.
I don't think we will ever have a global religion simply because true faiths do NOT work that way.
Christians know that there is NO OTHER way to God but through Christ, that there is salvation ONLY in Christ.
I am sure Muslims and Jews would agree in regards to their own faiths too.

The best we can do is "live and let live" and follow our hearts and allow for God to decide who is right.

PaulSacramento wrote: No, I don't see a problem with individual expressions of faith in Christ, as long as the follow the Gospel and the HS.
I don't think we will ever have a global religion simply because true faiths do NOT work that way.
Christians know that there is NO OTHER way to God but through Christ, that there is salvation ONLY in Christ.
I am sure Muslims and Jews would agree in regards to their own faiths too.

The best we can do is "live and let live" and follow our hearts and allow for God to decide who is right.

I agree that, it is God who directs people into the way of faith, no matter where it begins.

Have you heard about the universal Christ idea, which proports that Christ has made all religions His Divine agents, and even atheists are included, in that their philosophy of humanism is acceptable to God because it centers on family and the oneness of humanity?