Evidence for God from Science

No Rick, I explained and you didn't agree, which is a different thing.

As for the rest: 1 Samuel 15:2-3,
This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[a] all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”

Is it an interpretation now or plain old scripture?

neo-x wrote:No Rick, I explained and you didn't agree, which is a different thing.

As for the rest: <a class="rtBibleRef" href="http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/1%20Sam%2015.2-3" data-reference="1 Sam 15.2-3" data-version="nasb95" data-purpose="bible-reference" target="_blank">1 Samuel 15:2-3</a>,
This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[a] all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”

Is it an interpretation now or plain old scripture?

Neo,

I didn't see how you explained how what I said affects OM. Would you be kind enough to requote where you explained it?

And good. You posted scripture so I know exactly what you are referring to.

God, through Samuel the prophet, commanded Saul to kill the Amalekites, for two reasons. First, to punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel. And second, to test Saul.

So in this case, I agree that God commanded Saul to kill the Amalekites.

So, what's the issue you have with this? God used Israel to punish evil. I still don't see the issue with this as it pertains to OM.

Again, murder is unjustified killing of another human being. Murder is objectively wrong. God was justified in having Saul kill the Amalekites. What's the issue?

Of course, there's good reason to think that the children and infants were instantly in the presence of the Lord - saving them from the almost certain pagan influences that would have led them to hell. The adults would have been totally committed to their pagan beliefs.

Philip wrote:Of course, there's good reason to think that the children and infants were instantly in the presence of the Lord - saving them from the almost certain pagan influences that would have led them to hell. The adults would have been totally committed to their pagan beliefs.

And being omniscient God is in a unique position to know all that so the standard objections of well "how do you know the children would not have turned out as moral beings" don't apply.

im following this thread cos its something i want to know the answer too


rickd are you saying that god had good reason say for telling abe to kill issac....therefore god is god and its justified. its not goin against OM.

What if god told you to kill your child back then or now?

Im still trying to work out what you are saying neo..how in your view you solve this problem

Nessa wrote:
rickd are you saying that god had good reason say foq telling abe to killed issac....therefore god is god and its justified. its not goin against OM

I'm saying that whatever God does, it has to be for a good reason. Whether we understand it or not. And in the case of sacrificing Isaac, you'll also notice that angel didn't let Abraham kill him. God provided a ram for sacrifice.
Abraham was blessed because of his faith.

What if god told you to kill your child back then or now?

Why would God tell me to kill my son?

RickD wrote:

Nessa wrote:
rickd are you saying that god had good reason say foq telling abe to killed issac....therefore god is god and its justified. its not goin against OM

I'm saying that whatever God does, it has to be for a good reason. Whether we understand it or not. And in the case of sacrificing Isaac, you'll also notice that angel didn't let Abraham kill him. God provided a ram for sacrifice.
Abraham was blessed because of his faith.

What if god told you to kill your child back then or now?

Why would God tell me to kill my son?

Yes, no killing was actually involved but can God make a immoral request? So to me its not a matter of whether the killing actually took place.

The question about your son was hypothetical. I mean I don't know why God would ask you. But obviously it's not beyond God to ask someone as he has. Not just with Abe but other instances of God asking someone to kill someone.

Nessa wrote:

RickD wrote:

Nessa wrote:
rickd are you saying that god had good reason say foq telling abe to killed issac....therefore god is god and its justified. its not goin against OM

I'm saying that whatever God does, it has to be for a good reason. Whether we understand it or not. And in the case of sacrificing Isaac, you'll also notice that angel didn't let Abraham kill him. God provided a ram for sacrifice.
Abraham was blessed because of his faith.

What if god told you to kill your child back then or now?

Why would God tell me to kill my son?

Yes, no killing was actually involved but can God make a immoral request? So to me its not a matter of whether the killing actually took place.

The question about your son was hypothetical. I mean I don't know why God would ask you. But obviously it's not beyond God to ask someone as he has. Not just with Abe but other instances of God asking someone to kill someone.

Nessa,
I don't believe God can make an immoral request or command, because that would be against His nature. Maybe someone more knowledgeable than I am, can explain it in more detail. I'm afraid I'd just butcher the whole thing.

For one, I've never had God talk to me in an audible voice. So, if He suddenly asked me to kill my son, the first thing I'd do would be to pinch myself to see if I was dreaming.

RickD wrote:

neo-x wrote:No Rick, I explained and you didn't agree, which is a different thing.

As for the rest: <a class="rtBibleRef" href="http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/1%20Sam%2015.2-3" data-reference="1 Sam 15.2-3" data-version="nasb95" data-purpose="bible-reference" target="_blank">1 Samuel 15:2-3</a>,
This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[a] all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”

Is it an interpretation now or plain old scripture?

Neo,

I didn't see how you explained how what I said affects OM. Would you be kind enough to requote where you explained it?

And good. You posted scripture so I know exactly what you are referring to.

God, through Samuel the prophet, commanded Saul to kill the Amalekites, for two reasons. First, to punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel. And second, to test Saul.

So in this case, I agree that God commanded Saul to kill the Amalekites.

So, what's the issue you have with this? God used Israel to punish evil. I still don't see the issue with this as it pertains to OM.

Again, murder is unjustified killing of another human being. Murder is objectively wrong. God was justified in having Saul kill the Amalekites. What's the issue?

So killing of everyone else who did not participate in war was just fine? It wasn't objectively wrong to kill children and infants who had nothing to do with anything and whose ancestors had wronged Israel some 400 years ago? And you are saying that this doesn't go against OM?


So basically, you do hold that marrying 12 years old girls is objectively wrong even though there may be varying reasons for it, but murder of children and infants is not wrong as long as you have a reason for it.

By the way I am calling it murder, and if you want to call it justified killing please let me know what justifiable reason that was?

What is love?
Baby don't hurt me
Don't hurt me
No more
Baby don't hurt me, don't hurt me
No more
What is love?
I don't know why you're not fair
I give you my love, but you don't care
So what is right and what is wrong?
Gimme a sign!

Neo: So killing of everyone else who did not participate in war was just fine? It wasn't objectively wrong to kill children and infants who had nothing to do with anything and whose ancestors had wronged Israel some 400 years ago? And you are saying that this doesn't go against OM?

Neo, OBVIOUSLY, this is one of those Bible passages that is both disturbing and challenging to understand. But, going by some of your past statements, I'm wondering whether you actually believe this happened, that God ordered it? And it's certainly not the same as if a MAN had ordered this action. A man has only finite understandings - God's are ALL-knowing and eternally focused. That doesn't mean that I totally understand this. But I believe it is factual, as it is part of Scripture - and acknowledged as such by Jesus Himself, when he framed the prophets and The Law. Most certainly, God cannot sin!

Philip wrote:Of course, there's good reason to think that the children and infants were instantly in the presence of the Lord - saving them from the almost certain pagan influences that would have led them to hell. The adults would have been totally committed to their pagan beliefs.

Phillip I am sorry to say but by that logic we should all kill our own children right now for they won't ever see the evil that is in the world. They will be instantly in heaven, in the presence of the lord, having no wrong beliefs ever corrupting them. There were a paltry number of Pagan nations facing Israel, now we have a whole world full of them. So the chances of our children going astray are higher than the time those poor children were put to death.

And my next question to you, did God commanded these children and infants to be killed because they had no sin on them? Otherwise if they had sinned why would God accept them in is presence as you expect?

And if they had not sinned then are you saying God commanded the killing of the innocent who had done nothing wrong?

Philip wrote:

Neo: So killing of everyone else who did not participate in war was just fine? It wasn't objectively wrong to kill children and infants who had nothing to do with anything and whose ancestors had wronged Israel some 400 years ago? And you are saying that this doesn't go against OM?

Neo, OBVIOUSLY, this is one of those Bible passages that is both disturbing and challenging to understand. But, going by some of your past statements, I'm wondering whether you actually believe this happened, that God ordered it? And it's certainly not the same as if a MAN had ordered this action. A man has only finite understandings - God's are ALL-knowing and eternally focused. That doesn't mean that I totally understand this. But I believe it is factual, as it is part of Scripture - and acknowledged as such by Jesus Himself, when he framed the prophets and The Law. Most certainly, God cannot sin!

I posted before seeing your message Phillip. Let me address this.

I am also saying the same thing, God can't sin. But where is the reason for this action? It most certainly looks like unwanted and a sin. Take God out of it and whole thing is called genocide.

What I find appalling is Christians trying to justify this action through not so good arguments. We can just say we don't know, like you did above and let it rest there. This is a nightmare for apologetic discussion to try to put a defense to this charge. If we can't sort it out among ourselves how do you expect to ever answer an unbeliever what happened?

Saying we don't know is still, at least, honest. Any other explanation is well not satisfactory and you can see that by the questions I asked you in reply to your post.

neo-x wrote:

RickD wrote:

neo-x wrote:No Rick, I explained and you didn't agree, which is a different thing.

As for the rest: <a class="rtBibleRef" href="http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/1%20Sam%2015.2-3" data-reference="1 Sam 15.2-3" data-version="nasb95" data-purpose="bible-reference" target="_blank">1 Samuel 15:2-3</a>,
This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[a] all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”

Is it an interpretation now or plain old scripture?

Neo,

I didn't see how you explained how what I said affects OM. Would you be kind enough to requote where you explained it?

And good. You posted scripture so I know exactly what you are referring to.

God, through Samuel the prophet, commanded Saul to kill the Amalekites, for two reasons. First, to punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel. And second, to test Saul.

So in this case, I agree that God commanded Saul to kill the Amalekites.

So, what's the issue you have with this? God used Israel to punish evil. I still don't see the issue with this as it pertains to OM.

Again, murder is unjustified killing of another human being. Murder is objectively wrong. God was justified in having Saul kill the Amalekites. What's the issue?

So killing of everyone else who did not participate in war was just fine? It wasn't objectively wrong to kill children and infants who had nothing to do with anything and whose ancestors had wronged Israel some 400 years ago? And you are saying that this doesn't go against OM?
Sounds like you have it all figured out Neo. You know that God had no good reason to have children killed. Not sure how you can judge the situation better than God in His infinite wisdom can. But hey, you seem like a smart guy.

So basically, you do hold that marrying 12 years old girls is objectively wrong even though there may be varying reasons for it, but killing of children and infants is not wrong as long as you have a reason for it.

First, I'm not saying that I'm sure that marrying a 12 year old child is objectively wrong. I just don't know if I can go that far. I suppose it's possible that in some culture somewhere, a sexually, emotionally mature 12 year old girl could marry a sexually, emotionally mature boy close to her age. But, I'm sorry Neo, your great grandfather was a dirty old man.

And I never said, so please don't misrepresent me, that killing children is not wrong if I have a reason for it. I'm saying that it's not objectively wrong if GOD had a good reason for it. And apparently unlike you, I don't presume to be omniscient. So, unlike you, I don't claim that God doesn't have good reasons for what He does.

Sorry,

Didn't see this in your post the first time. And I'm having copy/paste problems:

Neo wrote:
By the way I am calling it murder, and if you want to call it justified killing please let me know what justifiable reason that was?

I don't presume to know what God knows. I can't tell you why God was justified in commanding the killing of children. But I can tell you if He's God, and He commands something, who the hell are you to say He's not justified?