Evidence for God from Science

1over137 wrote:If you believe in God do you also believe he intervenes in this world or not?

I believe He can. Whether He does or not, I have no idea.

Maybe he can also send manna from Heaven.

But, "no idea", right?

My belief in God is not based on anything

I misread what this meant. In fact, you do have a basis in belief on one front, God is the creator.

There may be more to your basis than you think.

stuartcr wrote:

1over137 wrote:If you believe in God do you also believe he intervenes in this world or not?

I believe He can. Whether He does or not, I have no idea.

And ...
B.W. Could tell he does http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 96#p183396

1over137 wrote:Maybe he can also send manna from Heaven.

But, "no idea", right?

Probably, I just don't believe He did

EssentialSacrifice wrote:

My belief in God is not based on anything

I misread what this meant. In fact, you do have a basis in belief on one front, God is the creator.

There may be more to your basis than you think.

I have no idea what you mean.

I have no idea what you mean.

I mean, you may have belief in God based on something... He's the creator.

If He's the creator and you understand the complexity of creation, with enough time and thought, you may come to believe the one who created you is also more than capable of creating a simple substance like manna.... really one of His more minor miracles, with a lot of staying power.

EssentialSacrifice wrote:

I have no idea what you mean.

I mean, you may have belief in God based on something... He's the creator.

If He's the creator and you understand the complexity of creation, with enough time and thought, you may come to believe the one who created you is also more than capable of creating a simple substance like manna.... really one of His more minor miracles, with a lot of staying power.

I do not understand the complexity of creation and I believe He is more than capable of creating manna, I just do not believe He did.

and I believe He is more than capable of creating manna, I just do not believe He did.

what is your reasoning or source of information that precludes belief in or desire to perform this miracle ? If God can do it, why wouldn't he (?) when He had it written down as example of His omnipotence in the most trusted source of information about God, the bible, ... why would it be untrue or unbelievable if He's believed capable ?

EssentialSacrifice wrote:

and I believe He is more than capable of creating manna, I just do not believe He did.

what is your reasoning or source of information that precludes belief in or desire to perform this miracle ? If God can do it, why wouldn't he (?) when He had it written down as example of His omnipotence in the most trusted source of information about God, the bible, ... why would it be untrue or unbelievable if He's believed capable ?

Because it's too convenient to have all those miracles happen when there is no way to validate them other than with a book which requires a belief itself? I understand why the story exists, I just don't believe it happened. Why couldn't they just eat some of their flock like they normally would? Why have millions starved to death without any other record of manna?

On the subject of belief. Just because someone says they believe something, doesn't mean they really do, even if they really want to. How does someone just start believing something today, that was unbelievable yesterday? I think true belief comes from God.

Because it's too convenient to have all those miracles happen

there are in excess of 124 miracles throughout the Bible, are they all too convenient ? http://christiananswers.net/dictionary/miracle.html

What are they too convenient from ?

there is no way to validate them other than with a book which requires a belief itself?

well, this is a little disingenuous, of course the validation requires belief, as is true for the source of the miracle stories themselves, the Bible.
It's a two-fer of sorts, belief in either one leads to firm belief in the other... but that's the Christian prism.

I understand why the story exists

Tell me then, why the miracle manna story exists

I just don't believe it happened.

until you get an answer that others can understand, you must understand these words of yours are just conjecture without merit.

Why couldn't they just eat some of their flock like they normally would?

good question. perhaps they did and the manna was a supplement. God only knows and He didn't feel it necessary to explain. Your second guessing is no more illuminating than not knowing the answer, and Monday morning quarterbacking is only good for point spread for the following Sunday, not belief, eternal trust and justification.

On the subject of belief. Just because someone says they believe something, doesn't mean they really do, even if they really want to

wait, but if it does mean they really do then if they really want to just because they said so maybe they'll believe something... somebody's gonna have to man up and make a decision ... belief isn't a game, it's a way of life dedicated to the life of Jesus as guide.

How does someone just start believing something today, that was unbelievable yesterday?

Prayer...
Dedicated bible reading
Church attendance
Prayer...
Feeding the poor
Clothing the poor
Prayer...
Visiting those in jail
Loving your neighbor as yourself
Prayer...
acts of corporal mercy ... and a whole host / manner of possibilities of getting closer to God...

I think true belief comes from God.

agreed

EssentialSacrifice wrote:

Because it's too convenient to have all those miracles happen

there are in excess of 124 miracles throughout the Bible, are they all too convenient ? http://christiananswers.net/dictionary/miracle.html

What are they too convenient from ?

there is no way to validate them other than with a book which requires a belief itself?

well, this is a little disingenuous, of course the validation requires belief, as is true for the source of the miracle stories themselves, the Bible.
It's a two-fer of sorts, belief in either one leads to firm belief in the other... but that's the Christian prism.

I understand why the story exists

Tell me then, why the miracle manna story exists

I just don't believe it happened.

until you get an answer that others can understand, you must understand these words of yours are just conjecture without merit.

Why couldn't they just eat some of their flock like they normally would?

good question. perhaps they did and the manna was a supplement. God only knows and He didn't feel it necessary to explain. Your second guessing is no more illuminating than not knowing the answer, and Monday morning quarterbacking is only good for point spread for the following Sunday, not belief, eternal trust and justification.

On the subject of belief. Just because someone says they believe something, doesn't mean they really do, even if they really want to

wait, but if it does mean they really do then if they really want to just because they said so maybe they'll believe something... somebody's gonna have to man up and make a decision ... belief isn't a game, it's a way of life dedicated to the life of Jesus as guide.

How does someone just start believing something today, that was unbelievable yesterday?

Prayer...
Dedicated bible reading
Church attendance
Prayer...
Feeding the poor
Clothing the poor
Prayer...
Visiting those in jail
Loving your neighbor as yourself
Prayer...
acts of corporal mercy ... and a whole host / manner of possibilities of getting closer to God...

I think true belief comes from God.

agreed

When a lesson or moral guidance is required, it's very convenient to apply a miracle to help make a point. Some miracles are believable, for instance water into wine...but that is chemistry, not a miracle. I had a priest explain the loaves and fishes in his sermon that made sense. He stated that what he believed really happened was this; in those days, people carried all their belongings pretty much on their person, as is the norm for nomadic people. The miracle was that everyone contributed the food they were carrying so that it could be spread amongst the crowd. The miracle was people sacrificing, not fish and bread appearing from a basket. Do you truly believe that Jonah was in the belly of a sea creature for 3 days?

If something happened, it should not require a belief to validate it. It would be a fact, wouldn't it?

As someone earlier pointed out, it is a lesson for those that need reinforcement in their beliefs.

Of course it's conjecture, that's the point...it's all conjecture.

As far as what you say is required for true belief, that doesn't work, or there would be way more people that believe. That too is convenient, in that if someone says they do not believe, it's simply because they failed or didn't try hard enough to do all those things you mentioned were required for belief. Besides, many non-Christians do all those things, yet they are still not Christians.

When a lesson or moral guidance is required, it's very convenient to apply a miracle to help make a point.

So all 124 miracles reported in the bible are applied to make a point of convenience as a help in lessons of moral guidance ?
So tell me, just how convenient was it to be captured, falsely accused and tried, tortured and crucified for everyone elses' mistakes ?

Some miracles are believable, for instance water into wine...but that is chemistry, not a miracle.

So altering the chemical make up of water, H2O only, in to wine isn't miraculous ? Can you do it ?

I had a priest explain the loaves and fishes in his sermon that made sense. He stated that what he believed really happened was this; in those days, people carried all their belongings pretty much on their person, as is the norm for nomadic people. The miracle was that everyone contributed the food they were carrying so that it could be spread amongst the crowd. The miracle was people sacrificing, not fish and bread appearing from a basket.

Yeah, well I'm Catholic and can tell you that priest is wrong, is teaching non Catholic doctrine and the priest should be corrected as soon as possible to stop the spread of corruptible incorrect dogma. God sees you as the most important person in His life, so how well do you suppose that priest will be accepted for steering you in such a wrong direction ? If you want to allude to events in the bible then the bible should be your refuge for the information, not a personal playground for a change to the event to suit your personal needs, no matter how good your intentions.

If something happened, it should not require a belief to validate it. It would be a fact, wouldn't it?

When the miracle happened it did not require validation for belief, as it was fact then as it is now. The people ate and were satisfied, with their full stomachs and complete belief in God's power. 2000 years later, after the fact, only unbelief requires validation of physical proof.

As someone earlier pointed out, it is a lesson for those that need reinforcement in their beliefs.

So it's a good lesson to lie as a requirement to reinforce their beliefs ? How would that sound… “well, gotta tell you, all those miracles we spoke of were lies… I only tell you this as a lesson to reinforce your belief !”
A house divided stuart will fall... and that is exactly what you speak of here, write down a bunch of (124) miracles in your Torah / Bible and wait for the lies to unravel...

Of course it's conjecture, that's the point...it's all conjecture.

Right turn or what ? The conjecture was in definition of your inability to make a point out of anything other than you personal opinion. You can't expect people to listen if you have nothing original to say.

As far as what you say is required for true belief, that doesn't work, or there would be way more people that believe.

1.2 billion Christians will tend to disagree with you here… besides, I never gave you requirements for true belief, I gave you paths to emulate Jesus so, as you asked, how to become a believer from one day to the next. Those acts of corporal mercy and prayer are how, day by day. Live the life of Christ as well as you can and your belief will blossom, but I never considered them requirements for true belief, your words I think.

Besides, many non-Christians do all those things, yet they are still not Christians.

There's lots of good people in the world, but how many of them make a profession of faith to and for all the world to see that establishes God as the reason for their belief and desire to do well for others ?…

EssentialSacrifice wrote:

When a lesson or moral guidance is required, it's very convenient to apply a miracle to help make a point.

So all 124 miracles reported in the bible are applied to make a point of convenience as a help in lessons of moral guidance ?
So tell me, just how convenient was it to be captured, falsely accused and tried, tortured and crucified for everyone elses' mistakes ?

Some miracles are believable, for instance water into wine...but that is chemistry, not a miracle.

So altering the chemical make up of water, H2O only, in to wine isn't miraculous ? Can you do it ?

I had a priest explain the loaves and fishes in his sermon that made sense. He stated that what he believed really happened was this; in those days, people carried all their belongings pretty much on their person, as is the norm for nomadic people. The miracle was that everyone contributed the food they were carrying so that it could be spread amongst the crowd. The miracle was people sacrificing, not fish and bread appearing from a basket.

Yeah, well I'm Catholic and can tell you that priest is wrong, is teaching non Catholic doctrine and the priest should be corrected as soon as possible to stop the spread of corruptible incorrect dogma. God sees you as the most important person in His life, so how well do you suppose that priest will be accepted for steering you in such a wrong direction ? If you want to allude to events in the bible then the bible should be your refuge for the information, not a personal playground for a change to the event to suit your personal needs, no matter how good your intentions.

If something happened, it should not require a belief to validate it. It would be a fact, wouldn't it?

When the miracle happened it did not require validation for belief, as it was fact then as it is now. The people ate and were satisfied, with their full stomachs and complete belief in God's power. 2000 years later, after the fact, only unbelief requires validation of physical proof.

As someone earlier pointed out, it is a lesson for those that need reinforcement in their beliefs.

So it's a good lesson to lie as a requirement to reinforce their beliefs ? How would that sound… “well, gotta tell you, all those miracles we spoke of were lies… I only tell you this as a lesson to reinforce your belief !”
A house divided stuart will fall... and that is exactly what you speak of here, write down a bunch of (124) miracles in your Torah / Bible and wait for the lies to unravel...

Of course it's conjecture, that's the point...it's all conjecture.

Right turn or what ? The conjecture was in definition of your inability to make a point out of anything other than you personal opinion. You can't expect people to listen if you have nothing original to say.

As far as what you say is required for true belief, that doesn't work, or there would be way more people that believe.

1.2 billion Christians will tend to disagree with you here… besides, I never gave you requirements for true belief, I gave you paths to emulate Jesus so, as you asked, how to become a believer from one day to the next. Those acts of corporal mercy and prayer are how, day by day. Live the life of Christ as well as you can and your belief will blossom, but I never considered them requirements for true belief, your words I think.

Besides, many non-Christians do all those things, yet they are still not Christians.

There's lots of good people in the world, but how many of them make a profession of faith to and for all the world to see that establishes God as the reason for their belief and desire to do well for others ?…

Of course it wasn't convenient, but that's not what we are talking about is it?

People knew how to make wine prior to that miracle, didn't they?

I am not in the habit of telling an 0-6 Navy chaplain that he is wrong.

Since I was not there I do not know if it actually happened or not. I will ask why no biblical type miracles happen when man has good recording devices?

I do not know what you mean.

That really doesn't matter to me. You and others here listened, right?

You agreed with me that true belief comes from God, correct? Since God knows what is in someone's heart, and He knows what will happen, then if one is going to believe or not, God already knows, right?

stuartcr wrote:
When a lesson or moral guidance is required, it's very convenient to apply a miracle to help make a point. Some miracles are believable, for instance water into wine...but that is chemistry, not a miracle. I had a priest explain the loaves and fishes in his sermon that made sense. He stated that what he believed really happened was this; in those days, people carried all their belongings pretty much on their person, as is the norm for nomadic people. The miracle was that everyone contributed the food they were carrying so that it could be spread amongst the crowd. The miracle was people sacrificing, not fish and bread appearing from a basket. Do you truly believe that Jonah was in the belly of a sea creature for 3 days?

I find that pretty shocking and sad. Why be a priest if you just want to find ways to explain miracles so there's nothing really special about them anymore, and God's power is denied? The Bible says something about people - it might have been about church leaders - 'having a form of Godliness but denying its power.'