Evidence for God from Science

crochet1949 wrote:

jenna wrote:

crochet1949 wrote:Because -- Without the cross -- because of our unrighteousness -- because Eve and Adam followed satan's word way back then rather than listen to God -- they Lost relationship With God. God is holy / perfect -- and nothing Unholy can be with God. We would All be dying in our sins and ending up in hell for eternity. (eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and Evil) "God commendeth His love towards us that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." He went down to hell For us -- In Our Place -- and came back to us. After those three days, He was resurrected. So -- Jesus Christ's death / being the perfect lamb of God / took care of our punishment. But each person is responsible for our personal sins and needs to recognize our need for a Savior / repent and accept what Christ has done on the cross as the one and only thing needed. Thank God for his gift.

ok, and here is another thing. Christ DIED for us, He did not go to hell for us. To imply that He went to hell would mean that He never truly died. To say this would make Him a liar, and nothing at all He said could be trusted. and also, you did not explain WHY God would make a way out for us, if hell is for the devil and his angels, and not for us.

I 'Googled' the question. gotQuestions.org -- did Jesus go to hell?

Yes, Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins. The confusion lies in Where He went after He died and Why. In Hebrew Scriptures, the word used to describe the realm of the dead is sheol. The New Testament Greek equivalent of sheol is hades, referring to the place of the dead. Sheol / hades is a temporary place, where souls are kept as they await the final resurrection and judgment. Jesus did Not go to a place of torment after His death, but He did go to hades.

That is a place of two divisions -- the abode of the unsaved is called 'hell'. The abode of the saved is called 'Abrahams' bosom'.

The Lake of Fire is the permanent and final place of judgment for the lost.

When Jesus died, He went to the blessed side of sheol, and from there, took the believers with Him to heaven. (Ephesians 4:8-10)

Why would God make a way out for us? Because the wages of sin is death -- eternal separation from God. But the gift of God is eternal Life through Jesus Christ the Lord.

We lost fellowship with God when Adam and Eve when they disobeyed God's Word. The serpant told them that God didn't Really mean what He told them. They wouldn't Really die -- they Would become wise Like God. And they thought That sounded pretty good. So they chose to believe satan's lie Instead of following God's Word that was given to them. The cross -- Christ's shed blood for us -- was sufficient payment for our sins -- 'what can wash away my sins, nothing but the blood of Jesus' is a great truth in a song. But a person needs to accept a gift before it becomes Theirs.

Would you Rather that God let us end up in hell? and allow us all to spend eternity with satan in the lake of fire and brimstone?

I'm rather Glad that He has provided a way for us to be reconciled to Him through the blood of the cross.

jenna wrote:...yes we did leave off years ago, but the bible still says the exact same thing it did when we left off. you are putting meaning, adding to the verses, and saying i am taking these verses out of context, when in fact i am doing nothing more than taking these verses for exactly what they say! I personally do not find God's means of punishment wrong. I agree fully with what He will do. However, your meaning of God's punishment and mine are totally different. Why dont you look a little more into the history of hell, and come back when you do. Find out how this belief truly started, because it did not originate from the pages of the bible.

jenna wrote:...Death means simply that, death. It does not mean eternal separation from God. When we die, we have no feelings, no consciousness, we do not know anything until we are are resurrected. We are judged at that time, and that time only. And again, since the lake of fire is reserved for satan and his angels, there is no need for God to provide a way out from there. If someone makes a reservation somewhere, it is for that person alone. also, you did not address my earlier statement or question. if Christ did not literally die, then He is a liar, and cannot be trusted. which means we have no savior at all. saying He went to the "underworld" and got the blessed ones out of there is equivalent to saying He never really died, since His consciousness lived on somewhere else.

jenna. wrote:

jenna wrote:...yes we did leave off years ago, but the bible still says the exact same thing it did when we left off. you are putting meaning, adding to the verses, and saying i am taking these verses out of context, when in fact i am doing nothing more than taking these verses for exactly what they say! I personally do not find God's means of punishment wrong. I agree fully with what He will do. However, your meaning of God's punishment and mine are totally different. Why dont you look a little more into the history of hell, and come back when you do. Find out how this belief truly started, because it did not originate from the pages of the bible.

B. W. wrote: No, I am not putting a meaning that is not there into the text. Your doctrine ‘actually’ does this, not the bible. I’ve shown the context of Eccl 9:5 plainly and shown how the bible indeed teaches that a person after they die are still alive as Ezk 32 reveals and Job 26:5,6 as well as Luke 16:19-31.

jenna wrote:actually, this is not "my" doctrine at all. and no you have not shown anything except words that have no meaning to me, since the bible in no way teaches that the dead are still somehow alive somewhere else, instead of dead meaning dead, and alive meaning alive.

B. W. wrote: Hebrews 9:27, explains how Isaiah 24:22 works… and what Jesus mentions in Luke 16:19-31 for the unredeemed and next, for those who are Born Again what Paul mentions in Php 1:23, 24 happens which reveal that soul sleep is not scriptural. Period.

agreed. soul sleep isnt scriptural. soul death is, though.

B. W. wrote:As for a study on Hell, you should know better than assume That I haven’t studied the doctrines on Hell thoroughly especially one who has died and was resuscitated back to life.

Have you forgotten that part about me? Sorry Bates and E G White got it wrong and have by now discovered that they taught error being with Jesus right now and alive in Heaven, right now and not asleep.

no i have not forgotten. and yes, Jesus is alive and well with God. and He is the ONLY one who is.

B. W. wrote:Why would death and hades be cast into the lake of fire if no one was in it? If Hades is just the grave, does this mean so many tons of earth being tossed in the Lake of Fire or does it mean physical place known as the current Hell with all its inhabitants?

death and hades are cast into the lake of fire because they will be gone, with no more remembrance of them. and yes hades just means the grave, a place people are put when they die. graves and death will be no more.

jenna wrote:...Death means simply that, death. It does not mean eternal separation from God. When we die, we have no feelings, no consciousness, we do not know anything until we are are resurrected. We are judged at that time, and that time only. And again, since the lake of fire is reserved for satan and his angels, there is no need for God to provide a way out from there. If someone makes a reservation somewhere, it is for that person alone. also, you did not address my earlier statement or question. if Christ did not literally die, then He is a liar, and cannot be trusted. which means we have no savior at all. saying He went to the "underworld" and got the blessed ones out of there is equivalent to saying He never really died, since His consciousness lived on somewhere else.

B. W. wrote:This what your doctrine teaches: Basic Seventh Day Adventist (SA) doctrine. Even though it is in error, it does not make those who believe in it not Christian or Heretics… as the Late Dr Walter Martin pointed, they hold to the fundamental doctrine of salvation by grace thru faith… and are brothers and sisters in Christ - which I believe as well.

However, many who teach this SA doctrine do claim that those who do not believe in it are not Christians. Therefore, is this what you are trying to convey Jenna?

Please clear the air here before we continue… as I think that is what you are implying and the reason I wanted to cut thru the chase… so can you kindly clarify?

crochet1949 wrote:Physical death is this mortal life coming to an End. These bodies of ours will Not be alive on this earth forever. However-- our Spirit does live on. That's one of those things that Scripture tells us. People Have noticed / observed people in the process Of dying. Some have been observed dying very peacefully Others dying in almost horror. An indication that something Is happening that only the dying experience. And, no, not Everyone is observed this way.

jenna wrote:

crochet1949 wrote:Physical death is this mortal life coming to an End. These bodies of ours will Not be alive on this earth forever. However-- our Spirit does live on. That's one of those things that Scripture tells us. People Have noticed / observed people in the process Of dying. Some have been observed dying very peacefully Others dying in almost horror. An indication that something Is happening that only the dying experience. And, no, not Everyone is observed this way.

to address both of your posts, no i havent forgotten that Christ is God's Son, and He is also God Himself, which strangely you didnt mention. I agree He literally did die on the cross. Where you and I disagree is where He went after death. He did not go anywhere except to the grave. Only after 3 days and nights was He resurrected. He did not go to some place called Abraham's bosom. and secondly, our spirit returns to God after we die, that is true. But as addressed in a previous post, do not confuse the spirit with the soul. they are two separate, distinct things.

jenna wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:If the spirit is simply breath, how do you address passage such as:
Hebrews 4:12, "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

1 Thessalonians 5:23, "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

I mean, what is the big deal of "piercing spirit" or the spirit being "blameless" ?

What about spiritual wisdom and understanding? Spiritual blessings? Spiritually disconcerned ?

Or:

1 Corinthians 2:11 (ESV)
11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

Seems that the spirit is more than just "breath".

1) here it describes the body, spirit and soul being divided, and God knowing our very thoughts and intents.
2) it is saying almost the same thing thing here, that only God knows our true thoughts, other than the person who is thinking them. and only God knows God's true thoughts.

PaulSacramento wrote:

jenna wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:If the spirit is simply breath, how do you address passage such as:
Hebrews 4:12, "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

1 Thessalonians 5:23, "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

I mean, what is the big deal of "piercing spirit" or the spirit being "blameless" ?

What about spiritual wisdom and understanding? Spiritual blessings? Spiritually disconcerned ?

Or:

1 Corinthians 2:11 (ESV)
11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

Seems that the spirit is more than just "breath".

1) here it describes the body, spirit and soul being divided, and God knowing our very thoughts and intents.
2) it is saying almost the same thing thing here, that only God knows our true thoughts, other than the person who is thinking them. and only God knows God's true thoughts.

Your views don't seem to be reconciling.

For clarification please:
Our Spirit, is it personal or impersonal?

PaulSacramento wrote:And does this individual spirit have any personal qualities?

jenna wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:And does this individual spirit have any personal qualities?

instead of beating around the bush, please just come to the point? what exactly is it you are trying to say?

jenna wrote:

jenna. wrote:

jenna wrote:...yes we did leave off years ago, but the bible still says the exact same thing it did when we left off. you are putting meaning, adding to the verses, and saying i am taking these verses out of context, when in fact i am doing nothing more than taking these verses for exactly what they say! I personally do not find God's means of punishment wrong. I agree fully with what He will do. However, your meaning of God's punishment and mine are totally different. Why dont you look a little more into the history of hell, and come back when you do. Find out how this belief truly started, because it did not originate from the pages of the bible.

B. W. wrote: No, I am not putting a meaning that is not there into the text. Your doctrine ‘actually’ does this, not the bible. I’ve shown the context of Eccl 9:5 plainly and shown how the bible indeed teaches that a person after they die are still alive as Ezk 32 reveals and Job 26:5,6 as well as Luke 16:19-31.

jenna wrote:actually, this is not "my" doctrine at all. and no you have not shown anything except words that have no meaning to me, since the bible in no way teaches that the dead are still somehow alive somewhere else, instead of dead meaning dead, and alive meaning alive.

B. W. wrote: Hebrews 9:27, explains how Isaiah 24:22 works… and what Jesus mentions in Luke 16:19-31 for the unredeemed and next, for those who are Born Again what Paul mentions in Php 1:23, 24 happens which reveal that soul sleep is not scriptural. Period.

agreed. soul sleep isnt scriptural. soul death is, though.

B. W. wrote:As for a study on Hell, you should know better than assume That I haven’t studied the doctrines on Hell thoroughly especially one who has died and was resuscitated back to life.

Have you forgotten that part about me? Sorry Bates and E G White got it wrong and have by now discovered that they taught error being with Jesus right now and alive in Heaven, right now and not asleep.

no i have not forgotten. and yes, Jesus is alive and well with God. and He is the ONLY one who is.

B. W. wrote:Why would death and hades be cast into the lake of fire if no one was in it? If Hades is just the grave, does this mean so many tons of earth being tossed in the Lake of Fire or does it mean physical place known as the current Hell with all its inhabitants?

death and hades are cast into the lake of fire because they will be gone, with no more remembrance of them. and yes hades just means the grave, a place people are put when they die. graves and death will be no more.

jenna wrote:...Death means simply that, death. It does not mean eternal separation from God. When we die, we have no feelings, no consciousness, we do not know anything until we are are resurrected. We are judged at that time, and that time only. And again, since the lake of fire is reserved for satan and his angels, there is no need for God to provide a way out from there. If someone makes a reservation somewhere, it is for that person alone. also, you did not address my earlier statement or question. if Christ did not literally die, then He is a liar, and cannot be trusted. which means we have no savior at all. saying He went to the "underworld" and got the blessed ones out of there is equivalent to saying He never really died, since His consciousness lived on somewhere else.

B. W. wrote:This what your doctrine teaches: Basic Seventh Day Adventist (SA) doctrine. Even though it is in error, it does not make those who believe in it not Christian or Heretics… as the Late Dr Walter Martin pointed, they hold to the fundamental doctrine of salvation by grace thru faith… and are brothers and sisters in Christ - which I believe as well.

However, many who teach this SA doctrine do claim that those who do not believe in it are not Christians. Therefore, is this what you are trying to convey Jenna?

Please clear the air here before we continue… as I think that is what you are implying and the reason I wanted to cut thru the chase… so can you kindly clarify?

so much of my post above got messed up. sorry, but no idea how to fix it. however, i DID respond to many of your questions, above, if one has the time and inclination to read it.

as you know, i am not SA. so why are you bringing up them and what they teach? or did you forget what my beliefs are? i have never judged another person by their beliefs at all, and in no way is it possible for me to say who is christian and who is not. i am actually hurt that after all this time, you would even think this of me. I had a feeling that you did not want me here, and now it seems the truth has come to light.

B. W. wrote:

jenna wrote:

jenna. wrote:

jenna wrote:...yes we did leave off years ago, but the bible still says the exact same thing it did when we left off. you are putting meaning, adding to the verses, and saying i am taking these verses out of context, when in fact i am doing nothing more than taking these verses for exactly what they say! I personally do not find God's means of punishment wrong. I agree fully with what He will do. However, your meaning of God's punishment and mine are totally different. Why dont you look a little more into the history of hell, and come back when you do. Find out how this belief truly started, because it did not originate from the pages of the bible.

B. W. wrote: No, I am not putting a meaning that is not there into the text. Your doctrine ‘actually’ does this, not the bible. I’ve shown the context of Eccl 9:5 plainly and shown how the bible indeed teaches that a person after they die are still alive as Ezk 32 reveals and Job 26:5,6 as well as Luke 16:19-31.

jenna wrote:actually, this is not "my" doctrine at all. and no you have not shown anything except words that have no meaning to me, since the bible in no way teaches that the dead are still somehow alive somewhere else, instead of dead meaning dead, and alive meaning alive.

B. W. wrote: Hebrews 9:27, explains how Isaiah 24:22 works… and what Jesus mentions in Luke 16:19-31 for the unredeemed and next, for those who are Born Again what Paul mentions in Php 1:23, 24 happens which reveal that soul sleep is not scriptural. Period.

agreed. soul sleep isnt scriptural. soul death is, though.

B. W. wrote:As for a study on Hell, you should know better than assume That I haven’t studied the doctrines on Hell thoroughly especially one who has died and was resuscitated back to life.

Have you forgotten that part about me? Sorry Bates and E G White got it wrong and have by now discovered that they taught error being with Jesus right now and alive in Heaven, right now and not asleep.

no i have not forgotten. and yes, Jesus is alive and well with God. and He is the ONLY one who is.

B. W. wrote:Why would death and hades be cast into the lake of fire if no one was in it? If Hades is just the grave, does this mean so many tons of earth being tossed in the Lake of Fire or does it mean physical place known as the current Hell with all its inhabitants?

death and hades are cast into the lake of fire because they will be gone, with no more remembrance of them. and yes hades just means the grave, a place people are put when they die. graves and death will be no more.

jenna wrote:...Death means simply that, death. It does not mean eternal separation from God. When we die, we have no feelings, no consciousness, we do not know anything until we are are resurrected. We are judged at that time, and that time only. And again, since the lake of fire is reserved for satan and his angels, there is no need for God to provide a way out from there. If someone makes a reservation somewhere, it is for that person alone. also, you did not address my earlier statement or question. if Christ did not literally die, then He is a liar, and cannot be trusted. which means we have no savior at all. saying He went to the "underworld" and got the blessed ones out of there is equivalent to saying He never really died, since His consciousness lived on somewhere else.

B. W. wrote:This what your doctrine teaches: Basic Seventh Day Adventist (SA) doctrine. Even though it is in error, it does not make those who believe in it not Christian or Heretics… as the Late Dr Walter Martin pointed, they hold to the fundamental doctrine of salvation by grace thru faith… and are brothers and sisters in Christ - which I believe as well.

However, many who teach this SA doctrine do claim that those who do not believe in it are not Christians. Therefore, is this what you are trying to convey Jenna?

Please clear the air here before we continue… as I think that is what you are implying and the reason I wanted to cut thru the chase… so can you kindly clarify?

so much of my post above got messed up. sorry, but no idea how to fix it. however, i DID respond to many of your questions, above, if one has the time and inclination to read it.

as you know, i am not SA. so why are you bringing up them and what they teach? or did you forget what my beliefs are? i have never judged another person by their beliefs at all, and in no way is it possible for me to say who is christian and who is not. i am actually hurt that after all this time, you would even think this of me. I had a feeling that you did not want me here, and now it seems the truth has come to light.

Fixed you post for you...

The reason I bring up the SA is that from them many others who are not SA out there borrowed from it and built their doctrines on. What you cited in this post concerning the state of the afterlife mirrors SA doctrine. However, you present another version of the spin off's from another group.

Yes, I also do not recall if you are from Unity or another group as there has been so many posters over the years that that all gel into each other. No intent on my part to offend you in the least and you are welcomed here. Please kindly refresh our memories here...regarding what group are you associated with again?

Thank you
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jenna wrote:...first off, just to be clear, i am not associated with any group. i do not represent any particular religion or church. i am not affiliated with anything. that being said, i was raised in the Worldwide Church, and still remember when the church fell apart. i hold to the teachings that were once taught through them. Although i am not a member of them anymore.

Beginnings

The Radio Church of God began with Herbert W. Armstrong, who in 1931 was ordained by the Oregon Conference of the Church of God (Seventh-Day), an Adventist group, and began serving a congregation in Eugene, Oregon. On January 7, 1934, Armstrong began hosting a broadcast on a local 100-watt radio station KORE in Eugene. It was essentially a condensed church service on the air, with hymn singing featured along with Armstrong's message, and it was the launching point for what would become the Radio Church of God. In 1933, the Church of God (Seventh-Day) split. Armstrong, who sided with the faction centered in Salem, West Virginia, fell out with the local congregation over various doctrinal issues, especially his espousal of British Israelism.

Intro

Within a few years of Armstrong's death in 1986, the succeeding church administration completely reversed the denomination's doctrines and teachings in order to make them compatible with mainstream Evangelical Christianity, while many members and ministers left and formed other churches that conformed to many but not all of Armstrong's teachings. In 2009, the church changed its name from The Worldwide Church of God to its current name.The GCI is a member of the National Association of Evangelicals, and has 50,000 members in 900 congregations in about 100 countries.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grace_Com ... ernational