Evidence for God from Science

DBowling wrote: ↑Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:10 pm

Kurieuo wrote: ↑Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:39 pm This is the main problem I see with any view that says Adam was the head of humanity, or "Adam" represents a nation of people or something such, where other people exist outside of Adam and Eve. For those outside the covenant, can't then be inheritors of a new.

I don't believe that any person exists outside of the 'Adamic covenant'.
As I mentioned earlier I believe that God chose Adam as a representative for all mankind. Scripture tells us that all of mankind is "in Adam".
Adam's name is even the same as the Hebrew word for mankind ('adam').

So I'm not sure where you're coming up with this premise of people existing outside of Adam and Eve.

Ah... I just figured out what you might be getting at...

Any pre-adamic people would not be part of the Adamic covenant, since at that time God had not yet established any covenant with Adam.
I do agree with that.

However, at the time of Adam, any Adamic covenant would impact all mankind since Adam is a representative of all mankind/'adam'.

So from the time of the creation of mankind in Genesis 1:26-27 to the time of Adam, all of mankind would fall under the 'covenant' that God gives in Genesis 1:26-30.

Then when Adam (the representative for all mankind/'adam') broke the "Edenic covenant" (Genesis 2:16-17) all of mankind was affected as well (see Romans 5:12).
And just as all mankind was affected when Adam broke the Edenic covenant, then all of mankind would fall under the Covenant that God makes with Adam and Eve in Genesis 3:16-19 as well.

So since Adam is the representative of all mankind/'adam', no one (regardless of their genetic ancestry) currently exists outside of the "Adamic covenant".

Kurieuo wrote: ↑Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:49 pm

Philip wrote: ↑Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:29 pm K, how could sin have existed in the world before Adam sinned?

Where does it say sin existed in the world before Adam and Eve?

Romans 5:13 states, "for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given..."

So there WAS sin in the world before God's law was given to Adam.

And yet the verse continues: "... but sin is not counted where there is no law."

So clearly the "law" in this verse is speaking as to when God first instructed Adam about what he was to never do. And only at that point did God hold Adam accountable for his sin - whereas before, there had been no "law" and thus not yet sin and God's accountability for it - least not any sin of Adam or Eve.

Again, at what point did God's begin to hold mankind accountable for sin? When God began to submit his laws to man with Adam - as we see when the punishment for sin began - Romans 5:14: "Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

And so what are we to make of the fact that sin transmitted to the rest of mankind BEGAN with Adam, and yet Romans 5:14 tells us, "sin indeed was in the world BEFORE the law was given[/u]..."

So, Scripture states that before Adam there was NO law. And yet Paul says that sin was in the world "before the law was given." If sin was in the world before Adam and Eve's first sin, and before God's first instructed law, then WHO exactly did this pre-law and pre-Adam sinning? If there was no mankind before Adam?

Philip wrote: ↑Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:55 am

Kurieuo wrote: ↑Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:49 pm

Philip wrote: ↑Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:29 pm K, how could sin have existed in the world before Adam sinned?

Where does it say sin existed in the world before Adam and Eve?

Romans 5:13 states, "for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given..."

So there WAS sin in the world before God's law was given to Adam.

Where is this "law" that is given to Adam found in the OT? A mere command doesn't amount to the Law, especially not within the context of Israel and how they thought of such (i.e., the Torah in particular the Mosaic Law.

Romans 5:14 far from justifying such an interpretation, further clarifies the Mosaic Law is in mind for nomos).

An interpretation is either good or poor. This is just a poor interpretation imo.

Phil wrote:And yet the verse continues: "... but sin is not counted where there is no law."

So clearly the "law" in this verse is speaking as to when God first instructed Adam about what he was to never do. And only at that point did God hold Adam accountable for his sin - whereas before, there had been no "law" and thus not yet sin and God's accountability for it - least not any sin of Adam or Eve.

Again, at what point did God's begin to hold mankind accountable for sin? When God began to submit his laws to man with Adam - as we see when the punishment for sin began - Romans 5:14: "Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

Romans 5:14 shows the scope of where there was "no law" -- between Adam and Moses who received the Law.

The Law wasn't given to Israel until Moses. Indeed, there were covenants had before, but not the covenant Israel as a nation enter into with God. Paul sets up a distinction in Romans 5 between the Old and New covenants without declaring it as much.

All sinned in Adam and were condemned, even if such doesn't seem right because the Law wasn't given except to Moses. All were judged in Adam. Adam's sin meant we're guilty the moment we come into the world. We were also condemned due to our sin. But, Paul's argument is like we are proclaimed sinful and judged on account of Adam, similarly we're made righteous on account of Christ. This is Paul's whole argument, which he proceed to get into at around Romans 5:12+.

You can of course take some liberty to read this passage however you wish, but like I say, some interpretations are poorer than others, some are better. Just because the language (particularly in English) could be understood by us a certain way, doesn't mean it is the most plain reading or best exesis.

I know you'll think otherwise, but the way your interpreting Romans 5 here is just not even within the fuller context of Paul's argument, but ripped out of Paul's argument to support a some view of creation. Again, doesn't mean it's wrong, but to me to seems like a poor interpretation that is arrived at loaded with motivation.

Read the thread I started some time ago on Original Sin. I go through Paul's argument in Romans 5:12-21 in great depth there. Entirely appropriate there.

K, I'm not saying that is what Paul meant. I'm merely throwing out this for discussion. I'm not sold on a pre-Adamite view. In fact, I kind of lean toward Adam having existed considerably longer ago than thought.

But it is a bit interesting - Adam and Eve first sinned. And yet we're told sin is not counted where there is no law. But Adam's sin most definitely was counted - so what law exactly did Adam transgress that such a terrible price was assigned to it? As Adam's sin was held accountable, there had to be some law that existed that was transgressed - per what Paul says about law and sin.

And I see it as good to throw out thoughts Phil, especially new ones theologians are tossing around out there. Heaven forbid I stop that, for that is how progress and greater insight can be had. Fwiw, I'm NOT necessarily trying to throw a spanner in the works to the position that humans exists prior to Adam. What I am here doing is offering up some dialectics in a scholastic fashion against such. I don't hold the position, nor am I enamoured by it, so I think I'm perfect to play the role of the critic if you will in the discussion.

Noone should take that as me considering someone less of the Christian, or not believing in Scripture, or something the like because of it. There are some hard questions Christianity faces, many, to do with Genesis, especially for those who venerate Scripture and take truth seriously.

Philip wrote: ↑Sat Jun 23, 2018 5:49 amBut it is a bit interesting - Adam and Eve first sinned. And yet we're told sin is not counted where there is no law. But Adam's sin most definitely was counted - so what law exactly did Adam transgress that such a terrible price was assigned to it? As Adam's sin was held accountable, there had to be some law that existed that was transgressed - per what Paul says about law and sin.

We know Adam transgressed directly against God, that's why Adam and Eve were cast out from God. Yet, don't confuse what Paul calls in Romans 5 a "transgression" (Adma's fall from God) with "the Law" i.e., Moses. Paul uses two different languages to distinguish the two from each other. (Romans 5 13-15)

Towards the end of Romans 5 we also have Paul reasoning that "the law" came to increase the trespass/transgression:
20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


Paul uses and defines the two (law and trespass) separately. So then, harking back to Romans 5:13, just because there is sin prior to the law, this isn't the same as saying sin existed prior to Adam's trespass or transgression. Well at least besides Eve, who is kind of shoved aside and just assumed because its always about us men and the patriarchy, right?

Thanks, K - I'll study on that.

Kurieuo wrote: ↑Sat Jun 23, 2018 7:02 am So then, harking back to Romans 5:13, just because there is sin prior to the law, this isn't the same as saying sin existed prior to Adam's trespass or transgression. Well at least besides Eve, who is kind of shoved aside and just assumed because its always about us men and the patriarchy, right?

Actually... I think the Eve situation is very relevant to this discussion. And I think Paul directly addresses the Eve situation in 1 Timothy 2:13-14.

Putting the existence of pre-adamic mankind aside for the moment, let's look at the implications of the actions of Eve and how they relate to Romans 5:12-14.

Romans 5:12-14 says
NIV

12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned
13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

NASB

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

1 Timothy 2:13-14 says
NIV

13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.

NASB

13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. 14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.

So in 1 Timothy 2:13-14 Paul tells us two things happened before Adam sinned
- Eve was deceived
- Eve became a sinner/fell into transgression.

In Romans 5:12 Paul tells us that sin entered the world through one man
Question - Since Eve was deceived and sinned prior to Adam sinning, what does that tell us about the definition of the 'sin' that entered the world through Adam?
My opinion...
I believe that Adam was the first person to knowingly disobey/break a command from God.
Eve was deceived and acted against the will of God in ignorance... not in knowing disobedience.
So I think the sin that Paul is referring to in Romans 5:12 is knowing disobedience against the will of God (I will be as God/I will set my own will above the will of God), which is consistent with the theme of "knowledge of good and evil" that we see throughout the Genesis account of the Fall.

In Romans 5:13 Paul tells us that sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Question - if the 'law' in question is the Law of Moses, then what are the implications regarding the spiritual status of everyone who existed from the time of Adam to when God gave the Law to Moses?

In Romans 5:14 Paul refers to those who have not sinned in the likeness of the sin of Adam.
The NIV interprets that as "those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam"
And I think Eve is an example of someone who sinned but her sin was not in the likeness of the sin of Adam.
Eve sinned in ignorance when she acted against the will of God due to deception.

Adam knowingly chose to disobey God and placed his will above the known will of God. And I think the natural predisposition of all mankind to place our own will above the will of God is the heart of the sin nature that entered the world through Adam and that we all share with Adam.

There's is also the point of Romans 2: "12 For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law."

This tells me that people CAN and do sin without the law. But notice they also "perish" - a judgement. Obviously because they have God's moral law written in the hearts and consciences. So if people without the law can perish / be punished eternally, how can Paul say sin is not counted where there is no law?

Philip wrote: ↑Sat Jun 23, 2018 10:12 am There's is also the point of Romans 2: "12 For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law."

This tells me that people CAN and do sin without the law. But notice they also "perish" - a judgement.

Just an observation...
I don't think Paul is equating sinning without the law and sinning under the law.
I think Paul is contrasting sinning without the with sinning under the law.

The consequences of sinning without the law is a person will perish (apollumi: to destroy, destroy utterly)
The consequences of sinning under the law is a person will be judged (krinó: to judge, decide)

Obviously because they have God's moral law written in the hearts and consciences. So if people without the law can perish / be punished eternally, how can Paul say sin is not counted where there is no law?

As you note in Romans 2:14-15, Paul does talk about the law written on our hearts.

14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

I do tend to think that the "knowledge of good and evil" and the "law written our hearts" are directly related to "sin entering the world" through Adam.

DB: The consequences of sinning without the law is a person will perish (apollumi: to destroy, destroy utterly)

You're not saying those sinning without the law are destroyed utterly as in annihilationism they cease to exist / no afterlife at all?

Philip wrote: ↑Sat Jun 23, 2018 11:42 am

DB: The consequences of sinning without the law is a person will perish (apollumi: to destroy, destroy utterly)

You're not saying those sinning without the law are destroyed utterly as in annihilationism they cease to exist / no afterlife at all?

I wasn't drawing any conclusion I was just pointing out the contrast that Paul was making.
To be honest, I haven't pondered the implications of that contrast very much.

Kurieuo wrote: ↑Thu Jun 21, 2018 7:56 pm while DBowling has categorically decided for himself that humanity arose 6000 years ago, there is nonetheless as I see matter definitely credence here to accept gaps and extending the time back well before 6000 years.

Let me clean up a couple of misconceptions, and then add what to me is a very significant data point for my position.

a) I have repeatedly stated that I believe that humanity/mankind was created much earlier than 6000 years ago. My personal opinion is that God created mankind (species homo sapiens sapiens) in his image (Genesis 1:26-27) somewhere around 150,000 to 200,000 years ago.

b) And a key point in this discussion...
It is Scripture (not myself) that places the Biblical Adam and Eve somewhere in the 5000-6000 BC time frame. The strongest Scriptural support for this position involves the Genesis 5 and 11 genealogies that provide an uninterrupted genealogical line from Adam to Abraham. As I have pointed out a number of times, the narrative formula used in the Genesis 5 and 11 genealogies just does not allow for the insertion of extra-Scriptural gaps that some try to impose on the Scriptural text.
There is also the culture in Genesis 4 which describes a Neolithic culture consistent with the 5000-6000 BC time frame given by the Genesis 5 and 11 Genealogies. So from a Scriptural perspective Genesis 4, 5, and 11 all place the Biblical Adam and Eve in the 5000-6000 BC time frame.

Now for some extraScriptural archaeological data that validates the Scriptural claims of Genesis 4, 5, and 11.
Genesis 4:17 tells us

17 Cain had relations with his wife and she conceived, and gave birth to Enoch; and he built a city, and called the name of the city Enoch, after the name of his son.

Cain building a city is a significant chronological marker, because the archaeological record tells us when the first cities were built in Mesopotamia.
Two of the oldest cities in Mesopotamia were Eridu and Uruk.
Eridu is the oldest city in Mesopotamia, and possibly the oldest city in the world. Eridu was founded in the 5000-5400 BC time frame. So the founding of Eridu provides a time frame for when cities were first built in Mesopotamia (and the world).

Uruk is another ancient Mesopotamian city. And Uruk relates directly to Genesis 4:17.
Archaeologists have discovered a number of cities of Uruk built on top of each other. The founding of the oldest city of Uruk dates to around 5000 BC.
Here's how Uruk relates to Genesis 4:17...

When cuneiform was being deciphered for the first time, it soon became apparent that some of the cities mentioned in Biblical antiquity were still in existence as mounds and very often the natives in the area had preserved the original name in a modified form. A very important city in antiquity appeared under the name Uruk and a study of cuneiform soon revealed that this could equally well be pronounced Unuk, which was recognized at once by Sayce, and many others, as identical with the Biblical word, Enoch.

This is extremely significant for my position...
The name of one of the oldest cities in Mesopotamia is the same as the name of the city that Cain built in Genesis 4:17.
And archaeology gives us a time and location for the founding of the original city of Uruk that matches the time and location that Scripture provides for the Biblical Cain.

So, my position regarding the time and location of Adam and Eve (and Cain) is supported by:
a) The Scriptural text of Genesis 4, 5, and 11.
b) ExtraScriptural archaeology in the Mesopotamian region.

Placing Adam and Eve and Cain any time prior to Neolithic Mesopotamia:
a) Is inconsistent with the Scriptural text of Genesis 4, 5, and 11
b) Has no external archaeological support

DBowling wrote: ↑Sat Jun 23, 2018 8:52 am In Romans 5:13 Paul tells us that sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Question - if the 'law' in question is the Law of Moses, then what are the implications regarding the spiritual status of everyone who existed from the time of Adam to when God gave the Law to Moses?

After checking out some commentaries, here is what I think Paul is getting at

Romans 5:12-14 (NASB)

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

Romans 5:13 tells us the following
- sin was in the world before the Law of Moses
- In the absence of law sin is not imputed
Romans 5:14 goes on to tell us
- death (which is a result of sin - see Romans 5:12) reigned from Adam until Moses

Which means...
There is another law (other than the Law of Moses) that was in effect from Adam to Moses ... and that also affects those who do not have the Law of Moses.

And Paul talks about that other law earlier in Romans 1 and 2
In Romans 1:19-20 Paul talks about the truth that God has revealed to all mankind through creation.
In Romans 1:32 Paul refers to this truth about God as "the ordinance of God". Paul also notes that those who disobey the ordinance of God are "worthy of death".

In Romans 2:14-15 Paul tells us that those who do not have the Law of Moses still have the "law written on their hearts".

So even though the Law of Moses did not exist until the time of Moses, the "ordinances of God" in creation and the "law of God written on their hearts" did affect all mankind from Adam to Moses as well as anyone who did not have the Law of Moses after the time of Moses.
And since all mankind has disobeyed the ordinances of God in creation and the law of God written on their hearts, then as a result sin and death have passed to all mankind since the time of Adam (Romans 5:12).

However, there is also the fact the word can also mean side not rid tsela. Because other times in the bible it's also translated as side.