Question: What is Math?
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Re: Question: What is Math?
Byb,
please teach me, b/c right now my view is closer to Ken's.
2+2 = 1 e.g. in math where base is 3 and not 10
So, chimps would have their 'chimp math'.
What I view as existing independent of humans is not math but the rules behind the nature.
Math and Physics help to describe them.
P.S. warning: am philosophically not much educated.
please teach me, b/c right now my view is closer to Ken's.
2+2 = 1 e.g. in math where base is 3 and not 10
So, chimps would have their 'chimp math'.
What I view as existing independent of humans is not math but the rules behind the nature.
Math and Physics help to describe them.
P.S. warning: am philosophically not much educated.
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6
#foreverinmyheart
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6
#foreverinmyheart
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Re: Question: What is Math?
Yes.1over137 wrote:Hi Ken,
is not it great that the world is describable by math and physics?
Through science.1over137 wrote: how that can be?
the best way to get things done is by getting everyone on one accord. Rules gets everybody on one accord1over137 wrote: why are there rules?
Ken
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".
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Re: Question: What is Math?
Kenny wrote:I say it is the people who are using math who are consistently making those predictions about the real world that are consistently accurate. After all if people didn't exist, those predictions would not be made; right?Byblos wrote: Math consistently makes predictions about the real world that are consistently extremely accurate. How can that be?
Ken
Yes!Byblos wrote: You keep harping on the idea that if people didn't exist that somehow math would not exist.
Science is defined asByblos wrote: Would physics, chemistry, biology stop existing too?
A branch of knowledge or study dealing with a body of facts or truths systematically arranged and showing the operation of general laws:
Physics, chemistry, biology and all the other sciences would no longer exist if there were nobody around to study them
If Chimps were forced to rediscover the wheel, math would be the same only if they chose to base it on the number 10. If they chose a different number to base math on it would be different. I've explained this already.Byblos wrote: How about this thought experiment, if humans went extinct and in a billion years or so chimps evolved into rational beings, what do you think they would discover about the sum of 2 + 2?
I’ve explained epistemology and ontology a million times already. It seems whenever someone runs out of wrong answers to give, they claim I am confusing epistemology and ontology.Byblos wrote: I will do some harping of my own because it begs repeating over and over until you get. You are yet again confusing epistemology and ontology.
Ken
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".
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Re: Question: What is Math?
Ken,
I have not asked through what we can describe the world (you replied science).
My questions pointed to the origin of rules.
Do you see the difference?
And I do not understand what you mean about rules getting people on one accord. Is that the reason for rules/physics laws/laws of nature?
Please, explain more.
Thank you.
I have not asked through what we can describe the world (you replied science).
My questions pointed to the origin of rules.
Do you see the difference?
And I do not understand what you mean about rules getting people on one accord. Is that the reason for rules/physics laws/laws of nature?
Please, explain more.
Thank you.
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6
#foreverinmyheart
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6
#foreverinmyheart
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Re: Question: What is Math?
First, that assumes rules are objective. And second, that assumes we all can agree on those rules.Kenny wrote:
the best way to get things done is by getting everyone on one accord. Rules gets everybody on one accord
Which means that again, you are talking about epistemology and ontology.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
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Re: Question: What is Math?
There are a million things that describe the world; through science is only one of the many ways the world can be described. I believe people are the origin of the rules people choose to follow.1over137 wrote:Ken,
I have not asked through what we can describe the world (you replied science).
My questions pointed to the origin of rules.
Do you see the difference?
People (usually the leaders of a society) create rules in order to get the entire society on one accord.1over137 wrote: And I do not understand what you mean about rules getting people on one accord.
Ken
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".
Re: Question: What is Math?
Kenny wrote:Yes!Byblos wrote: You keep harping on the idea that if people didn't exist that somehow math would not exist.
That, right there, is the level of irrationality you must descend to in order to justify your position.Kenny wrote:Science is defined asByblos wrote: Would physics, chemistry, biology stop existing too?
A branch of knowledge or study dealing with a body of facts or truths systematically arranged and showing the operation of general laws:
Physics, chemistry, biology and all the other sciences would no longer exist if there were nobody around to study them
You are so far off with the base 10 thing it is rather sad. How could math be different if the base is changed Kenny? Wouldn't that mean if we use a different base that the results will necessarily be different? Is that what you contend? How is it then that computer systems that are based on a binary base yield the same result as base 10 or any other base? You're not making sense at all.Kenny wrote:If Chimps were forced to rediscover the wheel, math would be the same only if they chose to base it on the number 10. If they chose a different number to base math on it would be different. I've explained this already.Byblos wrote: How about this thought experiment, if humans went extinct and in a billion years or so chimps evolved into rational beings, what do you think they would discover about the sum of 2 + 2?
You claim you've explained it in an effort to advance the above smoke-screen. We understand.Kenny wrote:I’ve explained epistemology and ontology a million times already. It seems whenever someone runs out of wrong answers to give, they claim I am confusing epistemology and ontology.Byblos wrote: I will do some harping of my own because it begs repeating over and over until you get. You are yet again confusing epistemology and ontology.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.
Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.
Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.
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Re: Question: What is Math?
Kenny,Kenny wrote:There are a million things that describe the world; through science is only one of the many ways the world can be described. I believe people are the origin of the rules people choose to follow.1over137 wrote:Ken,
I have not asked through what we can describe the world (you replied science).
My questions pointed to the origin of rules.
Do you see the difference?People (usually the leaders of a society) create rules in order to get the entire society on one accord.1over137 wrote: And I do not understand what you mean about rules getting people on one accord.
Ken
I speak about rules/laws like gravity, speed of light etc. Physics laws.
Can we stick to talking about them?
So please, go back to my questions and think only of such laws.
Thank you.
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6
#foreverinmyheart
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6
#foreverinmyheart
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Re: Question: What is Math?
Question for whomever,
Take a look at this figure
This is, of course, a circle.
So here is the question: do we say, "The figure in the picture is a circle" because it, in fact, is a circle; or is the figure in the picture a circle because we say, "The figure in the picture is a circle"? Put slightly differently, does the linguistic construction "The figure in the picture is a circle" obtain (that is, it it true) because it correctly represents and answers to something in reality; or does reality conform to our linguistic construction? Put one last way, does grammar determine reality, or does grammar attempt to reflect reality?
Take a look at this figure
This is, of course, a circle.
So here is the question: do we say, "The figure in the picture is a circle" because it, in fact, is a circle; or is the figure in the picture a circle because we say, "The figure in the picture is a circle"? Put slightly differently, does the linguistic construction "The figure in the picture is a circle" obtain (that is, it it true) because it correctly represents and answers to something in reality; or does reality conform to our linguistic construction? Put one last way, does grammar determine reality, or does grammar attempt to reflect reality?
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
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Re: Question: What is Math?
It's a circle because a human put the image on the computer. No human, no circle.Jac3510 wrote:Question for whomever,
Take a look at this figure
This is, of course, a circle.
So here is the question: do we say, "The figure in the picture is a circle" because it, in fact, is a circle; or is the figure in the picture a circle because we say, "The figure in the picture is a circle"? Put slightly differently, does the linguistic construction "The figure in the picture is a circle" obtain (that is, it it true) because it correctly represents and answers to something in reality; or does reality conform to our linguistic construction? Put one last way, does grammar determine reality, or does grammar attempt to reflect reality?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
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Re: Question: What is Math?
Grammar, and language, attempts to explain reality. We look for ways to understand, wr question.
A circle is a circle, always was, aleays will be. But.. if no one sses that circle?
Still a circle, just not seen.
Math is language.
Physics are facts backed by language.
Math is the symbols of physics
It may all be perception, but whose?
A circle is a circle, always was, aleays will be. But.. if no one sses that circle?
Still a circle, just not seen.
Math is language.
Physics are facts backed by language.
Math is the symbols of physics
It may all be perception, but whose?
Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof - Kahlil Gibran
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Re: Question: What is Math?
Ergo, math attempts to explain reality. "Two" may not exist any more than "circle" does, but circles exist in reality, and so, "twoness" exists in reality. Our word "two" answers to, or refers to, reality, just as our word "circle" refers to reality. Now, just like the word "circulo" and "kreis," and "サークル" all refer to the thing in reality that the English word "circle" refers to, so the sign "2" on a base 10 refers to the same thing that the sign "10" refers to in a base 2. But in both cases, the underlying reality exists objectively. Math, then, regardless of the particular language, is a real part of reality that humans discover and describe in whatever language they happen to prefer (which is usually what is most convenient). We can't confuse the contingency of the language with the objectivity of the reality itself.Storyteller wrote:Grammar, and language, attempts to explain reality. . . Math is language.
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
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Re: Question: What is Math?
Read a book a while ago, Anna and mister God. A 6 year old girl who discovers God along with "God numbers".
She conducts scientific tests to prove math, and God, to an atheist scientific professer.
She died before her seventh birthaday yet she git more about God in His simplicity than many of us do.
She conducts scientific tests to prove math, and God, to an atheist scientific professer.
She died before her seventh birthaday yet she git more about God in His simplicity than many of us do.
Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof - Kahlil Gibran
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Re: Question: What is Math?
Kenny wrote:Yes!Byblos wrote: You keep harping on the idea that if people didn't exist that somehow math would not exist.
Kenny wrote:Science is defined asByblos wrote: Would physics, chemistry, biology stop existing too?
A branch of knowledge or study dealing with a body of facts or truths systematically arranged and showing the operation of general laws:
Physics, chemistry, biology and all the other sciences would no longer exist if there were nobody around to study them
Explain why you disagree with me.Byblos wrote:That, right there, is the level of irrationality you must descend to in order to justify your position.
Kenny wrote:If Chimps were forced to rediscover the wheel, math would be the same only if they chose to base it on the number 10. If they chose a different number to base math on it would be different. I've explained this already.Byblos wrote: How about this thought experiment, if humans went extinct and in a billion years or so chimps evolved into rational beings, what do you think they would discover about the sum of 2 + 2?
On Thursday 4/21/16 at 6:23pm I explained why math would be different if numbers were based upon a number larger than 10. Go back and read what I said and tell me if there is anything you disagree with. Basically I contend a larger base number would mean more single digit numbers, more double digit numbers, more triple digit numbers, etc. than we have now. To me that is different.Byblos wrote:You are so far off with the base 10 thing it is rather sad. How could math be different if the base is changed Kenny? Wouldn't that mean if we use a different base that the results will necessarily be different? Is that what you contend? How is it then that computer systems that are based on a binary base yield the same result as base 10 or any other base? You're not making sense at all.
Ken
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".
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Re: Question: What is Math?
You aren’t offended are you? That was not my intention. First of all, you were not very clear with your question. You asked about “rules” not scientific laws. Do you know the difference? A Scientific law is a statement based upon observation that describes something about the universe that will apply 100% of the time.1over137 wrote:Kenny,Kenny wrote:There are a million things that describe the world; through science is only one of the many ways the world can be described. I believe people are the origin of the rules people choose to follow.1over137 wrote:Ken,
I have not asked through what we can describe the world (you replied science).
My questions pointed to the origin of rules.
Do you see the difference?People (usually the leaders of a society) create rules in order to get the entire society on one accord.1over137 wrote: And I do not understand what you mean about rules getting people on one accord.
Ken
I speak about rules/laws like gravity, speed of light etc. Physics laws.
Can we stick to talking about them?
So please, go back to my questions and think only of such laws.
Thank you.
Gravity is a law, Speed of light? Not a law. Physics laws? There are some scientific laws that applies to physics like Gravity, Laws of motion, laws of thermodynamics, etc. these are known as laws of physics.
Rules (on the other hand) are boundaries people set with each other, in order to coexist peacefully. Big difference.
Because you said rules instead of scientific laws, I responded to what you said; apparently not what you meant.
So I guess your question is; “Why are there scientific laws?” As a Christian I’m sure “God did it” will suffice for you, but I’m sure you know me better than that; the best I can give you is to admit I don’t know.
Ken
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".