Is Atheism a Belief System?

[RickD]

In Kenny's defense, I don't think there are a whole lot of atheists, or anyone else, who believe life came from evolution.

Evolution is a theory describing how life changes, not how life began.

[Byblos]

How do you know the Universe was created? Perhaps something has always existed in one form or another.

I'm the one making the claim kenny, you don't get to redefine my claim. I am claiming the universe, as complex as it is, is created, which, granted for the sake of this discussion only, is an extraordinary claim. You contend that that requires equally as extraordinary evidence. The way the expression is understood, it implies that the creator must also be at least as complex as its creation, correct?

If we are going to go by your terms and assume the Universe was created, extraordinary evidence would probably have to come from the one who actually did the creating; not someone else who claims to speak for this creator.

Ken

Like what? Be a little more specific.

This creator would have to come out of hiding and actually speak for himself! Now that would be extraordinary evidence! Agree?

Ken

Let's assume he did do that. Some believed him, many didn't. Now what?

[Kurieuo]

How do you know the Universe was created? Perhaps something has always existed in one form or another.

I'm the one making the claim kenny, you don't get to redefine my claim. I am claiming the universe, as complex as it is, is created, which, granted for the sake of this discussion only, is an extraordinary claim. You contend that that requires equally as extraordinary evidence. The way the expression is understood, it implies that the creator must also be at least as complex as its creation, correct?

If we are going to go by your terms and assume the Universe was created, extraordinary evidence would probably have to come from the one who actually did the creating; not someone else who claims to speak for this creator.

Ken

Like what? Be a little more specific.

This creator would have to come out of hiding and actually speak for himself! Now that would be extraordinary evidence! Agree?

It would be, and people still didn't believe.

• 7“If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him.”
  
  8Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” 9Jesus said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

I suppose the guy who said that was loco, out of his mind, or possibly just the best most convincing cult leader who ever existed, managing to convince a great portion of the world that he was God even until this day.

[Kurieuo]

In Kenny's defense, I don't think there are a whole lot of atheists, or anyone else, who believe life came from evolution.

Evolution is a theory describing how life changes, not how life began.

Who said it described how life began? Evolution does describe how a diversity of life happened.

[RickD]

In Kenny's defense, I don't think there are a whole lot of atheists, or anyone else, who believe life came from evolution.

Evolution is a theory describing how life changes, not how life began.

Who said it described how life began? Evolution does describe how a diversity of life happened.

You did. here

[Kenny]

And yet, Evolution forms a logically necessary part of the Atheist's belief system.

No; Evolution and God aren't the only choices one can make ya know.

Don't be silly Kenny. If not Evolution, what can an Atheist possibly believe regarding where the rich diversity of life on Earth came from? God?

Anything BUT God. That leaves it pretty wide open!

Yes, the door might be "pretty wide open", but have you peeked inside to see what else is there?
Please, I beg you, don't keep me in suspense any longer, if not Evolution what else can an Atheist believe in?

This conversation is about what an atheist is capable of believing, not what I personally believe. If you wish to discuss what I believe we can do that but that is a different conversation

Ken

[Kurieuo]

In Kenny's defense, I don't think there are a whole lot of atheists, or anyone else, who believe life came from evolution.

Evolution is a theory describing how life changes, not how life began.

Who said it described how life began? Evolution does describe how a diversity of life happened.

You did. here

Err, no I didn't.

[Kenny]

I'm the one making the claim kenny, you don't get to redefine my claim. I am claiming the universe, as complex as it is, is created, which, granted for the sake of this discussion only, is an extraordinary claim. You contend that that requires equally as extraordinary evidence. The way the expression is understood, it implies that the creator must also be at least as complex as its creation, correct?

If we are going to go by your terms and assume the Universe was created, extraordinary evidence would probably have to come from the one who actually did the creating; not someone else who claims to speak for this creator.

Ken

Like what? Be a little more specific.

This creator would have to come out of hiding and actually speak for himself! Now that would be extraordinary evidence! Agree?

Ken

Let's assume he did do that. Some believed him, many didn't. Now what?

Whether people believe him or not, the creator explaining how he created everything would still be extraordinary evidence IMO.

Ken

[Kurieuo]

No; Evolution and God aren't the only choices one can make ya know.

Don't be silly Kenny. If not Evolution, what can an Atheist possibly believe regarding where the rich diversity of life on Earth came from? God?

Anything BUT God. That leaves it pretty wide open!

Yes, the door might be "pretty wide open", but have you peeked inside to see what else is there?
Please, I beg you, don't keep me in suspense any longer, if not Evolution what else can an Atheist believe in?

This conversation is about what an atheist is capable of believing, not what I personally believe. If you wish to discuss what I believe we can do that but that is a different conversation

I think my point has been proven. And, I'm sure also that you believe Evolution is responsible for the diversity of life we see here on Earth. That's kind of the point I'm making if one doesn't believe God exists. So no need to discuss further.

[Kenny]

I'm the one making the claim kenny, you don't get to redefine my claim. I am claiming the universe, as complex as it is, is created, which, granted for the sake of this discussion only, is an extraordinary claim. You contend that that requires equally as extraordinary evidence. The way the expression is understood, it implies that the creator must also be at least as complex as its creation, correct?

If we are going to go by your terms and assume the Universe was created, extraordinary evidence would probably have to come from the one who actually did the creating; not someone else who claims to speak for this creator.

Ken

Like what? Be a little more specific.

This creator would have to come out of hiding and actually speak for himself! Now that would be extraordinary evidence! Agree?

It would be, and people still didn't believe.

• 7“If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him.”
  
  8Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” 9Jesus said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

I suppose the guy who said that was loco, out of his mind, or possibly just the best most convincing cult leader who ever existed, managing to convince a great portion of the world that he was God even until this day.

Neither Jesus nor God wrote the Bible, people who claim to speak for Jesus and God wrote it. That's my point.

Ken

[RickD]

In Kenny's defense, I don't think there are a whole lot of atheists, or anyone else, who believe life came from evolution.

Evolution is a theory describing how life changes, not how life began.

Who said it described how life began? Evolution does describe how a diversity of life happened.

You did. here

Err, no I didn't.

Uh, you asked what could an atheist possibly believe about where the rich diversity of life on earth came from?

Don't be silly Kenny. If not Evolution, what can an Atheist possibly believe regarding where the rich diversity of life on Earth came from? God? Oh, there is panspermia I suppose from alien life in outer space, but this just pushes the question back one.

I guess I was understanding that when you asked where else could life come from, that sounded like life came from evolution.

[RickD]

Nevermind. Now I see you meant the diversity we have now. Not the beginning of life.

That's what I get for coming to Kenny's defense.

Now back to offending him, and being ignored.

[Kenny]

Don't be silly Kenny. If not Evolution, what can an Atheist possibly believe regarding where the rich diversity of life on Earth came from? God?

Anything BUT God. That leaves it pretty wide open!

Yes, the door might be "pretty wide open", but have you peeked inside to see what else is there?
Please, I beg you, don't keep me in suspense any longer, if not Evolution what else can an Atheist believe in?

This conversation is about what an atheist is capable of believing, not what I personally believe. If you wish to discuss what I believe we can do that but that is a different conversation

I think my point has been proven. And, I'm sure also that you believe Evolution is responsible for the diversity of life we see here on Earth.

But this conversation is not about just me, it's about what all atheists are capable of believing.

That's kind of the point I'm making if one doesn't believe God exists. So no need to discuss further.

No further discussions? Fair enough; nice discussing with you my friend

Ken

[RickD]

Kenny doesn't want to answer the question, so he throws out the "get the thread back on track" card.

Maybe Audie should use that one too.

[Kurieuo]

If we are going to go by your terms and assume the Universe was created, extraordinary evidence would probably have to come from the one who actually did the creating; not someone else who claims to speak for this creator.

Ken

Like what? Be a little more specific.

This creator would have to come out of hiding and actually speak for himself! Now that would be extraordinary evidence! Agree?

It would be, and people still didn't believe.

• 7“If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him.”
  
  8Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” 9Jesus said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

I suppose the guy who said that was loco, out of his mind, or possibly just the best most convincing cult leader who ever existed, managing to convince a great portion of the world that he was God even until this day.

Neither Jesus nor God wrote the Bible, people who claim to speak for Jesus and God wrote it. That's my point.

Ok, so I'm willing to listen to any historical critical arguments as to why these particular words might not be attributable to Jesus? Considering, I expect, you've done research and such, understand the scholarship on the matter.

I doubt you'd be letting your personal distaste of Christianity and disbelief in God cloud your beliefs on this matter in discarding absolutely everything. Surely not?