Evidence for God from Science

neo-x wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:

neo-x wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:

Philip wrote:SIGH

One of these days you'll be smiling when you actually see what happens when an evolutionist tangles with a knowledgable Gap Theorist and is totally defeated,unlike with YEC or ID.Some people just have to see it to believe it.

I'm perhaps the only person, ( maybe "Hugh Frey" as well) on this board that you can call an evolutionist, that I appeal to naturalism in almost all ways. I am yet to be convinced or impressed.

The only way to defeat the TOE, is to present evidence against it. I can reject GT and your argument for it based on your weak and in some cases just wrong interpretation, and apparent lack of respect for Hebrew grammar.

On the other hand, no one can do the same with TOE. You have to find evidence to the contrary to actually "defeat" it. Which you don't suppose is needed but really it does.

The Gap Theory can defeat the Theory of Evolution even if you was able to show by Hebrew why you think it is wrong. Because "A Lost World" is still more believable than the theory of evolution based on the evidence that has been dug out of the earth.Once all of the evidence is laid out a lost world without evolution will be more interesting and believable to people over the Theory of Evolution. This is a big reason why I believe The Gap Theory is the correct creation interpretation. The thing is though is nobody has ever seen a debate against a knowledgable Gap Theorist who knows how to blend science into this interpretation and an expert evolutionist and so you doubt it. I have been testing out the Gap Theory against evolutionists on and off for awhile now and I know how effective it is against evolution. All I get these days is evolutionists hiding behind peer review and just declaring evolution is true.

I think you are giving yourself too many brownie points.

Do you know why I accept evolution?
Hint: It has nothing to do with whats more believable.

Me? brownie points? No.I'm trying to give God browny points for this interpretation that I believe is confirmed correct based on the evidence. Also I am respectful to Theistic Evolutionists eventhough I disagree with them.I was open to Theistic Evolution but just could not accept it based on evidence but I don't judge them or their salvation,call them names,make fun of them,etc.Because our creation interpretation does not determine our salvation.I just think they are wrong when it comes to creationism.

abelcainsbrother wrote: Me? brownie points? No.I'm trying to give God browny points for this interpretation that I believe is confirmed correct based on the evidence.

You really think God needs 'em or we can give him some?

And again this isn't a salvation issue so we agree.
However, let me put it to you, I accept evolution and reject GT not because one or the other is more believable.

abelcainsbrother wrote: ↑Fri Mar 10, 2017 11:18 pm I am going to do my best to show biblically why the Gap Theory is true biblically and show why critics are wrong or do not have proper understanding of Gap Creationism.I am going to try to not only show why the Gap Theory is true biblically but also show how much more bible understanding you get from understanding Gap Creationism properly from a biblical perspective that other creation interpretations overlook or don't know about.Gap Creationism enhances your bible knowledge actually and it does'nt get enough recognition so I'm going to try to show you why it is true biblically and so important to creationism and understanding the bible properly.Alot of times the depth of the Gap theory is skimmed over when we are just trying to make a case for it based on a few scriptures but there is so much more that gets lost or is not realized that makes the pages of the bible come alive and reveal so much more and actually enhances our bible knowledge the more you understand it.This will be like an indepth bible study of Gap Creationism that I believe shows it is not only true but important to understand in order to have better bible understanding.The Gap Theory is more important than many Christians realize.

I was partial to the gap theoery but then came across this verse (specifically verse 11; others included for context) in another thread and I think it pretty well puts to rest the gap theory.

Exodus 20:10-12 King James Version (KJV)
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.

Here it quite clearly says that the heaven and the earth were created as part of the six days of creation.

What say you acb?

Stu wrote: ↑Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:46 am

abelcainsbrother wrote: ↑Fri Mar 10, 2017 11:18 pm I am going to do my best to show biblically why the Gap Theory is true biblically and show why critics are wrong or do not have proper understanding of Gap Creationism.I am going to try to not only show why the Gap Theory is true biblically but also show how much more bible understanding you get from understanding Gap Creationism properly from a biblical perspective that other creation interpretations overlook or don't know about.Gap Creationism enhances your bible knowledge actually and it does'nt get enough recognition so I'm going to try to show you why it is true biblically and so important to creationism and understanding the bible properly.Alot of times the depth of the Gap theory is skimmed over when we are just trying to make a case for it based on a few scriptures but there is so much more that gets lost or is not realized that makes the pages of the bible come alive and reveal so much more and actually enhances our bible knowledge the more you understand it.This will be like an indepth bible study of Gap Creationism that I believe shows it is not only true but important to understand in order to have better bible understanding.The Gap Theory is more important than many Christians realize.

I was partial to the gap theoery but then came across this verse (specifically verse 11; others included for context) in another thread and I think it pretty well puts to rest the gap theory.

Exodus 20:10-12 King James Version (KJV)
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.

Here it quite clearly says that the heaven and the earth were created as part of the six days of creation.

What say you acb?

I would say that you need to read and study Genesis 2:1-4 and learn the difference between the words made and created in Genesis 1 and the whole OT. Because you cannot interpret Genesis 1 properly without understanding the difference between the words created and made or in hebrew "bara - created,asah - made,worked,work,etc.

I already covered this in this thread on the Gap Theory and when God created something it is ALWAYS something new that had never been created before but when God made things it means to work on something that already existed or exists based on the context of the verse. And so when it says God MADE heaven and earth in the six days it means he just worked on them to fix them and that they already existed,they were not created new.

And if you go back and read Genesis 1 God really only created the heaven and earth in the beginning whenever that was and only created agaain on day 5 and 6 when he created certian animals and man and woman.Everything else was made and not created in the 6 days. This is why Gap Theorists say God restored the heavens and earth in the 6 days and did not create it in the 6 days.

abelcainsbrother wrote: ↑Sat Jun 23, 2018 7:56 am I already covered this in this thread on the Gap Theory and when God created something it is ALWAYS something new that had never been created before but when God made things it means to work on something that already existed or exists based on the context of the verse. And so when it says God MADE heaven and earth in the six days it means he just worked on them to fix them and that they already existed,they were not created new.

And if you go back and read Genesis 1 God really only created the heaven and earth in the beginning whenever that was and only created agaain on day 5 and 6 when he created certian animals and man and woman.Everything else was made and not created in the 6 days. This is why Gap Theorists say God restored the heavens and earth in the 6 days and did not create it in the 6 days.

Quick follow up on the two items that I underlined.

What are the certain animals that God created on Day 5 (Genesis 1:21)?

You said...
"when God created something it is ALWAYS something new that had never been created before"
Does that mean that you believe that "the great creatures of the sea", and "every living thing with which the water teems" and "every winged bird" had never been created before Day 5?

DBowling wrote: ↑Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:50 am

abelcainsbrother wrote: ↑Sat Jun 23, 2018 7:56 am I already covered this in this thread on the Gap Theory and when God created something it is ALWAYS something new that had never been created before but when God made things it means to work on something that already existed or exists based on the context of the verse. And so when it says God MADE heaven and earth in the six days it means he just worked on them to fix them and that they already existed,they were not created new.

And if you go back and read Genesis 1 God really only created the heaven and earth in the beginning whenever that was and only created agaain on day 5 and 6 when he created certian animals and man and woman.Everything else was made and not created in the 6 days. This is why Gap Theorists say God restored the heavens and earth in the 6 days and did not create it in the 6 days.

Quick follow up on the two items that I underlined.

What are the certain animals that God created on Day 5 (Genesis 1:21)?

You said...
"when God created something it is ALWAYS something new that had never been created before"
Does that mean that you believe that "the great creatures of the sea", and "every living thing with which the water teems" and "every winged bird" had never been created before Day 5?

Yes,the life God created would have been new life that God had never created before.However it does not necessarily tell us what specific life this was other than great creatures of the sea,every living thing with which the water teams and every winged bird,which is not very specific. However I believe the fossil record bears this out if we compare the kinds of extinct life that once lived on the earth in the former world to the kinds of life we have in this world. If we take the time to compare it is obvious new life was created for this world we now live in. I'm answering you from a Gap Theory perspective eventhough you may not agree with it. I already believe this interpretation is true and so I'm looking at this interpretation and the evidence from this perspective.

You may have overlooked it but if you read Genesis 1 the word created is only used three times in the whole chapter everything else was made which means it was not new and God just worked on it.This is why we believe from Genesis 1:3 forward through the rest of the chapter it was restoration,not creation except for certian life on day 5 and man on day 6 that were created. Notice also that some life was made and some life was created like on day 5 some life was made and some was created.

abelcainsbrother wrote: ↑Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:02 pm

DBowling wrote: ↑Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:50 am

abelcainsbrother wrote: ↑Sat Jun 23, 2018 7:56 am I already covered this in this thread on the Gap Theory and when God created something it is ALWAYS something new that had never been created before but when God made things it means to work on something that already existed or exists based on the context of the verse. And so when it says God MADE heaven and earth in the six days it means he just worked on them to fix them and that they already existed,they were not created new.

And if you go back and read Genesis 1 God really only created the heaven and earth in the beginning whenever that was and only created agaain on day 5 and 6 when he created certian animals and man and woman.Everything else was made and not created in the 6 days. This is why Gap Theorists say God restored the heavens and earth in the 6 days and did not create it in the 6 days.

Quick follow up on the two items that I underlined.

What are the certain animals that God created on Day 5 (Genesis 1:21)?

You said...
"when God created something it is ALWAYS something new that had never been created before"
Does that mean that you believe that "the great creatures of the sea", and "every living thing with which the water teems" and "every winged bird" had never been created before Day 5?

Yes,the life God created would have been new life that God had never created before.However it does not necessarily tell us what specific life this was other than great creatures of the sea,every living thing with which the water teams and every winged bird,which is not very specific. However I believe the fossil record bears this out if we compare the kinds of extinct life that once lived on the earth in the former world to the kinds of life we have in this world. If we take the time to compare it is obvious new life was created for this world we now live in.

So based on what you say above about the creatures that were 'created' in Genesis 1:21, would you agree with the following statements...
- Any fossils of any "great creatures of the sea" would be fossils of creatures that lived in 'this world' during or after Day 5.
- Any fossils of any "living things within the water" would be fossils of living things that lived in 'this world' during or after Day 5.
- Any fossils of any "winged bird" would be fossils of birds that lived in 'this world' During or after Day 5.

Would you agree that those three statements are consistent with your position regarding what God 'created' on Day 5 according to Genesis 1:21?

DBowling wrote: ↑Sat Jul 07, 2018 1:30 pm

abelcainsbrother wrote: ↑Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:02 pm

DBowling wrote: ↑Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:50 am

abelcainsbrother wrote: ↑Sat Jun 23, 2018 7:56 am I already covered this in this thread on the Gap Theory and when God created something it is ALWAYS something new that had never been created before but when God made things it means to work on something that already existed or exists based on the context of the verse. And so when it says God MADE heaven and earth in the six days it means he just worked on them to fix them and that they already existed,they were not created new.

And if you go back and read Genesis 1 God really only created the heaven and earth in the beginning whenever that was and only created agaain on day 5 and 6 when he created certian animals and man and woman.Everything else was made and not created in the 6 days. This is why Gap Theorists say God restored the heavens and earth in the 6 days and did not create it in the 6 days.

Quick follow up on the two items that I underlined.

What are the certain animals that God created on Day 5 (Genesis 1:21)?

You said...
"when God created something it is ALWAYS something new that had never been created before"
Does that mean that you believe that "the great creatures of the sea", and "every living thing with which the water teems" and "every winged bird" had never been created before Day 5?

Yes,the life God created would have been new life that God had never created before.However it does not necessarily tell us what specific life this was other than great creatures of the sea,every living thing with which the water teams and every winged bird,which is not very specific. However I believe the fossil record bears this out if we compare the kinds of extinct life that once lived on the earth in the former world to the kinds of life we have in this world. If we take the time to compare it is obvious new life was created for this world we now live in.

So based on what you say above about the creatures that were 'created' in Genesis 1:21, would you agree with the following statements...
- Any fossils of any "great creatures of the sea" would be fossils of creatures that lived in 'this world' during or after Day 5.
- Any fossils of any "living things within the water" would be fossils of living things that lived in 'this world' during or after Day 5.
- Any fossils of any "winged bird" would be fossils of birds that lived in 'this world' During or after Day 5.

Would you agree that those three statements are consistent with your position regarding what God 'created' on Day 5 according to Genesis 1:21?

No because they were created they would all be new life and so there would be no fossils f these kinds of life.If there were fossils of these kinds of life then they would not be new life.So there would be no fossils of these kinds of life God created.However,it is possible that the life God made would be in the fossil record because this would not be new life,but life that had already existed before.

abelcainsbrother wrote: ↑Sat Jul 07, 2018 1:51 pm

So based on what you say above about the creatures that were 'created' in Genesis 1:21, would you agree with the following statements...
- Any fossils of any "great creatures of the sea" would be fossils of creatures that lived in 'this world' during or after Day 5.
- Any fossils of any "living things within the water" would be fossils of living things that lived in 'this world' during or after Day 5.
- Any fossils of any "winged bird" would be fossils of birds that lived in 'this world' During or after Day 5.

Would you agree that those three statements are consistent with your position regarding what God 'created' on Day 5 according to Genesis 1:21?

No because they were created they would all be new life and so there would be no fossils f these kinds of life.If there were fossils of these kinds of life then they would not be new life.So there would be no fossils of these kinds of life God created.However,it is possible that the life God made would be in the fossil record because this would not be new life,but life that had already existed before.

You totally lost me there...

Are you denying that fossils exist of "great creatures of the sea"?
Are you denying that fossils exist of "winged birds"?

Since Genesis 1:21 explicitly states that the "great creatures of the sea" and "winged birds" were 'created/bara' on Day 5, then according to your own assertions those created "great creatures of the sea" and "winged birds" would have to be "new life" that God created on Day 5 in "this world".

One of the following statements has to be true...
1. The fossils of "great creatures of the sea" and "winged birds" are fossils of "new life" that God created on or after Day 5 in 'this world'.
2. The "great creatures of the sea" and "winged birds" that God 'created' on Day 5 were not "new life" because God had already created them previously in your hypothetical "old world". And that would directly contradict your assertion about what the word created/bara means.

DBowling wrote: ↑Sat Jul 07, 2018 2:15 pm

abelcainsbrother wrote: ↑Sat Jul 07, 2018 1:51 pm

So based on what you say above about the creatures that were 'created' in Genesis 1:21, would you agree with the following statements...
- Any fossils of any "great creatures of the sea" would be fossils of creatures that lived in 'this world' during or after Day 5.
- Any fossils of any "living things within the water" would be fossils of living things that lived in 'this world' during or after Day 5.
- Any fossils of any "winged bird" would be fossils of birds that lived in 'this world' During or after Day 5.

Would you agree that those three statements are consistent with your position regarding what God 'created' on Day 5 according to Genesis 1:21?

No because they were created they would all be new life and so there would be no fossils f these kinds of life.If there were fossils of these kinds of life then they would not be new life.So there would be no fossils of these kinds of life God created.However,it is possible that the life God made would be in the fossil record because this would not be new life,but life that had already existed before.

You totally lost me there...

Are you denying that fossils exist of "great creatures of the sea"?
Are you denying that fossils exist of "winged birds"?

Since Genesis 1:21 explicitly states that the "great creatures of the sea" and "winged birds" were 'created/bara' on Day 5, then according to your own assertions those created "great creatures of the sea" and "winged birds" would have to be "new life" that God created on Day 5 in "this world".

One of the following statements has to be true...
1. The fossils of "great creatures of the sea" and "winged birds" are fossils of "new life" that God created on or after Day 5 in 'this world'.
2. The "great creatures of the sea" and "winged birds" that God 'created' on Day 5 were not "new life" because God had already created them previously in your hypothetical "old world". And that would directly contradict your assertion about what the word created/bara means.

For some reason you are not understanding what I've explained and it is like you have your mind made up that it is already wrong about bara meaning new stuff and so you are twisting what I'm saying or just not understanding what I'm saying. If the life God created was new life for this world then there COULD BE no fossils of this life because it is new life. You cannot ignore what new life means and then sonehow claim there would be fossils of that life like you're doing. And it is not my hypothetical words "old world" but these words from God's word "the world at that time" 2nd Peter 3:6 Noah went on the ark in this world and stepped off the ark in this world,keep this in mind.

abelcainsbrother wrote: ↑Sat Jul 07, 2018 2:29 pm

DBowling wrote: ↑Sat Jul 07, 2018 2:15 pm Are you denying that fossils exist of "great creatures of the sea"?
Are you denying that fossils exist of "winged birds"?

Since Genesis 1:21 explicitly states that the "great creatures of the sea" and "winged birds" were 'created/bara' on Day 5, then according to your own assertions those created "great creatures of the sea" and "winged birds" would have to be "new life" that God created on Day 5 in "this world".

One of the following statements has to be true...
1. The fossils of "great creatures of the sea" and "winged birds" are fossils of "new life" that God created on or after Day 5 in 'this world'.
2. The "great creatures of the sea" and "winged birds" that God 'created' on Day 5 were not "new life" because God had already created them previously in your hypothetical "old world". And that would directly contradict your assertion about what the word created/bara means.

For some reason you are not understanding what I've explained and it is like you have your mind made up that it is already wrong about bara meaning new stuff and so you are twisting what I'm saying or just not understanding what I'm saying.

Oh I understand what you are trying to say...
However, your assertions either directly contradict Genesis 1:21, or your assertions are internally inconsistent.. or possibly both.
That's what I'm trying to demonstrate.

If the life God created was new life for this world then there COULD BE no fossils of this life because it is new life. You cannot ignore what new life means and then sonehow claim there would be fossils of that life like you're doing.

Ok let's go back up a few posts...

abelcainsbrother wrote: ↑Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:02 pm

DBowling wrote: ↑Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:50 am You said...
"when God created something it is ALWAYS something new that had never been created before"
Does that mean that you believe that "the great creatures of the sea", and "every living thing with which the water teems" and "every winged bird" had never been created before Day 5?

Yes,the life God created would have been new life that God had never created before.

Based on the answer you gave above, you believe that "great creatures of the sea" and "every winged bird" had never been created/bara before God created/bara them on Day 5 (Genesis 1:21)...
... Is that what you said?

DBowling wrote: ↑Sat Jul 07, 2018 3:12 pm

abelcainsbrother wrote: ↑Sat Jul 07, 2018 2:29 pm

DBowling wrote: ↑Sat Jul 07, 2018 2:15 pm Are you denying that fossils exist of "great creatures of the sea"?
Are you denying that fossils exist of "winged birds"?

Since Genesis 1:21 explicitly states that the "great creatures of the sea" and "winged birds" were 'created/bara' on Day 5, then according to your own assertions those created "great creatures of the sea" and "winged birds" would have to be "new life" that God created on Day 5 in "this world".

One of the following statements has to be true...
1. The fossils of "great creatures of the sea" and "winged birds" are fossils of "new life" that God created on or after Day 5 in 'this world'.
2. The "great creatures of the sea" and "winged birds" that God 'created' on Day 5 were not "new life" because God had already created them previously in your hypothetical "old world". And that would directly contradict your assertion about what the word created/bara means.

For some reason you are not understanding what I've explained and it is like you have your mind made up that it is already wrong about bara meaning new stuff and so you are twisting what I'm saying or just not understanding what I'm saying.

Oh I understand what you are trying to say...
However, your assertions either directly contradict Genesis 1:21, or your assertions are internally inconsistent.. or possibly both.
That's what I'm trying to demonstrate.

If the life God created was new life for this world then there COULD BE no fossils of this life because it is new life. You cannot ignore what new life means and then sonehow claim there would be fossils of that life like you're doing.

Ok let's go back up a few posts...

abelcainsbrother wrote: ↑Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:02 pm

DBowling wrote: ↑Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:50 am You said...
"when God created something it is ALWAYS something new that had never been created before"
Does that mean that you believe that "the great creatures of the sea", and "every living thing with which the water teems" and "every winged bird" had never been created before Day 5?

Yes,the life God created would have been new life that God had never created before.

Based on the answer you gave above, you believe that "great creatures of the sea" and "every winged bird" had never been created/bara before God created/bara them on Day 5 (Genesis 1:21)...
... Is that what you said?

Yes.

abelcainsbrother wrote: ↑Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:50 pm

DBowling wrote: ↑Sat Jul 07, 2018 3:12 pm Ok let's go back up a few posts...

abelcainsbrother wrote: ↑Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:02 pm

DBowling wrote: ↑Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:50 am You said...
"when God created something it is ALWAYS something new that had never been created before"
Does that mean that you believe that "the great creatures of the sea", and "every living thing with which the water teems" and "every winged bird" had never been created before Day 5?

Yes,the life God created would have been new life that God had never created before.

Based on the answer you gave above, you believe that "great creatures of the sea" and "every winged bird" had never been created/bara before God created/bara them on Day 5 (Genesis 1:21)...
... Is that what you said?

Yes.

Do you believe that fossils of "great creatures of the sea" exist?
Do you believe that fossils of "winged birds" exist?

DBowling wrote: ↑Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:25 pm

abelcainsbrother wrote: ↑Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:50 pm

DBowling wrote: ↑Sat Jul 07, 2018 3:12 pm Ok let's go back up a few posts...

abelcainsbrother wrote: ↑Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:02 pm

DBowling wrote: ↑Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:50 am You said...
"when God created something it is ALWAYS something new that had never been created before"
Does that mean that you believe that "the great creatures of the sea", and "every living thing with which the water teems" and "every winged bird" had never been created before Day 5?

Yes,the life God created would have been new life that God had never created before.

Based on the answer you gave above, you believe that "great creatures of the sea" and "every winged bird" had never been created/bara before God created/bara them on Day 5 (Genesis 1:21)...
... Is that what you said?

Yes.

Do you believe that fossils of "great creatures of the sea" exist?
Do you believe that fossils of "winged birds" exist?

No.

abelcainsbrother wrote: ↑Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:34 pm

DBowling wrote: ↑Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:25 pm

abelcainsbrother wrote: ↑Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:50 pm

DBowling wrote: ↑Sat Jul 07, 2018 3:12 pm Ok let's go back up a few posts...

abelcainsbrother wrote: ↑Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:02 pm
Yes,the life God created would have been new life that God had never created before.

Based on the answer you gave above, you believe that "great creatures of the sea" and "every winged bird" had never been created/bara before God created/bara them on Day 5 (Genesis 1:21)...
... Is that what you said?

Yes.

Do you believe that fossils of "great creatures of the sea" exist?
Do you believe that fossils of "winged birds" exist?

No.

Do you believe Archaeopteryx was a "winged bird"?
Do you believe Archaeornithura was a "winged bird"?

Do you believe Plesiosaurus was a "great creature of the sea"?
Do you believe Megalodon was a "great creature of the sea"?