Healthy skepticism of ALL worldviews is good. Skeptical of non-belief like found in Atheism? Post your challenging questions. Responses are encouraged.
kenny wrote:
I made a mistake on my previous reply. You asked if I agree raping an 8 yr old is objectively wrong; then you defined “objectively wrong” as “regardless of anyone’s opinion, it is wrong”. I don’t agree objectively wrong is limited to “regardless of opinion” I think it also includes an ability to demonstrate as wrong.
As far as ontological, I don’t believe it can be applied to morality because its about things with an actual existence; not thoughts and ideas. I believe morality is based on thoughts and ideas. Things with an actual existence can be demonstrated.
Kenny, I sincerely hope you do realize that if your thoughts can't be demonstrated then not only do you not exist, but communication in general is illusory.
I disagree. Thoughts don’t exist by themselves, but can be demonstrated through action.
K
How do we communicate with one another Kenny? Before we can demonstrate anything thru action, what is the principle agent in any good theory of communication?
Thoughts are first, then we communicate our thoughts via actions; usually the act of speaking. Again; no communication takes place until some type of action takes place; unless you learn to read minds.
Ken
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".
If a tree falls in the forest and there is nobody there to hear it, does it make a sound? Yes. When gravity pulls something to the surface of the Earth, the impact will cause an audible sound, and witnesses are not necessary for this to take place. that is an example of an objective truth.
RickD wrote: Ok, I think I understand where you're coming from. Things can be objectively true, but you just don't believe morality is objective. Is that accurate?
Yes
RickD wrote:Would you agree that "my truck is a Chevrolet", is an objective claim? By objective, I mean it's either a Chevrolet, or it's not, and nobody's opinion can change that fact.
Yes.
K
Ok, good.
Since you agree that "my truck is a Chevrolet", is an objective claim, would you agree that the claim, "God exists" is also an objective claim?
Yes.
K
Ok, great.
Would you then agree that a man raping an eight year old girl, is objectively wrong? Meaning, regardless of anyone's opinion, it is wrong to rape an eight year old girl?
Rape is allways wrong, whoever or whatever age the victim is.
Last edited by Justhuman on Sun Jul 23, 2017 2:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ken : How am I supposed to answer that question? Suppose I said all the matter that currently exist in the Universe existed prior to the Big Bang. could you prove me wrong using established scientific theories?
Ken, if you insist that matter existed prior to the Big Bang, then either you don't believe the overwhelming number of physicists and studies that deny that, or you don't understand basic Big Bang science assertions and studies. You are asserting something that science says isn't true. And so your belief in the, yes, the MAGIC, of blind, random matter, to self-organize so brilliantly and to coordinate with itself, while also recognizing and harnessing such unfathomable power - you are insisting that the irrational and mathematically, IMMENSELY improbable is possible. Really, Ken, what level of exponential math would make you realize an impossibility the equivalent of rocks, given enough time, learning how to do and take advatage of algebra and calculus. Oh, and btw, the rocks have to be either eternal or created.
If you categorically deny that matter did/cannot exist before the BB (in an evolutionary universe), and only God can be the innitiator of the BB, you have to explain where God got all that matter from. Even God cannot (?) create something from nothing. How can God from His immaterial realm create and control a material substance?
Since you agree that "my truck is a Chevrolet", is an objective claim, would you agree that the claim, "God exists" is also an objective claim?
Yes.
K
Ok, great.
Would you then agree that a man raping an eight year old girl, is objectively wrong? Meaning, regardless of anyone's opinion, it is wrong to rape an eight year old girl?
Rape is allways wrong, whoever or whatever age the victim is.
Ok Justhuman, then I'll ask you what I was going to ask Kenny. If rape is objectively wrong, meaning that it's wrong regardless of anyone's opinion, then what is the basis for it being wrong?
If it's "wrongness" didn't originate in the minds of people, where did it come from?
John 5:24 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
Since you agree that "my truck is a Chevrolet", is an objective claim, would you agree that the claim, "God exists" is also an objective claim?
Yes.
K
Ok, great.
Would you then agree that a man raping an eight year old girl, is objectively wrong? Meaning, regardless of anyone's opinion, it is wrong to rape an eight year old girl?
Rape is allways wrong, whoever or whatever age the victim is.
Ok Justhuman, then I'll ask you what I was going to ask Kenny. If rape is objectively wrong, meaning that it's wrong regardless of anyone's opinion, then what is the basis for it being wrong?
If it's "wrongness" didn't originate in the minds of people, where did it come from?
If it's objectively wrong, how come it's wrongness can't originate from the mind of a person?
Ken
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".
Since you agree that "my truck is a Chevrolet", is an objective claim, would you agree that the claim, "God exists" is also an objective claim?
Yes.
K
Ok, great.
Would you then agree that a man raping an eight year old girl, is objectively wrong? Meaning, regardless of anyone's opinion, it is wrong to rape an eight year old girl?
Rape is allways wrong, whoever or whatever age the victim is.
Ok Justhuman, then I'll ask you what I was going to ask Kenny. If rape is objectively wrong, meaning that it's wrong regardless of anyone's opinion, then what is the basis for it being wrong?
If it's "wrongness" didn't originate in the minds of people, where did it come from?
Do you mean you want some 'general rule of wrongfulness'?
The basis would be it is wrong to do any harm to any being against their consent. The basis is too to avoid pain, or to willingly inflict as less pain as possible. That makes it too a human thing, for other beings might have other perspectives.
I'm not sure whether human is the only species with a sense of right/wrong. Is it solely a human thing?
Did we allways have a sense of right/wrong? Or has it gradually evolved from 'unknowing ignorance' into 'intelligent reasoning'?
Would you then agree that a man raping an eight year old girl, is objectively wrong? Meaning, regardless of anyone's opinion, it is wrong to rape an eight year old girl?
Rape is allways wrong, whoever or whatever age the victim is.
Ok Justhuman, then I'll ask you what I was going to ask Kenny. If rape is objectively wrong, meaning that it's wrong regardless of anyone's opinion, then what is the basis for it being wrong?
If it's "wrongness" didn't originate in the minds of people, where did it come from?
If it's objectively wrong, how come it's wrongness can't originate from the mind of a person?
Ken
By definition, objective means regardless of the opinions of someone. So, objective morality must come from somewhere other than from us. It's simple logic.
John 5:24 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
Justhuman wrote:
Do you mean you want some 'general rule of wrongfulness'?
The basis would be it is wrong to do any harm to any being against their consent. The basis is too to avoid pain, or to willingly inflict as less pain as possible. That makes it too a human thing, for other beings might have other perspectives.
No, not a general rule. An origin of that rule perhaps. If it is always wrong to rape an 8 year old, where does that objective morality come from?
I'm not sure whether human is the only species with a sense of right/wrong. Is it solely a human thing?
Did we allways have a sense of right/wrong? Or has it gradually evolved from 'unknowing ignorance' into 'intelligent reasoning'?
Again, pertaining to my point, if there is an objective rule that says rape is wrong, where did that rule come from? It seems that we're all agreeing that it's always wrong to rape an 8 year old. So, what is the reason why it's always wrong?
John 5:24 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
Would you then agree that a man raping an eight year old girl, is objectively wrong? Meaning, regardless of anyone's opinion, it is wrong to rape an eight year old girl?
Rape is allways wrong, whoever or whatever age the victim is.
Ok Justhuman, then I'll ask you what I was going to ask Kenny. If rape is objectively wrong, meaning that it's wrong regardless of anyone's opinion, then what is the basis for it being wrong?
If it's "wrongness" didn't originate in the minds of people, where did it come from?
If it's objectively wrong, how come it's wrongness can't originate from the mind of a person?
Ken
By definition, objective means regardless of the opinions of someone.
Yes regardless of anyone's opinion; even God's. Because even if God said raping an 8 yr old girl is good, it would still be wrong, right?
K
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".
Justhuman wrote:
Do you mean you want some 'general rule of wrongfulness'?
The basis would be it is wrong to do any harm to any being against their consent. The basis is too to avoid pain, or to willingly inflict as less pain as possible. That makes it too a human thing, for other beings might have other perspectives.
No, not a general rule. An origin of that rule perhaps. If it is always wrong to rape an 8 year old, where does that objective morality come from?
I'm not sure whether human is the only species with a sense of right/wrong. Is it solely a human thing?
Did we allways have a sense of right/wrong? Or has it gradually evolved from 'unknowing ignorance' into 'intelligent reasoning'?
Again, pertaining to my point, if there is an objective rule that says rape is wrong, where did that rule come from? It seems that we're all agreeing that it's always wrong to rape an 8 year old. So, what is the reason why it's always wrong?
Ultimately, the reason is man-made morality.
Unless you believe that God hard-wired us in considering it wrong, it comes down to free choice.
Though, not everyone has the same morality, because in certain circumstances, like war or terrorism, raping is considered a valid means to gain 'control' or intimidate the enemy.
Whether it's considered wrong does depend on place, time, circumstances, and who.
Personally, I think all reasons to justify rape are false.
Justhuman wrote:
Do you mean you want some 'general rule of wrongfulness'?
The basis would be it is wrong to do any harm to any being against their consent. The basis is too to avoid pain, or to willingly inflict as less pain as possible. That makes it too a human thing, for other beings might have other perspectives.
No, not a general rule. An origin of that rule perhaps. If it is always wrong to rape an 8 year old, where does that objective morality come from?
I'm not sure whether human is the only species with a sense of right/wrong. Is it solely a human thing?
Did we allways have a sense of right/wrong? Or has it gradually evolved from 'unknowing ignorance' into 'intelligent reasoning'?
Again, pertaining to my point, if there is an objective rule that says rape is wrong, where did that rule come from? It seems that we're all agreeing that it's always wrong to rape an 8 year old. So, what is the reason why it's always wrong?
I never said rape of an 8 yr old girl is wrong due to some rule written down somewhere, I said it was wrong due to MY rule.
Ken
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".
kenny wrote:
Yes regardless of anyone's opinion; even God's. Because even if God said raping an 8 yr old girl is good, it would still be wrong, right?
I never said rape of an 8 yr old girl is wrong due to some rule written down somewhere, I said it was wrong due to MY rule.
Im sorry Kenny. I don't mean to be rude, but if your responses are going to be nonsense, then I can't continue trying to have a conversation with you.
John 5:24 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
Ultimately, the reason is man-made morality.
Unless you believe that God hard-wired us in considering it wrong, it comes down to free choice.
As I'm a Christian, you'd probably be able to guess where I think objective morality comes from.
I'd like to hear where you think it comes from. Objective morality, by definition, cannot be "man-made". Remember, if something is objectively wrong, it's wrong even if some people don't think it's wrong. Subjective morality, it could be argued, is man-made.
Do you see the difference?
John 5:24 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
kenny wrote:
Yes regardless of anyone's opinion; even God's. Because even if God said raping an 8 yr old girl is good, it would still be wrong, right?
I never said rape of an 8 yr old girl is wrong due to some rule written down somewhere, I said it was wrong due to MY rule.
Im sorry Kenny. I don't mean to be rude, but if your responses are going to be nonsense, then I can't continue trying to have a conversation with you.
Why is this nonsense? If the rape you described is objectively wrong, that would mean in theory if God said it were right, that would make God wrong; do you agree? It seems to me, in order for morality to be objective, God would have to be subject to those laws of morality; even if they are his laws! Otherwise it is all subjective to God. If you disagree, tell me where I’m going wrong.
Ken
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".
kenny wrote:
Yes regardless of anyone's opinion; even God's. Because even if God said raping an 8 yr old girl is good, it would still be wrong, right?
I never said rape of an 8 yr old girl is wrong due to some rule written down somewhere, I said it was wrong due to MY rule.
Im sorry Kenny. I don't mean to be rude, but if your responses are going to be nonsense, then I can't continue trying to have a conversation with you.
Why is this nonsense? If the rape you described is objectively wrong, that would mean in theory if God said it were right, that would make God wrong; do you agree? It seems to me, in order for morality to be objective, God would have to be subject to those laws of morality; even if they are his laws! Otherwise it is all subjective to God. If you disagree, tell me where I’m going wrong.
Ken
First, God cannot have an opinion.
Second, IF rape is objectively wrong, then God wouldn't say it's right. Just like God can't create a three-sided square. It's nonsense.
John 5:24 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
