Evidence for God from Science

Mastermind wrote:Umm, I think that refers to the believers to act as one LIKE God, not act or be one WITH God. I fail to see how one can deduce that we will all become like God from that verse.

Chirst says, "that they may be one, as we are." Chirst and Eloheim are not one person but rather one in unity and purpose. We have potential to become one with them in unity and purpose and once we show God that we are obedient and not miss use his Priestood, we will be granted all that he has to offer, and we will be one, as they are.

I understand that stance. However, I don't understand how you derived it from that verse, as Jesus never says we will become like God in it. It just says we will be united <b>Like</b> the trinity, not with the trinity.

Mastermind wrote:I understand that stance. However, I don't understand how you derived it from that verse, as Jesus never says we will become like God in it. It just says we will be united <b>Like</b> the trinity, not with the trinity.

How can you be UNITED like something, if you were united like the trinity what would you be united with? do you see the logic? Just think about it if you can show God that you will obey and never miss use his power he is more than willing to grant it to you, because you are one with him as Christ is one with Him.

The mormon church has changed their teachings (again) if they dont any longer believe that they will be become gods.
but that is normal for mormon false prophets to do, just like the book of mormon has undergone 4000 thousand changes since its original in 1830. the mormon church is always changing that is why my parents no longer can tell me what the mormons really believe. They have been mormons for 30+ yrs and what they know is not the same as mormons of today.
The truth is that you cant really believe any thing totally that the mormon false prophets teach. the proof is in the books; their very own books have contradiction after contradiction and know you dont have to take anything out of context to see them. whats sad but true is that when you ask mormons about these things the only thing they can say is "well i dont know" God is not a God of confusion.
I can give many examples of the confusing mormon books but ill list one for you and remember that the D&C, pearl of great price and the book of mormon are according to joseph smith and brigham young "the word of God". read D&C 42:18,42:79,132:27 and then read mosiah 4:2-8 in the book of mormon. there is so much overwhelming info about the truth of mormonism and its false prophets, get a copy of the book "MORMONISM- A WAY THAT SEEMETH RIGHT" written by L. Aubrey Guard, and also go to the web site http://www.luciferlink.org
these are not mormon bashers as you might already be thinking but i dare any mormon to seek this info with an inquisitive heart for the truth.
I mean really people do honestly think that God is from the planet kolob and has a secret hand shake.

Kurieuo wrote: From my understanding Mormons do not recognise Christ as their Lord and Savior, rather Jesus was the first of many sons. In other words they would be in the same boat as anyone else who hasn't accepted Christ.

Mormons believe in their version of Christ:

"3. We believe that through the atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

5. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof."

They believe they belong to the only true church and are the only ones with authority from God and that you must obey the laws and ordinances of their church to have eternal life.

Joseph Smith said, "My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.

I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: 'they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.'

He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time."


Only worthy Mormons will have eternal life according to their beliefs. Catholics and Protestants will spend eternity in another kingdom unless they convert to Mormonism in this life or in the place they call the "spirit world."

Jasonstudley27 wrote:

Mastermind wrote:Umm, I think that refers to the believers to act as one LIKE God, not act or be one WITH God. I fail to see how one can deduce that we will all become like God from that verse.

Chirst says, "that they may be one, as we are." Chirst and Eloheim are not one person but rather one in unity and purpose. We have potential to become one with them in unity and purpose and once we show God that we are obedient and not miss use his Priestood, we will be granted all that he has to offer, and we will be one, as they are.

God the Father does not have the name Elohim. There is only one God; He is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Joseph Smith had the gall to say that 19th century Christianity was an abomination in His sight. I declare that Mormonism is an abomination in His sight!

What kind of person was Joseph Smith anyway? He was the kind of person who taught this:

"God himself was once a man as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned on yonder heavens!… I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see… It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did; and I will show it from the Bible."
(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith
by Joseph Fielding Smith, p345-346 )

"I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods." ( Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 370.)

Many men say there is one God; the Father, the Son, and the
Holy Spirit are only one God. I say that is a strange God, anyhow
- Three in one and one in three. It is a curious organization ...
all are to be crammed into one God, according to sectarianism. It
would make the biggest God in all the world ... he would be a
giant or a monster." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.
372; History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 476)

Instead of following Joseph Smith, we need to learn what God has said:

Isaiah 43
10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

\0/Praising God for his mercy and grace\0/,
Mandi

Jasonstudley27 wrote:

Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He is Heavenly Father's Only Begotten Son in the flesh. He is our Redeemer. Through Jesus Christ, Heavenly Father has provided a way for all people to become like Him and return to live with Him forever.
We love Christ. We worship Christ. He is our example and our Savior.


Although I do completely agree with your definition of hell, in that it would be "Hell" to not live in the presence of God. Although I feel that God loves and cares about us and only wants us happy and comfortable which is why I don't belive there is a "Hell" were people are tortured.... think about it, is a person who murdered someone going to feel comfortable in the presence of God? would you? But regarless God still loves you just as much as he did before, he wants you happy and comfortable though so you would not want to dwell with God because you would feel misrabel. This does not mean that you will never bask in the presence of God, the Bible only says, "no unclean thing can DWELL in the presence of God" so im sure "sinners" will be blessed with his presence occasionally.

According to Mormonism, all non-Mormons will be separated from Heavenly Father forever. He will not allow them in his presence nor will he visit them.

D&C 19:3-4 "...the last great day of judgment, which I shall pass upon the inhabitants thereof, judging every man according to his works and the deeds which he hath done. And surely every man must repent or suffer, for I, God, am endless."

"Remember that to obtain forgiveness from the Lord and his Church one must: (1) realize the seriousness of the sin and pray in great humility and sorrow, (2) forsake the sin and not repeat it, (3) confess the sin to the bishop or other Church authority, (4) restore as far as possible that which was damaged, and (5) live all the commandments of the Lord. And when he has fasted enough, suffered enough, and when his heart is right, he may expect that forgiveness will come..." (Spencer W. Kimball, Repentance Brings Forgiveness)

D&C 14:6-7 "Keep my commandments in all things. And, if you keep my commandments and endure to the end you shall have eternal life, which gift is the greatest of all the gifts of God."

D & C 64:23 "Behold, now it is called today until the coming of the Son of Man, and verily it is a day of sacrifice, and a day for the tithing of my people; for he that is tithed shall not be burned at his coming."

Mormons have to pay to be forgiven!

You say Jesus is your Redeemer. But what is redemption according to Mormonism? It is only resurrection, not eternal life. You claim that all people will be resurrected whether they go to be with God or not.

Mormon 9: 13 "And because of the redemption of man, which came by Jesus Christ, they are brought back into the presence of the Lord; yea, this is wherein all men are redeemed, because the death of Christ bringeth to pass the resurrection, which bringeth to pass a redemption from an endless sleep, from which sleep all men shall be awakened by the power of God when the trump shall sound; and they shall come forth, both small and great, and all shall stand before his bar, being redeemed and loosed from this eternal band of death, which death is a temporal death."


Jacob 6:9 "Know ye not that if ye will do these things, that the power of the redemption and the resurrection, which is in Christ, will bring you to stand with shame and awful guilt before the bar of God?"

Oh, no, that's not biblical!

\0/Praising God for his mercy and grace\0/,
Mandi

Hi Mandi and everyone else earlier Mandi quoted on of the vision accounts of joseph smith that account was one of eight different accounts that exist.
The one that Mandi quoted is from the 1838 first vision account.
I would like to point out a very important key point that joseph claims happened to him in the 1838 account which by the way is now the LDS's official version, that he was visited by two personages
"I saw two personages whose brightness and glory
defy all description standing above me in the air
one of them spake to me and said(pointing to the other)
'this is my beloved son, hear him.'
This is a direct contradiction to the bible and to the book of mormon.
In the old testament God appeared to men many times by theophanies(God appearing as man or angel) but he was never seen in his full glory.
Exodus 33:20 God tells moses that NO MAN could see him and live.

John 1:18 and 1 John 4:12
no man has seen God at any time and the bible tells us the reason is because God is a spirit John 4:24 He is invisible Colossians1:15
1 timothy 1:17 In the mormon book called the D&C 84:21-22 it states "without the authority of the priesthood the power of godliness is not manifest unto man in the flesh; For without this no man can see the face of God, even the father, and live."
Mormon Apostle parley p. pratt stated in 1841 that "without the Melchizedek, no man can see God and live." (writings of parley p. pratt,p.306).
It would have been impossible for joseph to see God because the priesthood had not yet been conferred on him neither had the LDS church been established.


the twoedged sword

Shoot, what happened to Jasonstudley27? I was really wanted to see how he answered Mandi, but I guess he's gone now.

I reckon Mormonism seems very Christian if you keep Joe Smith and that book of Mormon out of it. But the Mormon's actually put those 2 in front of the bible don't they?

CountryBoy wrote:I reckon Mormonism seems very Christian if you keep Joe Smith and that book of Mormon out of it. But the Mormon's actually put those 2 in front of the bible don't they?

That's my understanding...

Sorry I reposted the message above, my Bad. I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints [Mormon], I am a convert of a little while [I am formerly of the Methodist Church and Fundamentalist Independant Baptist Church ]. As an LDS Member I accept and acknowledge Jesus Christ as THE LORD OF LIFE,MASTER,SAVIOR,KING,GOD. I just wanted to share this in response to the post above which stated that LDS in there Doctrine do not recognize tthat Jesus is there LORD and Savior. There may be some LDS who don't know the true LDS Doctrine,Teaching,Practice, Thought on this issue, if not they have not studied. I make no claim of expertise, I am just a simple Lay member.
A excellent book on dialogue between LDS and non LDS Christians is the book: How Wide The Divide, by Evangelical Baptist Minister Craig Blomberg and Former Dean Of Religion at BYU Stephen Robinson. The book was put out by Inter Varsity Press. Grace/Peace to all. In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan.

It seems like the arguing and discussion never ends. Both sides rely on the Holy Spirit to guide them and both sides will defend that the Spirit has told them they are in the right and the other in the wrong. I ernestly prayed for this guide and direction in my life with some LDS missionaries in my life back in college, but Christianity prevailed. I am open-minded and am fasting tomorrow to ask God about the validity of Joseph Smith once again at the request of some LDS missionaries. A main problem I have with Smith is the arrogance in his teachings and the lack of physical evidence of his whole story. Not that dealing with God is like gambling, but if one has to choose the safer side it is definitely mainsteam evangelical Christianity becasue at least I'm gauranteed some spot in Heaven(s), whichever level it might be if the Mormons are right. I am also one not to judge because that is left up to God but as long as the idea of continual progression exists, it is hard for me to remove the possible selfish motives and works-based system for progressing as far as you can. It is true that faith without works is death and the most natural thing for us to do is obey God's commands through Christ to produce good fruit and spread His gospel. Most of need to spend more time serving the poor & evangelizing rather than bickering between ourselves. God have mercy on us! In response to Tanyan's reference to the book "How Wide the Divide", even though it was produced by a Christian publishing company, it presents Dr. Robinson's opinion in an effort to make Mormanism sound more like mainstream Christianity rather than what you will hear taught at LDS general conference. With that I recommend the book "Is The Mormon My Brother?" by James R. White who states what is mentioned above.

Concerned with growing closer to God,
Chad

I would like to thank afcerogers for his kind response as how he views the subject in question. I see Stephen E. Robinson stating LDS Doctrine/Teaching/Thought/Practice correctly to LDS and non LDS readers. General Conference talks are given more to lay member understanding but exhorting them to become more scripturaly literate in how they [LDS members ] communicate with non LDS Christians. As for the works based system I have always taken my behavior [Works in response to my abiding Faith in THE LORD OF LIFE] to and my fellow man as a Covenant respose to saying Thank You to Jesus for his AWSOME SACRIFICE on my behalf, a reading of LDS scripture would reveal that our works do not merit Salvation for us but keep us on a Living Faith in which those works should be born out of.
As to the Book by James White there have been a number of responses to this polemical work done by various LDS Members/Lay Apologists as with other works on LDS by Mr. White and others who are critical of LDS Doctrine/Teaching/Thought/Practice. LDS Apologetic material in the form of Books/Journals/Papers/Tracts/DVD'S/Video's/CD's/Audio Cassettes/Web Sites dealing with all aspects of Israelite/Christian Sciences and any Science dealing with our critics claims have been responded to adinfinentum. For starters, http://www.shields-research.org then click web links after you have read the opening page. May Grace Rain on you all this night and in the days ahead. In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan.

What does the book of mormon offer that God's Bible does not offer? What does joe smith say that Jesus did not already say?

If nothing, why does mormonism seem to put the book of mormon in front of the Bible and why is joe smith out in front of Jesus?

From my lights The Book Of Mormon is an additional witness to The Monarch Of The Universe GOD THE FATHER, THE LORD OF LIFE CHRIST JESUS, and THE TESTATOR OF ALL TRUTH THE HOLY GHOST. It is a second witness standing together with THE HOLY BIBLE in response to the constant attacks of atheists, humanists, liberal christians and churches with heretical doctrines/teachings/. The Bible and BofM are Brothers in the same cause for truth.
joe smith ?, Joseph Smith JR. [His actual name] was no more a Prophet/Apostle that the O.T/N.T Prophets/Apostles, his calling was to bare Testimony and Witness that GOD lives, Jesus Is the Christ and that they are still alive and well and that they still speak today. In reality People ignore what THE LORD OF LIFE has said in our world both in the past and today and Joseph Smith reminded what was said and that there is more.
In reality The Bible and book of Mormon are used together on the same par. The Book of Mormon is stressed maybe more due to help understanding the Bible and Doctrines. The same could be said of critics of early Biblical/post Biblical Christians, Why do you have a "New Testement"/Propthets and Apostles when we already have the Word of GOD and the Prophets of Old ?.
In LDS Doctrine/Teaching/Thought/Practice Joseph Smith J.R is not more importent than THE LORD OF LIFE CHRIST JESUS, he was the Prophet that was used to restore what was lost. A modern day John The Baptist you might say, just as John the Baptist in the N.T prepared everone for the coming of Jesus the first time, Joseph Smith J.R prepared people for his second coming. Once again I refer you to the web address above to examine/seek out published material to help you in your quest. Thank you, may Grace Rain On You this Day/Night. IN HIS DEBT/GRACe, TANYAN.