Evidence for God from Science

And Vash, to try to answer your question, I do not consider it dishonouring according to those verses. You are to obey her in Christ because obedience towards God-given authority is obedience to God, but with regards to sins, I don't see it as wrong to recognize them in our parents. And if recognized, to feel rightly that they are doing something... sinful and wrong! lol

I'd like to go further on this issue, but that would be getting off-topic, and meant for another thread specifically on the issue!

For whatever it's worth, they aren't getting divorced BECAUSE she has a boyfriend. They both (my dad also has a girlfriend) looked at it as "Well we may be married now but not for long, and we're not commited to each other anymore anyway...."

So if you do feel the need to judge, at least understand that my mom isn't the only one sinning in this situation.

kateliz wrote:I'm just a bit flabergasted here. Aren't we being a bit too "politically correct" in our concern over whether we're, (I'm, to be more specific,) judging here or not??? I mean, come on! The woman has a boyfriend while she's still married.

.......

*sigh* And I could say the same thing about some of you judging me and my own heart as you have claimed I've done toward Vash's mother. I see real hypocrisy here. You've judged me based on evidence of what I've written, and so have I for this lady.

Here's the thing, I wasn't talking to her. I was speaking to her son, who it seemed to me accepted this sin without qualm. As a fellow Christian I felt obligated to point this out for his benefit. And if I were to talk to her, I would do it in love, with sympathy for her sinful human condition, humility on my part, and speak truth to her with all that.

But nevertheless, are we not forgetting here how the apostles spoke to hard-hearted sinners? And as well, how Christ Himself did too? He sought repentence from people, but for unremorseful people He was just in His displeasure.

I, in speaking only to the son, and with seeing in his post that her current state is in delight over this boyfriend as such, feel I was not being unjust or unChristian in my responding post towars her.

Kate, to whom are you addressing your comment regarding hypocrisy, etc?
I personally have not been judging anyone, you included, although it seems as though not judging is considered being "too PC". In other words, there is some confusion here that needs clearing up.

Check out 1 Corinthians 5:12, 13. Paul says "What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside."
If someone is not a Christian, then they have not committed themselves to obedience to God's law. Ultimately God will deal with them in good time, but in the meantime, we are not to judge them. First things first - do what is required to bring that person to Jesus, but follow the leading and guidance of the Holy Spirit in doing so. Pointing out a specific sin may not be the best way to do it in every case. It may well have the opposite effect from what you set out to get.

And I don't consider my own self "judging" IMO. Sin is sin is sin, and why am I getting the third degree just because I called it such? If I go further I'll only invoke more negative responses.

This is part of why I left the forums. I got tired of these never-ending struggles that didn't get near as far as they should, IMO, for productive Christian discussion. But, I must be invoking more wrath by saying that!

Ugh, I seem like I have such a bad attitude here, I know... it's just that something about this disagreement is really getting my goat.

1. None of us knows whether Vash's mother's relationship in this regard is sinful or not, and frankly, none of us is in a position to determine that except for Vash. Vash is a new believer who is now learning a great deal and frankly is not in a position of authority over his mother.

2. As has been pointed out, the issue more relevant is whether Vash's mom is a Christian.

3. In terms of Jesus dealing with people in Sin, he was kind first before he was direct, except in the case of the Pharisees who were hypocrites.

4. If there is a need for rebuke in this realm, we have a formula in Scripture in Matt 18, that directs that rebuke in this regard should be done in person, or in this context by pm rather than publically on the board.

I'd like to see this discussion curtailed in this realm.

Frankly, Vash is a new believer and exploring and learning new things and I see us as highly privileged to be able to have a part in guiding and encouraging him. Let's not abuse that privilege or get off track.

Vash, if you have questions and we can help in this regard, we are here for you.

If you wish to pm any of us who are moderators or anyone else on this board for help or questions that you are not comfortable with, you are always welcome to do so.

The moderators on this board are August, Bizzt, Felgar and myself.

Blessings,

Bart

kateliz wrote: And I don't consider my own self "judging" IMO. Sin is sin is sin, and why am I getting the third degree just because I called it such? If I go further I'll only invoke more negative responses.

This is part of why I left the forums. I got tired of these never-ending struggles that didn't get near as far as they should, IMO, for productive Christian discussion. But, I must be invoking more wrath by saying that!

Ugh, I seem like I have such a bad attitude here, I know... it's just that something about this disagreement is really getting my goat.

Kateliz,

Please accept my sincerest apologies if I came across as judgmental towards you. That was the absolute furthest thing from my mind, considering I was the one telling you not to be judgmental in the first place.

I do see what you're saying and I believe you are very sincere in pointing out what you perceive to be a sin to a fellow Christian. Forgive me if I sounded as if I were doubting your intentions, I'm not. All I was trying to say was that perception can at times be deceptive and, unless one knows for certain what's in someone else's heart, it is, in my view, the prudent thing to do to withhold judgment or to merely point out the situation without coming across as judgmental for the sake of others involved.

I hope you stick around this time as your opinion is valued and appreciated.

God bless,

John.

I dont know how this topic came to something of an argument, but I will simply share my christian testimony.

Since the age of 8, i have been going to church. For another 8 years, i NEVER knew what it meant to be a christian, since i nevered paid attention in church then well, then that year(nine years) I came across a few individuals that seemed intent on destroying my faith. I would have simply taken it, but something inside told me it would be a shame to merely stand there and not defend what i have been taught for so many years. Though i did not succeed in defending my faith, the desire to know what christianity was about finally came that day. I began to ask so many questions that I bet my teachers' heads spun . I soon began to read the Bible more, study it intensely, and prayed so much that it became a vital part of my life. Confessions in prayer came everyday. Though at times i fall, as do we all, I always got back up. Now, i choose to live as a christian rather than be called one merely by name.

omimanordude wrote:I dont know how this topic came to something of an argument, but I will simply share my christian testimony.

Since the age of 8, i have been going to church. For another 8 years, i NEVER knew what it meant to be a christian, since i nevered paid attention in church then well, then that year(nine years) I came across a few individuals that seemed intent on destroying my faith. I would have simply taken it, but something inside told me it would be a shame to merely stand there and not defend what i have been taught for so many years. Though i did not succeed in defending my faith, the desire to know what christianity was about finally came that day. I began to ask so many questions that I bet my teachers' heads spun . I soon began to read the Bible more, study it intensely, and prayed so much that it became a vital part of my life. Confessions in prayer came everyday. Though at times i fall, as do we all, I always got back up. Now, i choose to live as a christian rather than be called one merely by name.

Thanks for sharing and welcome to our board.

Bart

Hi folks. I joined the message board a couple of days ago. This is my testimony:
I was brought up as a Catholic, although my parents where both rather
nominal, their only church attendance being Christmas and Easter. I was
christened, confirmed and all that, but didn't really have an
understanding of what I was meant to believe. By the time i was about
fourteen, I had 'invented' a kind of belief system that I could feel
comfortable with. It was a kind of pantheistic nature worship; very
imaginative !(it involved me evolving into a kind of godhood. I
later found out it wasn't a new idea).
At sixteen I got involved with a youth group run by the Catholic
Church called Genesis 2, which brought me into a more Christian
atmosphere, taught me a little bit about the bible and Jesus, and
generally helped me along through the latter part of adolescence.
Disaster struck when I was eighteen. Desperate to find work, I left
home in Scotland and moved to England where I got a job as a nurse. I
had some money, was far from parental restraint, and was rather
emotionally immature and a bit (big bit) insecure, so I started
drinking, doing very occasional drugs etc. Got myself a girlfriend and
lived with her for quite a while. During this time I also discovered the
occult. I think that I was just a spiritual searcher, and that's what I
found. I started doing tarot and meditation, got into all sorts of bad
sexual stuff, looked into Buddhism and hinduism, finally started
reading about witches and 'magic' etc. I even bumped into another nurse
working at the same hospital who described herself as a 'white witch' (I
don't know if she really was or not, but knowing a thing or two about
spiritual warfare, she probably was).
I became depressed, drank more heavily, started having paranoid
thoughts and aggressive episodes. By the time I was twenty-one, I was a
wreck, holding onto my job and my sanity by the skin of my teeth.
Another student nurse called Rachel, who was going out with one of
my mates, invited me to come along to her church and I, being
open-minded and loftily enlightened, condescended to go with her.
The week that followed was hellish. I suffered night-terrors, I
despised myself and everyone stupid enough to associate with me, and
ended up going off by myself with the intention of committing suicide.
I didn't, obviously.
In fact, somehow, Rachel got me back to the church. This was a
pattern for several weeks, and then one Sunday, the pastor made an altar
call, and without knowing how it happened (and I really do mean I have
absolutely NO conscious memory of making the decision), I found myself
standing up and responding to Jesus.
As a footnote, a couple of weeks later, when my life was getting
back on an even keel, I was riding my motorbike home from work, thinking
about Jesus and what He was doing, when I found myself giggling. Then I
started laughing, and eventually I was laughing so hard, I had to stop
and get off at the side of the road. I lay on the ground laughing
helplessly, with tears rolling down my face, rolling about and holding
my sides. This went on for about ten minutes and then gradually died
off. I didn't know what it was at the time, but I knew God was involved,
and I felt as though I had laughed a whole load of spiritual sickness
out of my body, because I felt clean. I now know that this was a baptism
in the spirit experience (and I don't really care if that sounds
unscriptural to some).

Here's my favourite joke about Christians:
Little Girl. "Mom, do all fairy tales begin with 'Once upon a time'?
Mom. "No dear, some begin with; 'When I became a Christian, all my
troubles where over!'
That about sums it up for me. Bless you chaps

andyredeemed wrote:Hi folks. I joined the message board a couple of days ago. This is my testimony:
I was brought up as a Catholic, although my parents where both rather
nominal, their only church attendance being Christmas and Easter. I was
christened, confirmed and all that, but didn't really have an
understanding of what I was meant to believe. By the time i was about
fourteen, I had 'invented' a kind of belief system that I could feel
comfortable with. It was a kind of pantheistic nature worship; very
imaginative !(it involved me evolving into a kind of godhood. I
later found out it wasn't a new idea).
At sixteen I got involved with a youth group run by the Catholic
Church called Genesis 2, which brought me into a more Christian
atmosphere, taught me a little bit about the bible and Jesus, and
generally helped me along through the latter part of adolescence.
Disaster struck when I was eighteen. Desperate to find work, I left
home in Scotland and moved to England where I got a job as a nurse. I
had some money, was far from parental restraint, and was rather
emotionally immature and a bit (big bit) insecure, so I started
drinking, doing very occasional drugs etc. Got myself a girlfriend and
lived with her for quite a while. During this time I also discovered the
occult. I think that I was just a spiritual searcher, and that's what I
found. I started doing tarot and meditation, got into all sorts of bad
sexual stuff, looked into Buddhism and hinduism, finally started
reading about witches and 'magic' etc. I even bumped into another nurse
working at the same hospital who described herself as a 'white witch' (I
don't know if she really was or not, but knowing a thing or two about
spiritual warfare, she probably was).
I became depressed, drank more heavily, started having paranoid
thoughts and aggressive episodes. By the time I was twenty-one, I was a
wreck, holding onto my job and my sanity by the skin of my teeth.
Another student nurse called Rachel, who was going out with one of
my mates, invited me to come along to her church and I, being
open-minded and loftily enlightened, condescended to go with her.
The week that followed was hellish. I suffered night-terrors, I
despised myself and everyone stupid enough to associate with me, and
ended up going off by myself with the intention of committing suicide.
I didn't, obviously.
In fact, somehow, Rachel got me back to the church. This was a
pattern for several weeks, and then one Sunday, the pastor made an altar
call, and without knowing how it happened (and I really do mean I have
absolutely NO conscious memory of making the decision), I found myself
standing up and responding to Jesus.
As a footnote, a couple of weeks later, when my life was getting
back on an even keel, I was riding my motorbike home from work, thinking
about Jesus and what He was doing, when I found myself giggling. Then I
started laughing, and eventually I was laughing so hard, I had to stop
and get off at the side of the road. I lay on the ground laughing
helplessly, with tears rolling down my face, rolling about and holding
my sides. This went on for about ten minutes and then gradually died
off. I didn't know what it was at the time, but I knew God was involved,
and I felt as though I had laughed a whole load of spiritual sickness
out of my body, because I felt clean. I now know that this was a baptism
in the spirit experience (and I don't really care if that sounds
unscriptural to some).

Here's my favourite joke about Christians:
Little Girl. "Mom, do all fairy tales begin with 'Once upon a time'?
Mom. "No dear, some begin with; 'When I became a Christian, all my
troubles where over!'
That about sums it up for me. Bless you chaps

Thanks for your testimony! Back in early 1982, I was a new Christian and went to church one day. Several people went to the front for prayer for various things at the end of the service. A friend and I were the last to be prayed for. At the end of the prayer we both starting laughing so hard and for the next 20 minutes we could not contain it while the service closed and people went home [note: this was in no way related to the so called laughing revival fad that came about ten years later]. Both of us felt a great cleansing and great sinful burden lift. We were both involved in similar venues as you once were. So I say your experience was from the Lord and the cleansing is real my friend!

Welcome!
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Thanks for sharing your story, Andy. Glad you are here.

I am extremely pleased that ths topic has survived as long as it has. Blessings to all who have shared their experiences over the past several years.
I can identify with the laughter, I spent the first six months after my conversion experiencing all sorts of intense emotions, it was as if an internal dam had broken. I would be working and suddenly would start crying for no apparent reason, I also experienced joy.

j316 wrote:I am extremely pleased that ths topic has survived as long as it has. Blessings to all who have shared their experiences over the past several years.
I can identify with the laughter, I spent the first six months after my conversion experiencing all sorts of intense emotions, it was as if an internal dam had broken. I would be working and suddenly would start crying for no apparent reason, I also experienced joy.

Isn't it amazing. I remember sharing the things of God with other Christians and, much to my embarrassment, suddenly feeling like I was going to break down crying. I say much to my embarrassment because real men don't cry. I'm being sardonic.

Sometimes I can't get through my favorite hymns and it is so frustrating beacuse I love singing them!!!

And can it Be!! is the toughest because there is this wonderful line about the chains falling off and walking free

Gives me shivers every time.

Okay my testimony isn't much...

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Okay when I was really young (a todler) and still thought stars were just yellow specks floating randomly in the sky, my dad, when we were outside, told me that stars in fact were huge masses of incandescent gas, and that our own sun was a star. Of course, it took a while for me to believe this, as I came up with the same old questions: 'Why is our sun bigger then?', How big and far away are they?' and of course the most difficult question: 'Who put them there?' My dad said if I was going to ask that question I might as well ask who put this Earth here, and who put all the galaxies here. I just asked 'What's a galaxy? Isn't that a chocolate bar?' When I was younger, I was always asking questions, so my dad thought it would be benficial for me to buy me a book of space. I loved it. I loved everything from memorising the names of the planets to finding out about stars and what makes them shine. I loved learning about gravity, asteroids, and what-not, but I couldn't shake off one question: Who designed them? Who made them? Who put them where they are? I aksed my dad these questions and he laughed and said that many people believe that God did it. 'Who's God?' I asked him. So he bought me another book. Yep, you guessed it. I loved this book even more than the space book. It was only a children's bible mind, but it contained all the well known stories. When I finished it, I wanted to decide whether or not I believed in God. I took another look at my space book, looking in awe at the pictures of all the beautiful galaxies and constallations in the sky. I thought to myself: 'This universe is a work of art. It's a masterpiece - someone had to have designed it! So I believed in God and started to go to Church. I was under my age of accountability, and I didn't really understand Jesus' sacrafice for us, but nonetheless I started praying daily and going to Church. Eventually my 'religion' fizzled out and I became an athiest/agnostic, then a deist. Fast forward to the age of fourteen and I'm cleaning out some of my old stuff. What do I find? The tattered remains of my old space book. I looked at the picture of the supernova (one of my favourite pitcures from when I was younger) and I was filled with the same sense of awe that I was filled with when I was a child. Hmm...

After that I did some research. Cue godandscience.org. I read through this site and only then did I realise what God's sacrafice meant. At this time I was under a lot of pressure from school etc. and was getting stressed. Nothing majour, but I needed to clear my head. So I asked God to enter my life and BAM! Cue the Holy Spirit. I was filled with a sense of peace that I had never felt before. All the stress went away, I never had to worry about the future anymore - why should I when God has promised to be with me for eternity? Also my grades for school shot upwards overnight. I went from a C in History to an A and from a D in English to an A! Everything in my life pretty much started going upwards from there, but I was still worried about one thing. Cue God and Science Discussion Forums. Now I'm pretty much fixed in my belief in God!

When I was younger I used to think that someone had put the stars where they are.
Now that I'm older and wiser I know that someone did.
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So that's my testimony. Nothing too epic, and I didn't turn to Christ because I was a drug addict, or because of being convinced by someone in person, or because of me catching a fatal disease: because of reading a space book...