Evidence for God from Science

What I think we should be focusing on is working together instead of just arguing non-existent points. But I am still new to the board, so that is just my humble opinion. Who writes this stuff? It's a joke. I'd be embarrassed and never post on the internet again if I were the author of that OP quote.

4) The gospels (especially Matthew 21:4 and John 12:14-15) claim that Jesus fulfills the prophecy of Zechariah 9:9. But the next few verses (Zechariah 9:10-13) show that the person referred to in this verse is a military king that would rule "from sea to sea". Since Jesus had neither an army nor a kingdom, he could not have fulfilled this prophecy.

Psalm 72.8 He will rule will from sea to sea and from the rivers to the ends of the earth.

Now check this out.

Psalm 78 O my people, hear my teaching; listen to the words of my mouth I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter hidden things,things from of old---

Mt 13.35 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying: "I will open My mouth in parables; I will utter things kept secret from the foundation of the world."

I could completely rip apart almost every declaration the author states in that OP with glee, but down the line, I just figured it wasn't worth the full effort. It is evident and clear that Jesus and the OT Yahwheh are in formal agreement. I don't think one chooses one's faith in a spiritual sense, but rather God predetermines one's faith instead of selecting by preference.

Also how can Jesus be God:

Numbers 23:19 "God is not a man, that He should lie, nor a son of man, that He should repent."

? He committed no sin, no deceit was found in his mouth.

Hosea 11:9 "For I am God, and not man"

Hosea seems to be prophesying God's thoughts on mankind.

Psalm 146:3 "Do not put your trust in princes, nor in a son of man, in whom there is no help."

"Princes","son of man" implies warning not to forsake God's teaching for those of mere men.

Malachi 3:6 "For I am the Lord, I do not change"

That Scripture stands alone by itself, there is nothing to argue with about that particular Scripture. It is very similar in tone and power in this verse.

Eziekel? All who live in Egypt will know that I am the Lord.

God is pretty straightforward and to the point, especially in Eziekel...I still can't fathom how ridiculous and erroneous these declarations are.God cannot be mocked, we reap what we sow according to Him.

Daniel 7:13 In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

The son of man eh? Descending from the clouds eh? Sounds a lot like Jesus Christ.

We have already refuted the idea that Isaiah 53 is talking about israel(without a counter rebuttal from you). you'd be wise not to bring it up again.

We have already refuted the idea that Isaiah 53 is talking about israel(without a counter rebuttal from you). you'd be wise not to bring it up again.

Nope all christians have shown is that they can't read and they work hard to stretch scripture to fit Jesus. Isaiah 49:3 already tells us who the servant is. You constantly say the Jews twist their own scripture when mainstream Judaism has held that chapter to mean Israel since time of Jesus. Anyhow, i'd be glad to address your claimed proof that Isaiah 53 isn't about Israel, however I fail to see what it is.

Vvart;....Do you believe in the Messiah?

vvart wrote:

We have already refuted the idea that Isaiah 53 is talking about israel(without a counter rebuttal from you). you'd be wise not to bring it up again.

Nope all christians have shown is that they can't read and they work hard to stretch scripture to fit Jesus. Isaiah 49:3 already tells us who the servant is. You constantly say the Jews twist their own scripture when mainstream Judaism has held that chapter to mean Israel since time of Jesus. Anyhow, i'd be glad to address your claimed proof that Isaiah 53 isn't about Israel, however I fail to see what it is.

isaiah 53

4: Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted.
6: All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Again, who suffers for israel? Does Bizarro world israel suffer for our israel? It makes absolutely no sense for the people of israel to refer to israel in the third person when talking about this. It is clear from the contex that somebody will suffer for Israel's sins. You mentioned Isaiah 49

3: And he said to me, "You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified."

Yes, but let us look only a bit later.

5: And now the LORD says, who formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob back to him, and that Israel might be gathered to him, for I am honored in the eyes of the LORD, and my God has become my strength


We see here that the author refers himself as the servant and israel a third party? What does this mean? It means that Israel DOES NOT have exclusivity to being called servant(such a suggestion was ridiculous to begin with anyway). When looked upon isaiah 53 in context, we realise that somebody will suffer for israel, and that it cannot be israel as somebody is speaking FOR israel! In israel 52 again, it makes it crystal clear it is referring to a MAN:

14: As many were astonished at him -- his appearance was so marred, beyond human semblance, and his form beyond that of the sons of men --

Sounds like it makes sense to me MM; nice job.

Ok thanks for posting that. Now lets study this carefully:

isaiah 53

4: Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted.
6: All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Ok in Isaiah 53:4 is describing the servant become afflicted or become diseased, which something that didn't happen to Jesus. Next in Isaiah 53:6, its referring to the jews as the people gone astray. Can't be about gentiles as gentiles can't go astray from a path they never even encountered. Not to mention this is a period in history that was tough for the Jews so Isaiah here is giving them hope in spite of the suffering.

Again, who suffers for israel? Does Bizarro world israel suffer for our israel? It makes absolutely no sense for the people of israel to refer to israel in the third person when talking about this. It is clear from the contex that somebody will suffer for Israel's sins.

No, the (Nation of Israel) suffers for the (people of Israel).

3: And he said to me, "You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified."

Yes, but let us look only a bit later.

5: And now the LORD says, who formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob back to him, and that Israel might be gathered to him, for I am honored in the eyes of the LORD, and my God has become my strength

About verse four, that would be Isaiah expressing the feelings of the nation of Israel through prophecy, rather than Israel the nation speaking as if it were a man with a mouth. Also Israel as a nation was formed from the womb. All Israelites are descendents of Israel, who was formed in the womb. The very nation itself was indeed formed in a very real womb. The one who is the subject of Isaiah 53 however is definitively revealed in Isaiah 52:1. Isaiah there gives a large speech about Zion, aka Nation of Israel and sets the stage for everything else.

What's more is that Jesus fits with virtually nothing.
"he will see his offspring and prolong his days,"
How can Jesus who christians claim is everlasting have longer days.

53:12 "Therefore, I will divide a portion to him with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the mighty." If Jesus is God, does the idea of reward have any meaning?

14: "As many were astonished at him -- his appearance was so marred, beyond human semblance, and his form beyond that of the sons of men"

Even on the cross Jesus was recognized not only as human, but by name. Again I don't see this applicable with him once again.


"He shall not fail nor be crushed till he has set the right in the earth" (Isa. 42:4).

Why don't we actually listen to what Isaiah says here in reference to the messiah.

Finally its pretty clear, especially since its not 'FOR our transgressions' its 'FROM our transgressions' that the subject is the Nation of Israel.

Ok in Isaiah 53:4 is describing the servant become afflicted or become diseased, which something that didn't happen to Jesus.

I'm fairly certain we discussed this already, so I'm just gonna paste something off some web site, as i largely agree with this interpretation.

"How then do we explain Isaiah 53:3, which states that the servant of the Lord was "a man of suffering and acquainted with infirmity" (NRSV)? There is actually some ambiguity in the Hebrew text, since: (1) The nouns 'mak'ob' and 'holi' can refer to either physical or metaphorical pain and sickness (see, e.g., Exod. 3:7 for 'mak'ob and Eccles. 6:2 for 'holi'). (2) The Hebrew does not say that the servant of the Lord was sick and in pain but rather that he was 'a man of pains' and 'intimate with sickness/suffering.' This describes Jesus quite accurately: He was often in anguish and pain because of the depth of human suffering (and human sinfulness), sometimes sighing or groaning under the burden of it all, at other times being moved to tears (see, e.g., Mark 7:31-34; John 11:32-36). Truly, he was a man of sorrows and pains, intimately involved with sick and afflicted people. (3) The Stone edition renders Isaiah 53:4b as, 'but we had regarded him diseased ['nagu'a'], stricken by God, and afflicted!' It is this verse--in particular the word 'nagua'a' (rendered here as 'diseased')--from which the Talmud drew the concept of the 'leper Messiah' (see b. Sanhedrin 98b). 'Nagu'a', however, can simply mean 'smitten,' with no reference to leprosy or sickness, as can be seen from the use of the word in Psalm 73:14, where it speaks of the psalmist's spiritual chastisements."[Brown (2): 73]

Next in Isaiah 53:6, its referring to the jews as the people gone astray. Can't be about gentiles as gentiles can't go astray from a path they never even encountered. Not to mention this is a period in history that was tough for the Jews so Isaiah here is giving them hope in spite of the suffering.

Yes it does say the jews have gone astray. now read the second half of the verse.

6: All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

It is clearly talking about somebody else suffering for them going astray.

Again, who suffers for israel? Does Bizarro world israel suffer for our israel? It makes absolutely no sense for the people of israel to refer to israel in the third person when talking about this. It is clear from the contex that somebody will suffer for Israel's sins.

That's not what the text states. It clearly shows somebody else is suffering for them, otherwise it simply doesn't make sense.

About verse four, that would be Isaiah expressing the feelings of the nation of Israel through prophecy, rather than Israel the nation speaking as if it were a man with a mouth. Also Israel as a nation was formed from the womb. All Israelites are descendents of Israel, who was formed in the womb. The very nation itself was indeed formed in a very real womb. The one who is the subject of Isaiah 53 however is definitively revealed in Isaiah 52:1. Isaiah there gives a large speech about Zion, aka Nation of Israel and sets the stage for everything else.

In other words, you're making crap up(something you're accusing us of doing) to make Israel fit. Lovely.

What's more is that Jesus fits with virtually nothing.
"he will see his offspring and prolong his days,"
How can Jesus who christians claim is everlasting have longer days.

It could be referring to Jesus as man. We don't know how long he was supposed to live so you can't really say God didn't "prolong his days", nor does "prolonge his days" exclude prolonging them to infinity(although my interpretation does not require this latterpoint). And just so you know, not all Christians agree on what exactly Jesus was.

53:12 "Therefore, I will divide a portion to him with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the mighty." If Jesus is God, does the idea of reward have any meaning?

You are arguing against Jesus's divinity, not whether he fulfills the prophecy and thus I do not feel obliged to answer. Stick to the topic.

Even on the cross Jesus was recognized not only as human, but by name. Again I don't see this applicable with him once again.

Duh, what the hell do you think? They beat Jesus to a bloody pulp and because he was so wounded, they forgot it was him? What kind of messed up logic is this?

"He shall not fail nor be crushed till he has set the right in the earth" (Isa. 42:4).

Why don't we actually listen to what Isaiah says here in reference to the messiah.

Finally its pretty clear, especially since its not 'FOR our transgressions' its 'FROM our transgressions' that the subject is the Nation of Israel.

I don't see what isaiah 42 has to do with 53(which was our topic), nor do I see what problem it poses. Here are a few more verses to chew on:

8: By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people?

When did israel die? And why is israel made sound like a third party again? Do God and the author talk like Bob from Becker? "Bob shall be stricken for my transgressions". Please.

9: And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death,

When did israel die? Was it bizarro world israel again?

12: Therefore I will divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he poured out his soul to death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Again, israel never died. Maybe bizarro world israel did, who knows.

I find it silly that you'd even debate isaiah 53 as not being about the messiah since it is clear from the context that it is not israel who is suffering.

YUP!!! Agreed I wish there was an Icon for a THUMBS UP

You are arguing against Jesus's divinity, not whether he fulfills the prophecy and thus I do not feel obliged to answer. Stick to the topic.

The topic is that Jesus wasn't the messiah or God, so I am sticking with the topic. Frankly, I have no problem with people who think Jesus was just the messiah. I mean i'll disagree with them, but its no big deal. The problem comes when people view Jesus as God and become no better than the Egyptions or the Romans or any pagan people for that matter.

The problem comes when people view Jesus as God and become no better than the Egyptions or the Romans or any pagan people for that matter.

Nobody else had God come into the physical world in a material form in a specific point and place in time...

vvart wrote:

You are arguing against Jesus's divinity, not whether he fulfills the prophecy and thus I do not feel obliged to answer. Stick to the topic.

The topic is that Jesus wasn't the messiah or God, so I am sticking with the topic. Frankly, I have no problem with people who think Jesus was just the messiah. I mean i'll disagree with them, but its no big deal. The problem comes when people view Jesus as God and become no better than the Egyptions or the Romans or any pagan people for that matter.

It wouldn't be the first time God becomes incarnate. I really don't see what the problem with this would be.