Evidence for God from Science

No, I have no proof of it being a figure of speech. I pulled that one out of you know where, but it made sense to me. I have attempted to prove my case aside from that assumption, but I threw that in there to... oh, who cares. I don't believe we're getting anywhere arguing that we've all conclusively proven our points. We've said what we've wanted to say, let's stop trying to pull teeth, (figure of speech, you know! ) I think I'm done.

kateliz:

the articles i posted mentioned it being a figure of speech. but, no ones read them...i know.

But we have to interpret the Bible carefully, so if there's no evidence for it being a figure of speech, we should not assume it so if we're using it as real evidence.

But I still have yet to, (I know I said I'm done but...) see proof that an actual rod was meant by the biblical word "rod" in those verses. That, my friends, is also an assumption we cannot make.

no evidence for there is no evidence for it being a figure of speech...

umm, there is. THERE IS...i can't talk about this anymore. read the articles. don't read them. i really don't care.

kateliz wrote: But I still have yet to, (I know I said I'm done but...) see proof that an actual rod was meant by the biblical word "rod" in those verses. That, my friends, is also an assumption we cannot make.

Think what you will, but I stand by what the majority of citizens, ministers, and physicians have commented about spanking.

You stand by those people, and I'll stand by God's Word. (Not trying to antagonize here, just pointing out you rely way, way too much on the opinions of others.)

kateliz wrote:You stand by those people, and I'll stand by God's Word. (Not trying to antagonize here, just pointing out you rely way, way too much on the opinions of others.)

What I posted was God's Word on spanking.

kateliz wrote: You do not need to cause physical pain in order to discipline. You should use, when applicable, natural consequence kinds of things. If they don't want to eat what you made for them, they go hungry. If they run across the street without looking or when they shouldn't have have, scare them by telling them just what could happen to them if a car hit them: they'd be hit *smack* (loudly clap your hands) and either flung several feet, falling hard, (the more details you include in this the better,) or rolled over by the car's tires. Explain the possible broken bones, the opened skin, comas, and anything else like that. Tell them the truth, and they'll get the picture.

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Kateliz, Unfortunately I have to respectfully disagree. My neighbor (when I was pregnant ) had a delightful 5 yr old boy who decided that he didnt want to take his shoes off before going inside his house. His parents wouldnt let him in until the shoes came off. So he stood in our balcony area (we were in upstairs apartments) and screamed his head off at 7 in the morning. While his parents were trying to promote the "no-spanking" they didnt bother to remember that they should have also taught him to be respectful of others. I walked out of my door, told him to take his shoes off and get in his house and stop being mean to his mom. Then I talked to his mom later and told her that I didnt appreciate being woken at 7am when I work swing shift and that I would remove his shoes for him the next time he was screaming at the top of his lungs right outside my door. (I think she later used the tactic of "the mean lady next door will get you if you dont be quiet")
I dont have to spank my children now but when they were in diapers, the sound usually scares the child because they actually dont feel it through the padding of the diaper. Generally it was because they had gotten away from me while I had groceries or something and they decided to dart out into the parking lot where there were cars. I wont say that they are angels, but I am always told that my children are well behaved and very polite. Maybe when they are older you reason with them, but when they are little a swat on the behind doesnt hurt them.

Becky, I would never support kids disturbing their neighbors in such a way. If they were to do that, (if I decided to not let them in as that mom did,) then I'd have to deal with the situation from there like by taking them inside, telling them what they did wrong and why, and then ground them from something or put them in a quiet time-out. Maybe if they cannot take their shoes off you make them sit just inside the door until they do, or make them stay inside for a day so they don't have the opportunity to disobey in that way again. There are more options then letting them scream outside in the early morning.

A five year-old is plenty old enough to understand what he's doing is completely unacceptable and that he deserves a punishment. A swat on the butt for him I believe would be an inadequate response. Swatting a diapered kid would be, in my eyes, less upsetting, (depending on the parent's disposition, the child's age, and how hard the swat was,) but I still say there are other ways that should be used instead.

I applaude you on the compliments you've received about your children, but I still think there are other and more acceptable ways than spanking.

ochotseat wrote:

Prodigal Son wrote: that was hilarious.

but, unlike ocho, i don't think spanking is okay under any circumstances. it's disrespectful, humiliating, hurtful, and immature. it teaches children that they are worthless, unimportant, not worthy of respect, and unable to control their own actions. any parent who hits a child is a coward. if you wouldn't hit an adult for the same action, why are you going to hit a child? it shows a lack of communication skills, ignorance, impatience, and a load of other negative character flaws.

hmm, wwjd...i can definately see him smacking a little kid...yep.

Spanking, if done humanely and right, is perfectly acceptable. It helps cut down on juvenile delinquents, or do you not care about that at all?
Obviously, spanking won't prevent every juvenile delinquent, since some people are just naturally bad and desperate. But cutting down on crime is always a good thing.

"Spanking, if done humanely and right, is perfectly acceptable"

it is? then why is it illegal in many countries, like my own?

"It helps cut down on juvenile delinquents"

no, no, no, no, no... statistics show that a most criminals were abused
as children. you simply state something and don´t back it up with facts. search the internet, they can´t be hard to find.

who in his or her right mind would want to slap their own child? that´s brutal and sick.. nice morals..

sweden78 wrote:

ochotseat wrote:

Prodigal Son wrote: that was hilarious.

but, unlike ocho, i don't think spanking is okay under any circumstances. it's disrespectful, humiliating, hurtful, and immature. it teaches children that they are worthless, unimportant, not worthy of respect, and unable to control their own actions. any parent who hits a child is a coward. if you wouldn't hit an adult for the same action, why are you going to hit a child? it shows a lack of communication skills, ignorance, impatience, and a load of other negative character flaws.

hmm, wwjd...i can definately see him smacking a little kid...yep.

Spanking, if done humanely and right, is perfectly acceptable. It helps cut down on juvenile delinquents, or do you not care about that at all?
Obviously, spanking won't prevent every juvenile delinquent, since some people are just naturally bad and desperate. But cutting down on crime is always a good thing.

"Spanking, if done humanely and right, is perfectly acceptable"

it is? then why is it illegal in many countries, like my own?

"It helps cut down on juvenile delinquents"

no, no, no, no, no... statistics show that a most criminals were abused
as children. you simply state something and don´t back it up with facts. search the internet, they can´t be hard to find.

who in his or her right mind would want to slap their own child? that´s brutal and sick.. nice morals..

I believe there is also a Difference between the Abuse that you are talking about and the spanking of a Child. But there are always other ways to teach a child to behave. However Growing up for me and getting a Spanking got the point across nicely

I know you have all been dying to here my take on this. LOL. I always get a kick out of this issue. You can usually tell the kids and parents that don't believe in spanking because they are the ones that are throwing a fit in the stores and such. I never automatically resort to spanking my child for his errors, but he knows that it could happen. I love my son and I would much rather that he be obedient and learn to use his own mind to do the right thing, but I will correct him by a spanking if I feel that is in his best interest.

As you have all pointed out the Bible does say, my version, "Kids are foolish and they need to be corrected". Or in the more popular, "Spare the Rod spoil the child". I have seen parents that are aginst spanking because they say it teaches kids about violence. Yet the most violent spoiled kids are the ones that grow in their own foolishness and do as they please. I have witnessed this whole mindset of idle threats and inconsistent discipline. I have seen parents that don't put in the effort to apply that rod and it isn't pretty.

Guess what my child doesn't always obey me, and when he doesn't he gets a couple of chances to control himself and then he gets a whack on the butt. And it sometimes still doesn't work, so he gets a couple more chances and another whack on the bum. IT is not easy to drive foolishness from them, but you can see the foolish ones and the well-behaved ones.

Why do we have to over this again? Where's the logic, people? With this, I mean:

Jbuza wrote:I have witnessed this whole mindset of idle threats and inconsistent discipline. I have seen parents that don't put in the effort to apply that rod and it isn't pretty.

Spanking is not the only effective way to discipline, (if you believe it is effective,) and to think so proves lack of reasoning and creativity. Idle threats and inconsistant disciplining has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not spanking is used. A parent who uses spanking as a disciplinary measure can do those same things just as easily.

I am upset that this illogical opinion keeps rearing it's ugly, lying head here! I think I need a silver bullet or something!

kateliz wrote:Why do we have to over this again? Where's the logic, people? With this, I mean:

Jbuza wrote:I have witnessed this whole mindset of idle threats and inconsistent discipline. I have seen parents that don't put in the effort to apply that rod and it isn't pretty.

Hey there whoaaa . . . Hold On. Who is advocating that spanking is the only reasonable discipline? Not me. You qhote me and call me illogical, assuming my position from a couple paragraphs. Do you automatically do this to all people of different opinions.

I mean come on did you even read my post and think about it, or just find the snippet you could use to belittle me because I will enfore discipline on my son through physical punishment.

Jbuza wrote: I never automatically resort to spanking my child for his errors, but he knows that it could happen. I love my son and I would much rather that he be obedient and learn to use his own mind to do the right thing, but I will correct him by a spanking if I feel that is in his best interest.

kateliz wrote:Spanking is not the only effective way to discipline, (if you believe it is effective,) and to think so proves lack of reasoning and creativity. Idle threats and inconsistant disciplining has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not spanking is used. A parent who uses spanking as a disciplinary measure can do those same things just as easily. I am upset that this illogical opinion keeps rearing it's ugly, lying head here! I think I need a silver bullet or something!

I would suggest than that you don't bring this back up. I will skip the insulting rebuttal to this, but say that I see more Idle threats and inconsistent discipline among those who I see that don't use spanking, I don't expect logic to arise from this type of discipline, do you? I have seen the yelling, pleading, bribing, mixed with an occasional kick in the butt, and this family uses corporal punishment. This family uses several different things for ultimate punishment including: Yell, Take away something valued, send to room, kick in Butt, GIVE IN.


What is your ultimate punishment that you use?

Again I will thank you for not assuming my position on this matter.

I continue to think about this. I have decided that I don't like the title for this forum. Reason v. Spanking. IT presupposes that spanking is without reason, and that is not accurate.

I have been thinking that punishment of children ought to follow how the Heavenly Father disciplines. Wasn't it God who gave paul a thorn in his flesh (physical pain) fro his disobedience? Wasn't it God who punished Sodom and Gomorrah with fire from heaven.

Zepaniah 3:6. "I have cut off nations, Their fortresses are devastated; I have made their streets desolate, With none passing by. Their cities are destroyed; There is no one, no inhabitant. 7. I said, 'Surely you will fear Me, You will receive instruction' -- So that her dwelling would not be cut off, Despite everything for which I punished her. But they rose early and corrupted all their deeds.

IT doesn't sound like God is into this mamby pamby feel good attitude, shouldn't we bring up our children in the nurture and admonishon of the LORD? This is the same God who said he would destroy Ninevah, yet their repentance and obedience made God withhold his Rod of Correction.

I think that the Bible is clear on this issue. But some have their own agends and don't truly interpret, but try to interpret things to fit their own ideas. There is a way that seemeth right . . . Having an attitude that says this is how I feel, so I will explain scripture this way isn't good. If on esimply goes to scripture to try and determine what their attitude should be they may come to a different conclusion.

Acts 5

1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession, 2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet. 3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? 4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. 5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.