Evidence for God from Science

RickD wrote:

crochet1949 wrote:A persons' Life Will show his salvation or lack there of. But THAT does Not equate to a Work's based salvation.

How Does a person's life show he's saved or not saved?

Our actions reflect what's going on inside. Everyone has 'stuff' they struggle with / everyone Needs Christian friends to give us encouragement.

Where we go or what we do to handle the stuff that life throws our way, reflects what's Inside of us.

Philip wrote:
Or, is the question not ALSO, if a person is a Christian, are their works ALWAYS apparent and detectable? Sometimes, we might not know any more than THEY might say - or DON'T say.

Crochet: As a believer -- there Should be a difference between 'us' and the 'rest of the world' -- we're not Supposed to be like the 'rest of the world'. Isn't God's Word Supposed to be making a Positive difference in our lives? And our actions are going to be speaking Louder than our words.

We see people all the time that are unsaved, that we KNOW are not believers - or that perhaps are of some religion - that nonetheless often display more outward signs of being pleasant and caring about people, and being "good" people than some of those Believers at church we might find rather troubling or difficult. So, does that show that we can always know, per ACTIONS, as to what is actually in the heart? This is particularly possible with new believers, or perhaps ones that have never been to church. They just don't - or don't know how - to talk about it. And so, that is our difficulty, is it not - because what changes is the HEART and mind, things we can't perfectly know. And so that is the danger. It's also a danger because, just as non-Christians can be quite nice to know and are helpful, cheerful, etc., we know that some claiming Christianity are merely cultural Christians, or "playing church," but that they aren't committed/haven't submitted in faith to Christ. So, with such people, we can't just go upon what they SAY. Both the mere cultural "Christian" and the churchy "Christian" can show similar behaviors and actions, and so while they might APPEAR to authentically be Christians, they are not. So, this shows that just because there IS a changed mind and heart INSIDE of a person, we can't always perfectly determine the truth of that - EITHER way. But if a person has faith, we know that they DO have a changed heart and mind - even if we aren't sure about that.

But, despite the above, we CAN and should have our suspicions as to the reality of what a particular person might believe, or not believe. And we should helpfully respond to those we SUSPECT are not Christians, AS IF they truly are not - per our witnessing and influence.

Are some of those people part of a 'good works' ideology. Doing all those good things are Surely going to earn them a place in heaven. And- a Lot of people Are naturally good, nice, helpful people. Their thought Might be that only the Bad people really Need to be 'saved'. And, What are our churches teaching. There Used to be 'testimony times' in churches. People would share - with thankful hearts -- how God had saved them and opportunities they'd been given to share Scripture with someone. AND with higher education touting evolutionary thought and 'you Really believe the Bible'? How naïve of you. It's all a bunch of fairy tales. ---- is it any wonder that people are a bit reluctant to share all that much. AND -- after a person Has accepted Jesus Christ as personal Savior -- how many of these people are discipled -- maybe a deacon and wife meet with the new believer for a while -- weeks or months to make Sure they are getting grounded in Scripture.
The concept of Tolerance of actions is So in our churches. We are NOT to be judging people -- but it's kind of a natural thing to observe people -- we engage in conversation -- interact with them at athletic events. What are people seeing in Our lives.
Do we Really know what guidelines God has given us?
And IF we are hesitant to share what God has done for us amongst our Church friends -- HOW are we ever going to be able to share with neighbors , co-workers.
And, yes, it Is easy to 'play church' -- go through the motion of worship. Having said that -- some people are very conservative worshippers and some are more emotional -- some are quick with an Amen and others are so quiet you'd hardly know they are alive. But - at least 'they' are There with other worshippers -- hearing God's Word being taught.

crochet1949 wrote:

RickD wrote:

crochet1949 wrote:A persons' Life Will show his salvation or lack there of. But THAT does Not equate to a Work's based salvation.

How Does a person's life show he's saved or not saved?

Our actions reflect what's going on inside. Everyone has 'stuff' they struggle with / everyone Needs Christian friends to give us encouragement.

Where we go or what we do to handle the stuff that life throws our way, reflects what's Inside of us.

If this is true, then I am 100% confident I am going to Hell. Maybe you're a better person. I am not being in the least bit snarky or sarcastic. Just very honest.

Jac3510 wrote:

crochet1949 wrote:

RickD wrote:

crochet1949 wrote:A persons' Life Will show his salvation or lack there of. But THAT does Not equate to a Work's based salvation.

How Does a person's life show he's saved or not saved?

Our actions reflect what's going on inside. Everyone has 'stuff' they struggle with / everyone Needs Christian friends to give us encouragement.

Where we go or what we do to handle the stuff that life throws our way, reflects what's Inside of us.

If this is true, then I am 100% confident I am going to Hell. Maybe you're a better person. I am not being in the least bit snarky or sarcastic. Just very honest.

Do you Want to end up in hell? You don't Have to. No reason you Need to.

Where we go or what we do to handle the stuff that life throws our way, reflects what's Inside of us.

So, one runs from Jesus. Swears and denies they even know the fellow. Do it publicly while hanging around other unbelievers. Do it a couple of more times just to be sure people get the message of what you're not. Definitely such a person couldn't possible be saved, right... RIGHT??? (Matthew 16!).

Philip wrote:

Where we go or what we do to handle the stuff that life throws our way, reflects what's Inside of us.

So, one runs from Jesus. Swears and denies they even know the fellow. Do it publicly while hanging around other unbelievers. Do it a couple of more times just to be sure people get the message of what you're not. Definitely such a person couldn't possible be saved, right... RIGHT??? (Matthew 16!).

Of course not! At least, according to the fruit inspectors, who need to see works to show someone is saved.

So - it's Okay to run around and use all the salty language we want and do most anything negative and hang around with those who do. And Christian brethren are supposed to just let us act like 'whatever' and Not show concern cause, after all, we're just having a bad day, week, month. And THAT kind of behavior is going to show other's how Wonderful the Christian life is.

Nope -- our lives Should be showing a Positive difference -- cause, yes, there Are 'fruit inspectors' hovering. Maybe we DO need to take a closer look at the 'stem' of the fruit tree. What are we putting into our 'stem' as a fruit tree?

Maybe we Don't take eternity very seriously. Sometimes our Lives are the 1st "Bible" that a person is going to 'read' -- what are they 'reading'.

crochet1949 wrote:So - it's Okay to run around and use all the salty language we want and do most anything negative and hang around with those who do. And Christian brethren are supposed to just let us act like 'whatever' and Not show concern cause, after all, we're just having a bad day, week, month. And THAT kind of behavior is going to show other's how Wonderful the Christian life is.

Nope -- our lives Should be showing a Positive difference -- cause, yes, there Are 'fruit inspectors' hovering. Maybe we DO need to take a closer look at the 'stem' of the fruit tree. What are we putting into our 'stem' as a fruit tree?

Maybe we Don't take eternity very seriously. Sometimes our Lives are the 1st "Bible" that a person is going to 'read' -- what are they 'reading'.

Mrs. Crochet,

Nobody is saying is ok to sin. Why do people think that those who believe in osas, think osas is a license to sin?
I just don't understand.

crochet1949 wrote:Do you Want to end up in hell? You don't Have to. No reason you Need to.

Of course not. And more to the point, I don't think I am going to Hell. And even more still to the point, I am 100% persuaded I am going to heaven. If it isn't obvious, then, my point is that your statement, as stated anyway, is 100% incorrect. And if it is true--and it is not--then I am going to Hell. In fact, if your statement is true, then I am 100% certain that every single person who posts on this board and who has ever posted on this board, and 100% of every person who has never posted on this board, is also going to hell. And if what you are saying is true and yet people do not think they are going to hell, it is only because they are self-deluded, self-righteous, or some combination of both

RickD -- I'm a firm believer in OSAS -- and I don't know. Because it's Not a license to sin. Every believer is accountable to God for every word / action after they have accept Jesus Christ as personal Savior. We Will answer to HIM.

I'm Very glad that God is Greater -- the Greatest. Forgiver of sins and that the Holy Spirit Does secure our soul.

And we all probably have our 'pet sin'. I struggle with mine. And I know 'its' a sin Because I struggle with it. A person's thought life is secret to everyone Except God.

Jac3510 wrote:

crochet1949 wrote:Do you Want to end up in hell? You don't Have to. No reason you Need to.

Of course not. And more to the point, I don't think I am going to Hell. And even more still to the point, I am 100% persuaded I am going to heaven. If it isn't obvious, then, my point is that your statement, as stated anyway, is 100% incorrect. And if it is true--and it is not--then I am going to Hell. In fact, if your statement is true, then I am 100% certain that every single person who posts on this board and who has ever posted on this board, and 100% of every person who has never posted on this board, is also going to hell. And if what you are saying is true and yet people do not think they are going to hell, it is only because they are self-deluded, self-righteous, or some combination of both

Your comment puzzles me. On what basis do you say that.

Because if our actions indicate what's on the inside, as you put it, and if, following your logic, what's "on the inside" is with respect to our salvation, then the actions of every single one of us demonstrate absolutely and without exception that what is on the inside of all of us is complete and utter damnation. That's even more true of the one who looks at themselves and says, "Ya know, I may not be perfect, but my actions at least show that I'm really saved." Such people simply do not see the very, very deep pride and hubris in that statement. But it's undeniable, and such arrogance, on that logic, indicates what's "on the inside" and would thus indicate a lack of salvation. Cf Luke 18:11

Look, I get what you are trying to say, and I get your intentions. I'm not at all besmirching any of that. You take sin very seriously and the call to discipleship seriously. You take very seriously the fact that believers are indwelt by the Holy Spirit and His ministry in our lives. You take seriously the fact that we ought to submit ourselves as a living sacrifice and so on. But understanding the motivation and the attempt to deal with very real and serious facts doesn't negate error or the logically necessary conclusions we have to draw given some position we've taken. And that's what is happening here.

So, again, I say with all sincerity: if what you say is true, then all of us--me included--are going to Hell. Thankfully, I'm not going to Hell, and that's because what you have sincerely and with wonderful intentions have said is simply incorrect.

Jac3510 wrote:Because if our actions indicate what's on the inside, as you put it, and if, following your logic, what's "on the inside" is with respect to our salvation, then the actions of every single one of us demonstrate absolutely and without exception that what is on the inside of all of us is complete and utter damnation. That's even more true of the one who looks at themselves and says, "Ya know, I may not be perfect, but my actions at least show that I'm really saved." Such people simply do not see the very, very deep pride and hubris in that statement. But it's undeniable, and such arrogance, on that logic, indicates what's "on the inside" and would thus indicate a lack of salvation. Cf Luke 18:11

Look, I get what you are trying to say, and I get your intentions. I'm not at all besmirching any of that. You take sin very seriously and the call to discipleship seriously. You take very seriously the fact that believers are indwelt by the Holy Spirit and His ministry in our lives. You take seriously the fact that we ought to submit ourselves as a living sacrifice and so on. But understanding the motivation and the attempt to deal with very real and serious facts doesn't negate error or the logically necessary conclusions we have to draw given some position we've taken. And that's what is happening here.

So, again, I say with all sincerity: if what you say is true, then all of us--me included--are going to Hell. Thankfully, I'm not going to Hell, and that's because what you have sincerely and with wonderful intentions have said is simply incorrect.

The way we are All born is as sinners-- "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." And "There is none righteous, no not one." And "all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags."

The passage in Luke 18 ''the Pharisee stood and prayed about himself." How Good he was compared to every one else. And the tax collector stood at a distance -- he wouldn't even lift his head to heaven -- but prayed "God, have mercy on me, a sinner."

That which I'm talking about are Sinners who are Saved By Grace. "The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." We come to God through Jesus Christ with a humble, contrite heart. Acknowledging that we are totally dependent on what Jesus Christ did on the cross for 'me'. And Then we Can say that Through Jesus Christ / the indwelling Holy Spirit we Should be living a Christ-like life.

You can dress up the claim that we have to be good to go to heaven in whatever theological and scriptural language you like. If behavior is involved, we are all damned.