Evidence for God from Science

bippy123 wrote:

Seraph, I do know the 88 c14 tests very well and so do most of the posters here. The 88 c14 tests were invalidated a long time ago by Agnostic Chemist Ray Rogers , senior fellow at los alamos labs, one of the ebst chemists in the country, and a man who stated he doesnt believe in miracles that defy the laws of nature.
This is his peer reviewed chemical analysis paper accepted in the european chemical journal Thermochimica acta http://www.shroud.it/ROGERS-3.PDF

The weaving technique was also done in those times as well. Do you really need us to debunk this claim as well. Rebecca jackson, former orthodox Jew and an expert in ancient jewish burial customs confirmed thsi as well as others. Its a 3 way herrinbone weave which means it was an expensive weave at that time, which corresponds perfectly with his burial being provided by a rich man (this was even predicted 100's of years before in the messianic prophecies).

The image wasnt airbrushed in any way. Sturp determined with their scientific testing that there were no added substances on the burial cloth, but some chemical change caused by some momentous event that changed the burial cloth chemically. There is Xay information in the areas of the hands, wrist, left femur, Jaw, teeth, Gums and head. Maybe a 1st century scientist got out his handy xray machine and started taking xrays of Jesus's Body . Anything is possible right seraph?

What scientific consensus could you possibly be talking about Seraph? Most scientists who have studied the shroud know the evidence is extremely strong for its authenticity, but how about you study the shroud for yourself if you believe you can debunk it? Or maybe seraph the problem is that you know deep down inside that you cant debunk it

Seraph, most of us here have researched teh shroud for at least a few years (im going on 5+) and the reason why most are confident about its authenticty is because we have looke dthrough the research and the peer reviewed papers written about it.

I told you beforehand that you didnt know what you were getting yourself into. Many pro Shroud scientists were originally skeptics about the shroud and it was only through very meticulous study that they had changed their minds. A real seeker armed with even a bread crumb of evidence would not be able to put the shroud down. I suspect Ken is starting to get intrigued by it, but it seems to me that you dont even want to start digging deep into it. Maybe the problem isnt the evidences for the shroud or the biases for or against it, maybe the problem is within you. Maybe its something that needs to be hased out between you and God?

Talk about unjustified self affirmation. Is it so difficult for you to see that one can remain objective and come to an alternate conclusion? Read through this thread, you will find a ton of very intelligent Christians who remain very skeptical of the authenticity of this object, such as canuckster. All of your sources claiming to support it's authenticity are from sites dedicated to proving its authenticity, which makes me very suspicious of data cherry-picking taking place. Do a simple google search of something like "authenticity of the shorud of turin" and the evidence that comes up is not very one sided in favor of it. No, surely the problem lies with me and some underlying motivation I have right? Is that your method of establishing credibility, resorting to ad hominem?

Look over that long list I constructed in the Deism thread of theological and scientific qualms I have had with Christianity as of late, you think some piece of cloth is going to tip the scales and satisfy my urge for truth regarding those? How about you try tackling some of that instead of going "clearly you have issues with God, its best I don't engage further"? Why is it so difficult to believe that a clear minded person trying to be objective and persue the truth might have intellectual qualms with Christian doctrines? Because I'm not ridiculously biased in favor of the shroud being the real thing like yourself, I'm not being right with God? If anything is going to quote en quote "win me back" it certainly isn't this. Rest assured, I am not losing any sleep over trying "desperately" to debunk the shroud of turin out of fear that I'll have to face the truth or anything.

I think people can have intellectual problems with faith, the bible, doctrines, that is not a sign of hatred or fear by default. We should not stereotype. The shroud, no matter how much authentic, is not what brings people to God, its the love you show and understanding that you show which forms a good healthy conversation. The shroud may one day be debunked, it is not a pillar of faith. Lets not put more importance to it than is needed for spiritual matters. The shroud even if it is of Christ himself, has zero effect on the heart of a person who has qualms with faith. The question of God is more intimate than this. People need to get in touch with a real god, in their lives, that is what they need, relics simply can't do that job.

I have often seen this attitude and I think its destructive. That being said, bippy apologized so lets get back to topic. Seraph is more than welcome to share what he thinks.

Seraph wrote:

bippy123 wrote:

Seraph, I do know the 88 c14 tests very well and so do most of the posters here. The 88 c14 tests were invalidated a long time ago by Agnostic Chemist Ray Rogers , senior fellow at los alamos labs, one of the ebst chemists in the country, and a man who stated he doesnt believe in miracles that defy the laws of nature.
This is his peer reviewed chemical analysis paper accepted in the european chemical journal Thermochimica acta http://www.shroud.it/ROGERS-3.PDF

The weaving technique was also done in those times as well. Do you really need us to debunk this claim as well. Rebecca jackson, former orthodox Jew and an expert in ancient jewish burial customs confirmed thsi as well as others. Its a 3 way herrinbone weave which means it was an expensive weave at that time, which corresponds perfectly with his burial being provided by a rich man (this was even predicted 100's of years before in the messianic prophecies).

The image wasnt airbrushed in any way. Sturp determined with their scientific testing that there were no added substances on the burial cloth, but some chemical change caused by some momentous event that changed the burial cloth chemically. There is Xay information in the areas of the hands, wrist, left femur, Jaw, teeth, Gums and head. Maybe a 1st century scientist got out his handy xray machine and started taking xrays of Jesus's Body . Anything is possible right seraph?

What scientific consensus could you possibly be talking about Seraph? Most scientists who have studied the shroud know the evidence is extremely strong for its authenticity, but how about you study the shroud for yourself if you believe you can debunk it? Or maybe seraph the problem is that you know deep down inside that you cant debunk it

Seraph, most of us here have researched teh shroud for at least a few years (im going on 5+) and the reason why most are confident about its authenticty is because we have looke dthrough the research and the peer reviewed papers written about it.

I told you beforehand that you didnt know what you were getting yourself into. Many pro Shroud scientists were originally skeptics about the shroud and it was only through very meticulous study that they had changed their minds. A real seeker armed with even a bread crumb of evidence would not be able to put the shroud down. I suspect Ken is starting to get intrigued by it, but it seems to me that you dont even want to start digging deep into it. Maybe the problem isnt the evidences for the shroud or the biases for or against it, maybe the problem is within you. Maybe its something that needs to be hased out between you and God?

Talk about unjustified self affirmation. Is it so difficult for you to see that one can remain objective and come to an alternate conclusion? Read through this thread, you will find a ton of very intelligent Christians who remain very skeptical of the authenticity of this object, such as canuckster. All of your sources claiming to support it's authenticity are from sites dedicated to proving its authenticity, which makes me very suspicious of data cherry-picking taking place. Do a simple google search of something like "authenticity of the shorud of turin" and the evidence that comes up is not very one sided in favor of it. No, surely the problem lies with me and some underlying motivation I have right? Is that your method of establishing credibility, resorting to ad hominem?

Look over that long list I constructed in the Deism thread of theological and scientific qualms I have had with Christianity as of late, you think some piece of cloth is going to tip the scales and satisfy my urge for truth regarding those? How about you try tackling some of that instead of going "clearly you have issues with God, its best I don't engage further"? Why is it so difficult to believe that a clear minded person trying to be objective and persue the truth might have intellectual qualms with Christian doctrines? Because I'm not ridiculously biased in favor of the shroud being the real thing like yourself, I'm not being right with God? If anything is going to quote en quote "win me back" it certainly isn't this. Rest assured, I am not losing any sleep over trying "desperately" to debunk the shroud of turin out of fear that I'll have to face the truth or anything.

Seraph I stand corrected , my apologies. This is one of those times where I inserted my own foot in my mouth (it's one if my true areas of expertise), but in the end I'm an inclusivist

I'm sorry too, last night I went off the handle a little bit.

Seraph wrote:I'm sorry too, last night I went off the handle a little bit.

Believe me Seraph, I deserved it and I thank you and everyone else here for lovingly pointing it out to me, if you didn't then how could I ever learn anything

SO..........many........FEELS

Danieltwotwenty wrote:SO..........many........FEELS

I love GROUP HUGSSSSSSSSSS , can we get one more

I love them to, but since this one involves all guys that strikes me as awkward. We need at least one girl, oh.... ? Maybe this will get her attention...

DRDS wrote:I love them to, but since this one involves all guys that strikes me as awkward. We need at least one girl, oh.... ? Maybe this will get her attention...

Nothin wrong with a little pillow fighting between bros now and then

eww, I think I'll pass, that thought almost made me throw up my birthday cake, or in today's case, birthday PIZZA.

DRDS wrote: eww, I think I'll pass, that thought almost made me throw up my birthday cake, or in today's case, birthday PIZZA.

HAPPY BIRTHDAY BROOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Hopefully it will be a new mix of toppings today hehe

Seraph wrote:

DRDS wrote:I love them to, but since this one involves all guys that strikes me as awkward. We need at least one girl, oh.... ? Maybe this will get her attention...

Nothin wrong with a little pillow fighting between bros now and then

Watch out for my straight jab its sneaky hehe

Here's the thing: NO ONE can PROVE that God exists. They can't hold Him in their hands and show you. HOWEVER, God NEVER called us to a blind faith. He left and extraordinary array and vast number of incredibly miraculous evidences behind. His fingerprints are EVERYWHERE. But you have to sincerely look and be open to where the evidences lead you. As for finding proof of anything that you can see, hold and prove, when trying to determine the truth behind something, we must look at the evidences and weigh the probabilities. That a universe came into being by itself, that the laws that guided that universe, from the MOMENT OF ITS INCEPTION, were already in place - well, the laws of physics, chemistry, motion, astronomy, etc - these don't just create themselves. But there they were. And there began a universe where nothing previously existed - well, except perhaps "singularity" - and so where did THAT come from - and all that came from it? So from the moment of the birth of our universe, extraordinary complexity on a vast scale guided by precise laws came into to being.

The massively complex code of life that determines whether one becomes a man, cat, dog or mouse - where did that come from? A simple cell is MASSIVELY complex - far more so than ANY machine man has ever built. So this incredible sophistication and complex design JUST happened? By itself? So this skeptical person can't find any plausibility that ANY such things can just randomly, UNAIDED and UNCAUSED, come into being. That defies logic and all plausible probability. The laws of probability SCREAM that such things are impossible. And arguments to the contrary - unproven, theoretical conjectures are not science. Science guesses about miracles that are inexplicable without a Beginner, Guider and Designer. But many would have us believe these are all possible without any assistance - that a universe can come into existence all by itself; that all matter, space, time and dimension just suddenly appeared ... by ITSELF. And the more one knows about these things, the more enormous one's faith has to be to buy into an uncaused universe.

But all of the above should be just the beginning of understanding that we are not here by accident or pure chance. And if one TRULY wants to know if God exists and whether that even matters, I strongly suggest the sincere questioner sincerely ASK HIM. If one truly wants to know - He'll show them! It may not be a flash from the blue and it may be a gradual understanding - but make no mistake about it, God reveals Himself to those whom SINCERELY seek Him. So I say, do your own private experiment, IF you really want to get to the truth of the matter. And WHY wouldn't you? And who would know?

Yes, there is much to consider and learn about God. But the very fact that He exists and loves us is something He wants everyone to know. But you need to seek and ask. It's really that simple. But, as a young man wandering from my childhood faith, I made my quest for knowing the truth of this matter FAR more complicated than it needed to be. I was looking for proof without realizing the evidences were all around me. Evidences which raised important questions about probabilities. And it was only after I truly KNEW that He is real, that Jesus was God come to earth, that the evidences began to make far more sense. The rationalist that I am, I had tried to intellectually find God, and yet it was more my heart that first opened to an understanding of Him. That's not to say God doesn't reach us through our intellect - He most definitely does. Actually, He does BOTH!

DRDS wrote:I love them to, but since this one involves all guys that strikes me as awkward. We need at least one girl, oh.... ? Maybe this will get her attention...

boys hugging

Here is something new I found, a Shroud of Turin conference video featuring Dr. John Jackson. Here are the links:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iOICzBdrhc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rYr774TUI8