Evidence for God from Science

DRDS wrote:Here is something new I found, a Shroud of Turin conference video featuring Dr. John Jackson. Here are the links:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iOICzBdrhc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rYr774TUI8

Wow thanks bro,these look fairly new, they will give me something good to watch until my dermatologist appointment Wednesday to keep me busy instead of itching.
Jackson is the expertly physicist from NASA and formerly of the air force (I believe ) so I'm extremely interested on what he has to say about the shroud.
How was your birthday bro? Any good pizza?
I still need your email by the way.
Bippy

Are the paintings of Jesus' position on the cross inaccurate?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... ought.html

And I saw this interesting comment at the bottom of the article - I haven't yet checked into it (Bippy?):

"STUDY FROM ARIEL MINISTRIES http://www.ariel.org ...... reasons why the Shroud of Turin cannot possibly be the shroud of the. Messiah."

Philip wrote:Are the paintings of Jesus' position on the cross inaccurate?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... ought.html

And I saw this interesting comment at the bottom of the article - I haven't yet checked into it (Bippy?):

"STUDY FROM ARIEL MINISTRIES http://www.ariel.org ...... reasons why the Shroud of Turin cannot possibly be the shroud of the. Messiah."

Philip, the position of Jesus hands whether they were raised vertically or not isn't a big deal as most artistic renderings of that time also had Jesus pierced through the palm of his hands which was also wrong, but these things don't mean the crucifixion didn't happen.

But lets look closely at the scientist that is behind this article Matteo borinni. He started by saying the shroud is an incredible art work (proven wrong already and debunked) .

Now lets see who he turned to for advice and who actually participated in this research

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg2 ... z6Z_5K9KSP

The Shroud of Turin is a piece of linen cloth imprinted with the faint image of a naked man with what appear to be streams of blood running down his arms (seen in the bottom centre of the photo), and other wounds. Some believe it is the cloth in which Jesus's body was wrapped after crucifixion. But reliable records of it only begin in the 14th century, and carbon dating suggests the Shroud is a medieval forgery.

Either way, the Shroud is worth studying, says Matteo Borrini at Liverpool John Moores University in the UK. "If it's a fake, then it's a very interesting piece of art and human ingenuity," he says.

Borrini wanted to know if the "bloodstains" on the left arm, the clearest ones, were consistent with the flow of blood from the wrist of a crucified person. So he asked Luigi Garlaschelli of the University of Pavia, Italy, to assume different crucifixion postures, while a cannula attached to his wrist dribbled donated blood down his arm.


Philip, do you remember who Luigi Garlaschelli is
He was the atheist chemist hired by the atheist organization of Italy to try to replicate the shroud in 2009 and news media outlets claimed he was successful and a few months later that duplicate was debunked and then there was silence on it lol.

I know that Luigi is a member of the European version of the skeptic society and for some reason borinni rings a bell in my memory circuits as well as far as being a member of that society. But I would take anything that Luigi says or has participated in with a grain of salt.
I think I will ask Stephen Jones to look into this further.

As far as the scene link, when. I clicked on it it just took me to that ministry's home page. I don't see an article on the shroud Philip

Update: I googled around a bit and found the Ariel ministries article in the shroud and it turns out that they made the same elementary mistake start a few Christains make who are against the shroud being of Christ so lets take a look at what they said in the article.


http://www.arielaustralia.com/index.php ... load&id=11

John did not go in, but simply looked inside and saw that the linen cloths, which had been wrapped around Jesus, were lying in one part of the tomb, and the napkin, which had been wrapped around the face, was in another part of the tomb. The term linen cloths is plural which He was wrapped. The head-piece was totally separate from the strips of cloth, which had surrounded the body. This is one of several reasons why the Shroud of Turin cannot possibly be the shroud of the Messiah.

Again again this claim has been debunked by Gary habermas and by the fact that they have the head cloth in Spain which is the sudarium of Oveido .

This was dealt with early on in this thread.

It looks like Ariel ministries which is a messianic site should know the customs of ancient Jewish burials more then most leading me to believe that they an apriori belief that the shroud is a fake and they conveniently ignored the evidences that went against their belief of forgery . The problem with this kind of research is that somebody like Stephen Jones who does do his research thoroughly will spot the error and call them out on it.
There is a second objection which. Will deal with in my next post.

Lets take a look at the second objection.

While John merely looked inside, Peter, who was much more
impetuous than John, ran all the way inside and saw the tomb empty. Then John went inside, too. Peter left the tomb in perplexity, not really sure what to think; John left the tomb believing in the Resurrection. Apparently, one of the reasons for John’s belief is that when he saw the linen cloths, they were still rolled up. They were not unrolled or scattered, which is what one would expect to see if someone had removed them from the body. For example, when Lazarus was resurrected, Yeshua told the audience to unwind the strips of cloth in which Lazarus had been wrapped. In the case of Yeshua, the strips of cloth were never unwound, which means that the Resurrection occurred through the linen cloth!

This is the most ridiculous statement I have ever heard from anyone on the shroud.
ID expect this from a dogmatic skeptic/atheist who knows absolutely nothimg about the shroud and was trying to convince himself that the shroud was a fake, but I would never expect this from someone who is a messianic Jew and beliefs in the resurrection .

I

n the case of Yeshua, the strips of cloth were never unwound, which means that the Resurrection occurred through the linen cloth

Very ingenious statement and that is exactly what the evidence does say when it comes to the shroud, that the resurrection event did occur through the linen cloth lol.
Does this guy not believe that Christ could have done this if he wanted to in his resurrection ? This is exactly what I believe happened on the shroud.

I sure hope this guy doesn't post on Stephen Jones blog because he would be instantly debunked within 30'seconds.

If these are the 2 objections he has about the shroud being real, then he has no case at all, and in fact I have seen dogmatic atheists make better cases against the shroud then this gentleman.

I would say to him that ""we both believe in Christ as Lord and savior , but why would you limit him in what he can so, the God I worship can do anything that is logical, and he sure can resurrect this way if he wanted.""

Philip, for some reason I stopped by a skeptic blog where I saw some nonsense being posted such as the pollens found there were planted there by one of the shroud researchers. It was hillarious. I had a good laugh , posted some factual info and left the blog owner to their conspiracy theories

I have sent a post about the article that talks about the arms of Jesus and how the article has them to Stephen Jones.
I really value his opinion because he has really done his shroud research and im a layman in this area compared to him.

Happy 1,000 posts Bipmeister!

DRDS wrote:Happy 1,000 posts Bipmeister!

Thanks bro, I didn't even notice till now

Philip wrote:Are the paintings of Jesus' position on the cross inaccurate?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... ought.html

And I saw this interesting comment at the bottom of the article - I haven't yet checked into it (Bippy?):

"STUDY FROM ARIEL MINISTRIES http://www.ariel.org ...... reasons why the Shroud of Turin cannot possibly be the shroud of the. Messiah."

Hey Philip, Stephen Jones has given me a reply on his blog under the comments section of this article. Philip I went through the link you gave me and I also saw art work of Christ's arms being in a vertical position .

Here Stephen Jones addresses the problems with a vertical arm position crucifixion.
Please anyone looking to research the shroud I can't emphasize enough how valuable stephen's blog has been towards getting the full information out on the shroud. That is the first blog I Go to when I'm trying to better understand the shroud as his research is exhaustive and thorough. In my mind it's the best blog out there on the shroud.

http://theshroudofturin.blogspot.com/20 ... es_31.html

Comment no 9
Bippy123

Off the top of my head, the claim that the Shroud depicts a Y-shaped cross, has the following problems:

• Blood flows on the arms of the man on the Shroud are consistent with a raised position of 55 degrees and a slumped position of 65 degrees, both from the vertical:

"We are now drawn to the wounds of the crucifixion itself. First we must establish that we can be quite confident we are dealing with a crucifixion victim. The principal evidence for this lies in the flows of blood from the wound in the left wrist. One of the most important aspects is the angle of the two streams of blood closest to the hand, flowing toward the inner border of the forearm. Other, interrupted streams run along the length of the arm as far as the elbow, dripping toward the edge of the arm at angles similar to the original flows. The first two flows are about ten degrees apart, the somewhat thinner [26] one at an angle of about fifty-five degrees from the axis of the arm and the broader one closer to the hand at about sixty-five degrees. This enables us to do two things: (1) to compute that at the time the blood flowed, the arms must have been raised at positions varying between fifty-five and sixty-five degrees from the vertical, i.e., clearly a crucifixion position; (2) to compute that because of the ten-degree difference the crucified man must have assumed two slightly different positions on the cross, that at sixty-five degrees representing full suspension of the body, that at fifty-five degrees a slightly more acute angle of the forearm produced by flexing the elbow to raise the body. We are enabled to deduce then that the crucifixion forced on the victim an up-and-down or seesaw motion on the cross-perhaps, according to one school of thought, in order to breathe, the arms in that position taking a tension equal to nearly twice the weight of the body, inducing near-suffocation if there was no crutch support; perhaps, according to another school of thought, by the victim attempting to relieve himself of one unbearable agony, the pain in his wrists, by raising himself, at the price of yet more pain, on the living wounds in his feet." (Wilson, I., 1978, "The Turin Shroud," pp.25-26).

• Christian tradition has from the earliest times depicted Jesus' cross as a Roman cross † . See my post with a photo of a Roman cross on a fountain in ancient Edessa dated ~215.

• Jn 19:17 says that Jesus "went out, bearing his own cross". He could have carried a horizontal cross-beam (patibulum) but not two long beams making a Y-shape.

• the charge was placed "over his head" (Mt 27:37) which best fits a Roman cross, not a Y-shaped cross.

• Garlaschelli claims the Shroud is a medieval forgery, but a forger would have depicted the tradition Roman cross not a non-traditional Y-shaped cross.

Stephen E. Jones

This older blog post from Stephen shows the Christian cross on the fountain from edessa from 215 ad

http://theshroudofturin.blogspot.com.au ... turin.html

[Above: A stone lion, the symbol of the Abgar dynasty, bearing a Christian cross, in Sanliurfa (Edessa), which must have been erected before AD 215: Wilson, 2010, plate 15b.]

• Edessa is only 180 miles (290 km) from Antioch, on a direct trade-route to it, and spoke the same Syriac language, making it highly likely that Edessa would have been evangelised by the mid-first century:

Hey Philip , I don't know how to post the image but it's there .

Luigi and his skeptical buddy Matteo are just trying to find even a grain of evidence to try to twist their way against the shroud, most likely because they are still smarting from their failed 2009 replication if the shroud

There ya go, Bip!

Hey guys, I just found some new videos on the Shroud from a presentation done just five days ago on April 2nd. It was done at Jesuit High School and the presentation is by Dr. J. Wayne Phillips. Here are all five parts of that presentation, looks like it's very very good. Enjoy guys, GB.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q12CdHh ... v3NdFMqoRw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6ouB1Z ... v3NdFMqoRw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1_hm27 ... v3NdFMqoRw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tZMckc ... v3NdFMqoRw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bi3S47f ... v3NdFMqoRw

Philip wrote:There ya go, Bip!

Thank you so much Philip
This is a 3rd century depiction of the cross from edessa turkey one of the earliest churches from 215 ad.

DRDS wrote:Hey guys, I just found some new videos on the Shroud from a presentation done just five days ago on April 2nd. It was done at Jesuit High School and the presentation is by Dr. J. Wayne Phillips. Here are all five parts of that presentation, looks like it's very very good. Enjoy guys, GB.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q12CdHh ... v3NdFMqoRw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6ouB1Z ... v3NdFMqoRw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1_hm27 ... v3NdFMqoRw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tZMckc ... v3NdFMqoRw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bi3S47f ... v3NdFMqoRw

Wow DRDS bro, I was wondering when he was going to give another presentation. I hope this is a new one ,
Phillips is in daily email contact with the sturp team . This is gonna be fun if it's a new presentation
I enjoyed his first one last year and him being a doctor helped a bit lol.

Lets see what he has learned since his last presentation if in fact these are new ones.

DRDS keep on rocking bro and happy birthdayyyyyyyyyyyyyy

Update on the DRDS video links. They are in fact from a second press station just given this month by the good doctor Phillips. This is gonna be fun to watch
It will keep my mind off my itching for sure

Just finished DRDS's video links. Spectacular presentation, especially video no 5 in which the doctor explain what science believes happens on that shroud,especially how could a man leave the shroud in a natural way without breakimg or smearing bb the blood clots .
Completely blew me away , especially video no 5.
I think the October shroud conference in St. Louis is gonna be very interesting .
Wish I could attend but the cold weather would destroy me