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Re: Understanding the Trinity
Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:33 am
by RickD
jenna wrote:RickD wrote:jenna wrote:RickD wrote:jenna wrote:
eternal punishMENT, yes. not eternal punishING. when one is thrown in the lake of fire, they burn up and are gone forever. they will not burn for eternity. they will simply be gone, with no chance of a resurrection.
I'm not sure if I even should respond to this, but here goes...
How is someone being burned up, annihilated, the same as eternal punishment?
You seriously can't comprehend this?
yes, i understand this. the eternal punishment is eternal death. as opposed to eternal life. when they are gone, it is eternally.
If someone is annihilated, how are they being punished? How is non-existence, punishment?
You really need to think about what you're saying. It's really not logical.
again, i know what i am saying. the punishment for sin is death. at the resurrection, those who do not qualify for the kingdom will be shown everything that they will not have, and then they will be burned up and cease to exist. how is this not a punishment?
Because one can't be punished forever and ever, if one is annihilated into nonexistence.
Re: Understanding the Trinity
Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:47 am
by jenna
RickD wrote:jenna wrote:RickD wrote:jenna wrote:RickD wrote:
I'm not sure if I even should respond to this, but here goes...
How is someone being burned up, annihilated, the same as eternal punishment?
You seriously can't comprehend this?
yes, i understand this. the eternal punishment is eternal death. as opposed to eternal life. when they are gone, it is eternally.
If someone is annihilated, how are they being punished? How is non-existence, punishment?
You really need to think about what you're saying. It's really not logical.
again, i know what i am saying. the punishment for sin is death. at the resurrection, those who do not qualify for the kingdom will be shown everything that they will not have, and then they will be burned up and cease to exist. how is this not a punishment?
Because one can't be punished forever and ever, if one is annihilated into nonexistence.
my point exactly. thank you.
Re: Understanding the Trinity
Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 11:32 am
by RickD
jenna wrote:RickD wrote:jenna wrote:RickD wrote:jenna wrote:
yes, i understand this. the eternal punishment is eternal death. as opposed to eternal life. when they are gone, it is eternally.
If someone is annihilated, how are they being punished? How is non-existence, punishment?
You really need to think about what you're saying. It's really not logical.
again, i know what i am saying. the punishment for sin is death. at the resurrection, those who do not qualify for the kingdom will be shown everything that they will not have, and then they will be burned up and cease to exist. how is this not a punishment?
Because one can't be punished forever and ever, if one is annihilated into nonexistence.
my point exactly. thank you.
Re: Understanding the Trinity
Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 12:53 pm
by PaulSacramento
jenna wrote:PaulSacramento wrote:jenna wrote:PaulSacramento wrote:jenna wrote:
yes, i believe they will be thrown in the lake of fire, but i do not believe they will burn for eternity. they will simply burn up and be gone, forever. the punishMENT is eternal, not the punishING.
The issue is that, according to that very chapter:
the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
This states that punishment in the lake of fire is "forever and ever".
please note that it says the beast and the false prophet WERE, not are. they will be thrown in there and burned up. the ones tormented are the devil and his angels, since they cannot die.
Ok,but not really the point.
The point is that punishment in the lake of fire is everlasting, it says so right here:
"Tormented day and night, forever and ever".
yes, but not for humans. for satan and his angels
You are creating a distinction that is not there and in doing so, changing what scripture says.
Please note that it does NOT say that ONLY Satan, the beast and false prophet will be tormented forever.
You are ADDING that.
what it says is this:
7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. 9 And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, 10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Not Satan and his angles by the way, it states that Satan, and the rest ( that number like the sand in the sea) will be thrown into the lake where the beast and false prophet are and that they ALL will be tormented forever.
After that it says that, in the very same lake of fire:
and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
There is no reason to believe that the lake of fire results in a different type of punishment and torment for one group than the other.
YOU are adding to scripture by saying that and that is not right.
Re: Understanding the Trinity
Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 3:15 pm
by jenna
RickD wrote:jenna wrote:RickD wrote:jenna wrote:RickD wrote:
If someone is annihilated, how are they being punished? How is non-existence, punishment?
You really need to think about what you're saying. It's really not logical.
again, i know what i am saying. the punishment for sin is death. at the resurrection, those who do not qualify for the kingdom will be shown everything that they will not have, and then they will be burned up and cease to exist. how is this not a punishment?
Because one can't be punished forever and ever, if one is annihilated into nonexistence.
my point exactly. thank you.
rick, i do not hold to the eternal hell. i thought you knew this.
Re: Understanding the Trinity
Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 3:24 pm
by jenna
PaulSacramento wrote:jenna wrote:PaulSacramento wrote:jenna wrote:PaulSacramento wrote:
The issue is that, according to that very chapter:
This states that punishment in the lake of fire is "forever and ever".
please note that it says the beast and the false prophet WERE, not are. they will be thrown in there and burned up. the ones tormented are the devil and his angels, since they cannot die.
Ok,but not really the point.
The point is that punishment in the lake of fire is everlasting, it says so right here:
"Tormented day and night, forever and ever".
yes, but not for humans. for satan and his angels
You are creating a distinction that is not there and in doing so, changing what scripture says.
Please note that it does NOT say that ONLY Satan, the beast and false prophet will be tormented forever.
You are ADDING that.
what it says is this:
7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. 9 And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, 10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Not Satan and his angles by the way, it states that Satan, and the rest ( that number like the sand in the sea) will be thrown into the lake where the beast and false prophet are and that they ALL will be tormented forever.
After that it says that, in the very same lake of fire:
and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
There is no reason to believe that the lake of fire results in a different type of punishment and torment for one group than the other.
YOU are adding to scripture by saying that and that is not right.
you accuse me of adding to scripture, yet you just got through changing the words.
first you say that "the rest (that number like the sand in the sea)". where does it say this????
then you say "where the beast and the false prophet ARE". the correct usage is WERE, not are.
also, the bible says plainly that this lake of fire is reserved for satan and his angels. no other explanation needed. to make a reservation, it is for that person only.
Re: Understanding the Trinity
Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 4:25 pm
by Jac3510
jenna wrote:then you say "where the beast and the false prophet ARE". the correct usage is WERE, not are.
You are mistaken.
The word "were" is not in the Greek text. Greek does not require a state of being verb in this sentence. English has to supply it. "Were" is only appropriate in the
English since that it is a helping verb to "thrown" -- i.e., they will be thrown into the same lake that the beast and false prophet
were thrown. But to take the past tense of "were" there to justify a theological reading that the beast and false prophet have been burned up into non-existence is to seriously abuse the English. The Greek word that is important here is
hopou, rendered "where." It refers to a location. The sense of the Greek text is that the devil will be thrown into the same place as the beast and false prophet
are. Again, to be clear, grammatically speaking, the point of the text is not to emphasize the previous fate of the beast and false prophet. Then you would say the devil will be thrown
where they were thrown. Rather, the point of the text is to emphasize that the devil, the beast, and the false prophet are all in the same "where"--the same place--and this is highlighted by the fact that they "will be tormented day and night forever and ever." This is important here. The word "will be tormented" is βασανισθήσονται -- that is a third person PLURAL passive. It means THEY will be tormented. Not the devil (that's a singular subject). It does not say HE will be tormented, but THEY will be tormented, together, in that place.
So, again, the point is that you are factually wrong. The text does not say that is where they "were" thrown. You simply cannot translate this word for word into English. They are just different languages. The best you can do is get the sense. The KJV really does provide the best word-for-word, although it's very inelegant and itself misses some of the point. I'd suggest the following translation:
- And the devil, who decieved them, will be cast into the lake of fire with beast and false prophet; and they will together be tormented day and night for all of eternity.
That is what the verse says.
Re: Understanding the Trinity
Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 4:28 pm
by Jac3510
A good comparable translation to my own, the NET (major and very high end scholarship behind this one):
- And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet are too, and they will be tormented there day and night forever and ever.
Re: Understanding the Trinity
Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 4:32 pm
by RickD
jenna wrote:RickD wrote:jenna wrote:RickD wrote:jenna wrote:
again, i know what i am saying. the punishment for sin is death. at the resurrection, those who do not qualify for the kingdom will be shown everything that they will not have, and then they will be burned up and cease to exist. how is this not a punishment?
Because one can't be punished forever and ever, if one is annihilated into nonexistence.
my point exactly. thank you.
rick, i do not hold to the eternal hell. i thought you knew this.
Let's try this again.
I posted a link:
http://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Lake-Of-Fire
To which you responded:
not a single one of those verses says they will be tormented for eternity. sorry, Rick.
Then, I showed you a verse that says they will be tormented for eternity.
Matthew 25:46
46 “These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
To which, you responded:
eternal punishMENT, yes. not eternal punishING. when one is thrown in the lake of fire, they burn up and are gone forever. they will not burn for eternity. they will simply be gone, with no chance of a resurrection.
And then I asked you if someone is burned up and gone, annihilated from existence, then how can they "go away into eternal punishment", as Matthew 25:46 says?
You say there is no eternal punishment.
Matthew 25:46 says "These will go away into eternal punishment..."
How do you reconcile the contradiction between what the Bible says in Matthew 25:46, and your annihilation belief?
Re: Understanding the Trinity
Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 4:36 pm
by jenna
RickD wrote:jenna wrote:RickD wrote:jenna wrote:RickD wrote:
Because one can't be punished forever and ever, if one is annihilated into nonexistence.
my point exactly. thank you.
rick, i do not hold to the eternal hell. i thought you knew this.
Let's try this again.
I posted a link:
http://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Lake-Of-Fire
To which you responded:
not a single one of those verses says they will be tormented for eternity. sorry, Rick.
Then, I showed you a verse that says they will be tormented for eternity.
Matthew 25:46
46 “These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
To which, you responded:
eternal punishMENT, yes. not eternal punishING. when one is thrown in the lake of fire, they burn up and are gone forever. they will not burn for eternity. they will simply be gone, with no chance of a resurrection.
And then I asked you if someone is burned up and gone, annihilated from existence, then how can they "go away into eternal punishment", as Matthew 25:46 says?
You say there is no eternal punishment.
Matthew 25:46 says "These will go away into eternal punishment..."
How do you reconcile the contradiction between what the Bible says in Matthew 25:46, and your annihilation belief?
i never said there would not be eternal punishment. i said there would not be eternal punishING. there is a huge difference between punishment and punishing. the difference here is that they will burn up once, and be gone for eternity. they will not continue to burn forever.
Re: Understanding the Trinity
Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 4:50 pm
by RickD
jenna wrote:RickD wrote:jenna wrote:RickD wrote:jenna wrote:
my point exactly. thank you.
rick, i do not hold to the eternal hell. i thought you knew this.
Let's try this again.
I posted a link:
http://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Lake-Of-Fire
To which you responded:
not a single one of those verses says they will be tormented for eternity. sorry, Rick.
Then, I showed you a verse that says they will be tormented for eternity.
Matthew 25:46
46 “These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
To which, you responded:
eternal punishMENT, yes. not eternal punishING. when one is thrown in the lake of fire, they burn up and are gone forever. they will not burn for eternity. they will simply be gone, with no chance of a resurrection.
And then I asked you if someone is burned up and gone, annihilated from existence, then how can they "go away into eternal punishment", as Matthew 25:46 says?
You say there is no eternal punishment.
Matthew 25:46 says "These will go away into eternal punishment..."
How do you reconcile the contradiction between what the Bible says in Matthew 25:46, and your annihilation belief?
i never said there would not be eternal punishment. i said there would not be eternal punishING. there is a huge difference between punishment and punishing. the difference here is that they will burn up once, and be gone for eternity. they will not continue to burn forever.
There is not a huge difference between punishment and punishing. The very definition of punishment, is
the act of punishing.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/punishment
In other words, it's not punishment,
by definition, unless there's punishing happening.
So again, I ask, if someone is annihilated out of existence, how are they being punished eternally?
Or, how can someone be punished if they don't exist?
Re: Understanding the Trinity
Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 4:58 pm
by Jac3510
Gerund or regular old noun (punishing v punishment), Rev 20:10 proves the point: "they [the devil, beast, and false prophet] will be tormented day and night forever and ever." That's eternal punishing. No burning up and out of existence.
Re: Understanding the Trinity
Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 4:59 pm
by jenna
RickD wrote:jenna wrote:RickD wrote:jenna wrote:RickD wrote:
rick, i do not hold to the eternal hell. i thought you knew this.
Let's try this again.
I posted a link:
http://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Lake-Of-Fire
To which you responded:
not a single one of those verses says they will be tormented for eternity. sorry, Rick.
Then, I showed you a verse that says they will be tormented for eternity.
Matthew 25:46
46 “These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
To which, you responded:
eternal punishMENT, yes. not eternal punishING. when one is thrown in the lake of fire, they burn up and are gone forever. they will not burn for eternity. they will simply be gone, with no chance of a resurrection.
And then I asked you if someone is burned up and gone, annihilated from existence, then how can they "go away into eternal punishment", as Matthew 25:46 says?
You say there is no eternal punishment.
Matthew 25:46 says "These will go away into eternal punishment..."
How do you reconcile the contradiction between what the Bible says in Matthew 25:46, and your annihilation belief?
i never said there would not be eternal punishment. i said there would not be eternal punishING. there is a huge difference between punishment and punishing. the difference here is that they will burn up once, and be gone for eternity. they will not continue to burn forever.
There is not a huge difference between punishment and punishing. The very definition of punishment, is
the act of punishing.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/punishment
In other words, it's not punishment,
by definition, unless there's punishing happening.
So again, I ask, if someone is annihilated out of existence, how are they being punished eternally?
Or, how can someone be punished if they don't exist?
the punishment for sin is death. that death is eternal. unless you do not hold to the resurrection? if we die before Christ's return, we will be resurrected when He comes back. it is at this point we will be judged. some to eternal life, some to eternal death (not burning in hell). it is this punishment (death) that is eternal, not burning forever.
Re: Understanding the Trinity
Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 4:59 pm
by jenna
Jac3510 wrote:Games over parts of speech aside, Rev 20:10 proves the point: "they [the devil, beast, and false prophet] will be tormented day and night forever and ever." That's eternal punishing. No burning up and out of existence.
the devil cannot die.
Re: Understanding the Trinity
Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 5:00 pm
by RickD
Jac3510 wrote:Games over parts of speech aside, Rev 20:10 proves the point: "they [the devil, beast, and false prophet] will be tormented day and night forever and ever." That's eternal punishing. No burning up and out of existence.
But Jenna's argument is that's only for the devil, beast, and false prophet. Not for people.