Evidence for God from Science

Ok everyone Stephen Jones has responded to the Matteo and Luigi article . Whew that was a quick one
Much thanks to Stephen from down under for having one of the best shroud blogs online.
I'll also go through the article as well when I come back from trying to get my health insurance approved.

Special thanks to Philip for bringing this article to our attention and that's how found out about it
And special thanks to DRDS who is tireless in finding those video links.
Good job guys

I will also bring up the DRDS video link to the latest shroud presentation to Stephen Jones as time permits.

And Neo I haven't forgotten about your request To make a general shroud for newbies post
I will start gathering information slowly as time permits
Thanks everyone , you guys rock

Ok neo and Philip and everyone. You guys requested a general,overview of the shroud for newbies.
I just started working on that today
Should take about a month or a bit more to organize it and clean it up .
Hopefully it will be done right, but you guys can critique it when it's done.
I'm gonna pick DRDS's brains as well for video links too
God bless

Great Bip - your efforts should greatly help those wanting to get to the best, latest and greatest info quickly, as this thread has a vast amount of info. Perhaps also have links refuting key atheist assertions - the typical recycled disinformation that we always hear from those quick to dismiss the Shroud. An overall index of links by subject, question and objections would be awesome!

Thanks again!

Philip wrote:Great Bip - your efforts should greatly help those wanting to get to the best, latest and greatest info quickly, as this thread has a vast amount of info. Perhaps also have links refuting key atheist assertions - the typical recycled disinformation that we always hear from those quick to dismiss the Shroud. An overall index of links by subject, question and objections would be awesome!

Thanks again!

Thanks Philip, I like your suggestions as wel.

What I will start with is the shroud for newbies first and then add to it as we go on.

Newbies need to know how to debunk the basic shallow skeptic assertions and they will with these links
Hope all is well with you and yours my friend
God bless
Bippy

Newbies need to know how to debunk the basic shallow skeptic assertions and they will with these links

Yes, Bip, I think that is a good approach, as if you can quickly debunk the common disinformation people see on the Shroud when they are surfing around, then those serious about knowing the truth of it will be far more likely to do a serious investigation.

Someone had said earlier that if the Shroud is authentic, it, at best, merely leads to deism. I totally disagree. Because as this artifact defies all science in understanding how it was produced, with it's incredible attributes - all these produced before the modern scientific area - AND including the fact that it perfectly matches up with the miraculous story of Jesus found in Scripture - well, what other supposed religion of the various asserted/followed gods has anything like it. As the Shroud has miraculous attributes, was long believed to be the burial garment of Christ, well before its incredible image was even discovered, then I think one would have to seriously consider the story of Christ found in the Bible.

Because the Shroud strongly suggests its attributes and image's origins are scientifically inexplicable and miraculous - ESPECIALLY when one considers the impossibility of pre-scientific age hoaxers having either the technical ability or even the need to create something so incredible. Add in the invisible (and yet accurate specificity) of the correct Jerusalem-area pollens and one must realize the impossibility of anyone faking this. So "IF" Jesus was God and was Resurrected, are not the Shroud's amazing attributes not precisely what we one would expect from the miracle of the Resurrection event described in Scripture? The Shroud's authenticity screams that one seriously consider the story of Jesus, that the miraculous is possible, that God did become man (in Jesus), that He died a hideous death followed by a miraculous Resurrection.

One last thought: IF ancient fakers had the technical ability to created the Shroud's incredible detail and amazing, 3D spatial image, do you not think the details would have long been talked about, that the Shroud contained an amazingly detailed image of a crucified man? And as for the NEGATIVE image - who would be fooled by THAT - not understanding it (pre-photography)? And yet, until photographed, none of these attributes were known to exist. It just makes no sense that someone would (much less COULD) make such a incredible artifact and not trumpet its impressive detail to all initially shown it. And yet all we have is silenced and belief on its origins, prior to it first being photographed.

Hope all is well with you and yours my friend.
God bless
Bippy

Bip, looks like God may be moving our business forward, after all this time!

Thanks,
Philip

Philip wrote:Someone had said earlier that if the Shroud is authentic, it, at best, merely leads to deism.

If you're referring to me, I didn't say it would lead to Deism, I said if it was the authentic burial cloth of Jesus, it would only be evidence that Jesus was a living human who died. I probably said somewhere else that if God is shown to be the first cause, it at the least leads to Deism.

If you're not referring to me, don't mind me.

Seraph wrote:

Philip wrote:Someone had said earlier that if the Shroud is authentic, it, at best, merely leads to deism.

If you're referring to me, I didn't say it would lead to Deism, I said if it was the authentic burial cloth of Jesus, it would only be evidence that Jesus was a living human who died. I probably said somewhere else that if God is shown to be the first cause, it at the least leads to Deism.

If you're not referring to me, don't mind me.

Just curious Seraph about how it could only lead to believing Jesus was a man, if the shroud is authentic then the way the image was created is authentic which would indicate an event that is beyond this physical realm, it would be extraordinary evidence of the supernatural and the divine.

If it could be shown that that is how it was made, and it was the authentic cloth of Jesus, that would definitely be something.

Seraph wrote:If it could be shown that that is how it was made, and it was the authentic cloth of Jesus, that would definitely be something.

Hey seraph hope you are doing well my friend.
The whole point of the shroud isn't about absolute scientific proof of the resurrection , but moreso an inference to the best explanation . As one scientist said you cannot use the shroud to scientifically prove the resurrection since we have never had a resurrection to work with and likely never will.

It can only be used as an inference to the best and most reasonable explanation .

An image that fits the gospel accounts perfectly from head to toe with a technology on it that is way more advanced then anything 21st century science has or has ever seen. Ancient forgers simply didn't have access to xray machines , vp 8 image analyzers, anti gravity technology and so one . This is but one if the reasons why it is one of the most studied objects on the face of the earth .

There are currently a few people that want it tested more.
Firmer agnostic mark Antonacci wants it tested for neutrinos but I don't think the Vatican will allow that because it involved destroying a good amount of the blood on the cloth.

I'll be waiting yet after year for doctor Petrus Soons holographic testing in the holland labs as they try to uncover all of the holographic info on the shroud . Like I said when this is done one day this will be the truly explosive home run that shroud researchers will be waiting for.

It will uncover information that no on I has ever seen before .
It's been a while since we heard anything from the holland labs but when it happens it will be explosive .

Hey bipmeister and everyone else, what do you all make of this article? Now it doesn't have to do with whether or not the shroud being authentic, it's a article suggesting that from what the evidence shows on the Shroud that it appears as though that Christ might have been crucified with His arms above His head sort of in a "Y" shape. Here is the article, I think it's from a secular science website.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg2 ... 0impvldWSo

DRDS wrote:Hey bipmeister and everyone else, what do you all make of this article? Now it doesn't have to do with whether or not the shroud being authentic, it's a article suggesting that from what the evidence shows on the Shroud that it appears as though that Christ might have been crucified with His arms above His head sort of in a "Y" shape. Here is the article, I think it's from a secular science website.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg2 ... 0impvldWSo

Hey bro, your right it doesn't debunk the shroud , but Stephen Jones has already written an article showing the many problems with this theory. This new theory comes from members of the European equivalent of James randi's ciscop so we all know how reliable they have been in the past.

Here is Stephen Jones article bro, and it highlights the numerous problems with this new theory.
http://theshroudofturin.blogspot.com/20 ... cross.html

Ah, good, good assessment on that. I just thought I would mention it since it was something I don't think we have covered until now. Either way, it's great to get that squared away in case if someone else here is aware of that and had questions about it. Talk to you later bro. GB.

DRDS wrote:Ah, good, good assessment on that. I just thought I would mention it since it was something I don't think we have covered until now. Either way, it's great to get that squared away in case if someone else here is aware of that and had questions about it. Talk to you later bro. GB.

I agree bro, and that is why when I first started studying the shroud I went first to the skeptics to see if they had a. Case against it. If they did then there wasn't much of a need to research it further , but the more is studied the skeptics claims the more I saw them abandoning science, reason and logic when trying to debunk the shroud, and this told me that whatever the evidence for the shroud was , it really made atheists insecure to the point where they had to rely on pseudo reason and pure faith to disbelieve in its authenticity , and this was what pulled me deeper into shroud research

Have a great weekend bro and keep me updated on that job
God bless
Bipster

Interesting interview with Russ Breault on the shroud.
Find the interview here.

Stu wrote:Interesting interview with Russ Breault on the shroud.
Find the interview here.

Nice find STU
Looks like ill have something good to watch while im still itching. Tried cuttong bread and glutin off my diet but the itching continues
STU Russ Breault is one of my favorite shroud researchers out there and his knowledge of teh history of the shroud is awesome. Him and Stephen Jones are my favorites.

Good work again STU