Evidence for God from Science

jenna wrote:i have admitted to believing what he taught. but as you may recall, he died a good time ago. you say i would find myself before an inquisition board? that is actually pretty poor judgement on your part, seeing as how i do not go to church, anywhere. they probably do not even know i exist.

and you please tell me where, even once, i have ever said that Jesus is not God?

If the Father is God and Jesus is God then the Holy Spirit is God as well; therefore, the only solution for these to be true and still one God is the Orthodox Christian doctrine to the divine Trinity...

Jenna, who was Jesus praying too?

When Isaiah 43:10 states this: "You are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me." NASB

This sums up what Armstrong teaches written in his book: Mystery of the Ages

Mystery of the Ages
“Chapter 1: Who and What is God?”
Herbert Armstrong’s teaching quotes from this Link

Once again, Armstrong establishes that not only the world in general, but also all professing Christians do not understand who and what God is. Only Armstrong, to whom God has given the special revelation of truth, knows the answers. The answers are in the Bible, of course, but no one knows how to put the Bible’s jigsaw puzzle pieces together except Armstrong. Consequently, whatever Armstrong says about God must be true.

In Armstrong’s view, which we have learned earlier in the book must be equated to God’s view, there are two Gods: One is God and the other is the Logos, or Word, who was is God. They are composed of spirit, and have the form and shape of a human being. The Logos, or Word, is the one through whom God created the universe and the one who became Jesus Christ, at which time the first God became the Father and the Word became the Son. God is in charge and the Word is under him in authority, but still fully God and of the “God kind.” The two of them are eternal and have co-existed together in perfect love eternally. Together they form the one God Family, and their goal is to create other Gods to join them as part of their God Family.

So, your either believe as Armstrong that there are two Gods... or one but two... as Armstrong taught.

Jenna, which is it?

Is Deut 6:4 true or not?

Is Isaiah 43:10. true or not?

Below statement - Quoted form the - Rob Bell AFTER Hell - thread

jenna wrote:i do not put Armstrong's teachings above God's. I believe his teachings are from god. there is a huge difference here. God used prophets to speak His words to people, John, Mark, Luke, Amos, Timothy, etc, etc. You asked me before, if I think that you are not Christian because you believe differently than I do. I am now asking you that same question. Are you afraid I am going to go to hell because I do not see the teachings of the bible the same way you do?

You believe Armstrong, true or not? If true, then you do not believe Jesus is God as the established Orthodox Christian doctrine to the divine Trinity teaches and thus you do not believe Jesus is God but rather another God as Armstrong teaches...

This is one place you allude to this...
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Also...

Quoted from 2007 on the The true religion - Thread

jenna wrote:What I believe is that God and Jesus can be likened to a family, with two separate beings with one like mind. Same as a husband and wife are one family, composed of two separate beings with one like mind (spirit). I do not believe in the 3-in-one trinity idea, where 3 beings are in one body. God the Father- one being, God the Son-one being, and the Holy Spirit connects the two with one like mind.

From the Nov 2007 -The Trinity, tradition or scripture? thread

jenna wrote:I can appreciate the vote of confidence, Byblos, and thank you for it. I do want to clarify one thing though. Many people believe the trinity is 3-in-1. As in 3 beings in one body. This I do not believe. I think , rather, that there are two beings, totally separate from one another, except for the way they think.

Again form the 2007 Thread - The Trinity, tradition or scripture?

B.W. wrote:

jenna wrote:Yes, I agree that Jesus is God. He is God the SON. Just as there is God the FATHER.

Hi Jenna do you agree with the below defintions posted belowFrom this Website:

The Trinity
God is more than a single person. He is not limited to a Triune God, but is a family and consist of many. The belief is that the Godhead is not a closed system in which all others are prevented from taking part. The purpose of man is for God to reproduce Himself in human beings so that they can eventually become gods themselves.

God
"The Word, then, is a Personage who was made flesh - begotten by God, who through this later begettal became his Father. So here we find revealed originally two Personages. One is God. But these two Personages were spirit, which is invisible to human eyes unless supernaturally manifested. Yet at the time described in verse one Jesus was not the Son of God and God was not his Father."
Copyright © Herbert W. Armstrong

Jesus Christ
"Jesus was born to rule and reign as king over all nations of the earth. Nearly 2000 years ago, Jesus qualified to become this world's ruler by conquering Satan the evil one." "His human birth was the arrival of the `second Adam.' He had come to qualify, where the first Adam failed. And he came to be resurrected from the dead by God, making possible ETERNAL GOD-LIFE for the people of God."
Copyright © Herbert W. Armstrong

The Holy Spirit
"The truth is - and it would shock millions to know - that the Holy Spirit is not a person. Rather, it is the agency by which God the Father works. The Holy Spirit is an agency, a force, a power that is used by the Highest - God the Father - to achieve his purpose. The Holy Spirit, we repeat, is not a person."
Copyright © Herbert W. Armstrong

Man
"God wants everyone of us to eventually become like Him."
"Why should it seem strange that you will someday be the spirit-composed child of your heavenly Father? You will be what He is - God."
"God's PURPOSE in having created humanity - in having caused YOU to be born - is to reproduce Himself."
Copyright © Herbert W. Armstrong

Salvation
"God will ultimately save most of mankind after Christ's return - not now." "Every human who ever lived will have an opportunity to receive salvation For most people that time will come after they have lived their entire lives, died and are brought back to life in a future resurrection."
Copyright © Herbert W. Armstrong

From the 2007-08 - Restored church of God - thread
http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 9&start=45

jenna wrote:Ok, good question! For clarification, yes, I believe Jesus is God. However, there is God the Father and God the Son (Jesus). As far as the trinity goes, I believe there are only two Beings in the Godhead, The Father and The Son. Yes, I do believe in the Holy Spirit, but I do not believe that it is a person or third part in the trinity in that sense. The Holy Spirit is the mind of God, not an actual being. Hope this helps some.

jenna wrote:The reason Jesus made the distinction between the two (Holy Spirit and God) was because the Spirit is God's POWER, not God Himself. Just as I can talk about my spirit, but not be referring to me. The Spirit of God and God Himself are not exactly the same. God's Spirit is what gave Jesus His power.

jenna wrote:Jesus was not God's word, but He BROUGHT God's Word here to earth for man to understand. One analogy I use to define the difference between the Holy Spirit and God is this: just think of God as a car. God is the car, and the Holy Spirit is the MOTOR of the car. It is what gives the car the power and ability to move. Without the "motor" , having a car would be useless. God's Spirit is our "motor", it is what gives us our power. This may be a bad comparison, but I hope it helps some. Also, one other point. The "motor" and the "car" are two separate things, yes, and so you can talk about the one without talking about the other, however you MUST have them both together in order to have anything of value. This is why it is possible to talk against the Holy Spirit, or "motor", and not be talking against God, or the "car". I hope this helps you somewhat.

jenna wrote:As you stated earlier we may have to agree to disagree on this. In Deut. 6:4, it reads "Hear O Israel, The Lord our God, the Lord is One". If we take this at face value, then it can be understood why many think there is only one God. But looking at it a little further explains it better. The Hebrew terms from which this verse is translated are written with the English translation. "Shama, (Hear), yisrial (O israel), Yahweh (the Lord) Elohim (God) [is] Yahweh (Lord) echad (alone)." This verse should actually read "Hear O Israel, The Lord God is Lord alone". It is not talking about God being "one", but rather about worshipping God alone, with no other false gods. And there is another point to make. Before the N.T., most people had no knowledge of there being two Gods. They only dealt with one, Jesus Himself. The bible itself shows this. John 5:37 says " And the Father Himself, which has sent Me, has borne witness of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His shape." John 1:18 says "No man has seen God at anytime, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him". Also to further make a point, in Genesis 1:26 "let us make man in OUR image" This here should tell you that there are two Gods. If there is only one God, (even in a 3-in-1) then in order to say this, God would have to have been talking to HIMSELF. The plain teaching of the bible is that there are actually TWO "Gods", which make up ONE family, just as a human family can be comprised of two, three, four or more, it is still ONE, although they are separate.

jenna wrote:

Berean wrote:The Reformed Church of God used to be called the Worldwide Church of God. It is a cult organization and you should steer clear.

Actually, it is the Restored Church, not the Reformed Church. and sad to say, many think this is a cult. And many will learn the truth someday.

I found the last quote here - striking -

Jenna: What did you mean by - And many will learn the truth someday?
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jenna wrote:

Jac3510 wrote:

jenna wrote: ***oh really? what human man would you say this is?

The one called the Antichrist and his false prophet, of course.

***no, they are referring to an empire.

Impossible, by your standards. Empires can't be ridden by women or have horns.

i am aware of Daniel, as i mentioned it above. what human man is referred to in such exotic imagery? none. it is all symbolic.

Alexander the Great

again, nothing much said here. no statement as to how they could be anything more than symbolism. as for the woman, she is a symbol too, but i suppose you find that ridiculous as well.

note somewhere along the line here that you are discussing a spiritual concept with people who insist upon a fleshly interpretation, no offense meant.

I am, of course, the Whore, riding the Beast...but you can pretend the war is fought somewhere other than inside you, if you like. For as long as you like.

Jenna -- I'm going to respond to your comment about 3 paragraphs up about Jesus not being God's Word -- because John 1:1 says "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was With God and the Word Was God..... and nothing is in this world that was not made by God." The last part is paraphrased. But the point is that the Word = Jesus Christ and then Jesus Christ Also Was God.

Jesus Christ came to this world to show us the Father -- and because of the cross -- the Holy Spirit part of the Godhead will come to indwell the believer at the instant of inner belief.

crochet1949 wrote:Jenna -- I'm going to respond to your comment about 3 paragraphs up about Jesus not being God's Word -- because John 1:1 says "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was With God and the Word Was God..... and nothing is in this world that was not made by God." The last part is paraphrased. But the point is that the Word = Jesus Christ and then Jesus Christ Also Was God.

Jesus Christ came to this world to show us the Father -- and because of the cross -- the Holy Spirit part of the Godhead will come to indwell the believer at the instant of inner belief.

yes, i misspoke on that one, funny how one has to go back nearly 10 years ago, to find something like that one. but yes, you are right, Christ is the word. no problem there

wow, 10 years!

jenna wrote:

crochet1949 wrote:Jenna -- I'm going to respond to your comment about 3 paragraphs up about Jesus not being God's Word -- because John 1:1 says "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was With God and the Word Was God..... and nothing is in this world that was not made by God." The last part is paraphrased. But the point is that the Word = Jesus Christ and then Jesus Christ Also Was God.

Jesus Christ came to this world to show us the Father -- and because of the cross -- the Holy Spirit part of the Godhead will come to indwell the believer at the instant of inner belief.

yes, i misspoke on that one, funny how one has to go back nearly 10 years ago, to find something like that one. but yes, you are right, Christ is the word. no problem there

That is good to hear. We sort of got off the Holy Spirit, but have been considering some other important topics. I've been reading along as other posters have gotten into the discussion. God's Word needs to be our authority. People are but fallible people -- God's Word doesn't change.

RickD wrote:

Philip wrote:I'm not getting something that seems obvious: IF God the Father is God, and Jesus is God - are these the SAME PERSON? Was God out in the wilderness talking to Himself? IS there not both a Father AND a Son? Does Jesus not relentlessly speak of Another, One He calls His FATHER, but also One MORE, the Holy Spirit? It seems that many arguing against the Trinity of three Persons have no problem at all with a "Dynamic Duo" - two Persons which are clearly God. But all of these same attributes and pronouns are used of the Holy Spirit that only make sense if that is ALSO a Person. It's hard to see what the huge objection is, to multiple Persons of the One God - as most that recognize Jesus as God have no problem with TWO Persons? But not Three - with the same qualifying attributes and verbiage used.

But to accept all THREE (Father, Son and Spirit) as God, yet to reject the notion of a Trinity - I just find that weird.

And let's not argue over approach, tone, humor (or attempts at it), let's try to stick to the facts and the issues.

At least in Mel's case, I think the disagreement lies in the specific verbiage used in the doctrine. If I can speak for Mel, I think she's saying that the father, son, and Holy Spirit, are all God. It's just that she doesn't see the Holy Spirit as a person, so she can't hold to the Trinity of persons.

Is that accurate, Mel?

Yep, you got it Rick

jenna wrote:As you stated earlier we may have to agree to disagree on this. In Deut. 6:4, it reads "Hear O Israel, The Lord our God, the Lord is One". If we take this at face value, then it can be understood why many think there is only one God. But looking at it a little further explains it better. The Hebrew terms from which this verse is translated are written with the English translation. "Shama, (Hear), yisrial (O israel), Yahweh (the Lord) Elohim (God) [is] Yahweh (Lord) echad (alone)." This verse should actually read "Hear O Israel, The Lord God is Lord alone". It is not talking about God being "one", but rather about worshipping God alone, with no other false gods. And there is another point to make. Before the N.T., most people had no knowledge of there being two Gods. They only dealt with one, Jesus Himself. The bible itself shows this. John 5:37 says " And the Father Himself, which has sent Me, has borne witness of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His shape." John 1:18 says "No man has seen God at anytime, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him". Also to further make a point, in Genesis 1:26 "let us make man in OUR image" This here should tell you that there are two Gods. If there is only one God, (even in a 3-in-1) then in order to say this, God would have to have been talking to HIMSELF. The plain teaching of the bible is that there are actually TWO "Gods", which make up ONE family, just as a human family can be comprised of two, three, four or more, it is still ONE, although they are separate.

Deu 6:4 שׁמע ישׂראל יהוה אלהינו יהוה אחד׃ Reads like this:

Hear! Israel, YHWH, Elohim, YHWH is Echad

Echad means Unity of being, and does not mean alone. There is another Hebrew word that denotes alone and it is not echad.

Rabbi Moses ben Maimon, aka Maimonide around the late 1100 AD changes the rules for this verse to read echad as Yachid - alone.

Sorry, your translation is not the case of alone. Why and how? Well, look at the text - YHWH, Elohim, YHWH - you have the Hebrew plural noun - Elohim between the two YHWH's mentioned in the verse.

Even if you try to insert - alone - into the text, one cannot escape the plural noun - Elohim which testifies YHWH, Elohim, YHWH - still means, united one, which there is none like this just as YHWH declared about himself. Isa 46:9

YHWH, Elohim (Majestic Plural One), YHWH is Echad - united one - note Isa 46:9

or YHWH, Elohim (God), YHWH is Echad united one - alone - matching the meaning found in Isa 46:9

or YHWH (Father), Elohim (The Son), YHWH (Holy Spirit) is Echad united one

Now back to Jenna's old point quoted above:

jenna wrote:The plain teaching of the bible is that there are actually TWO "Gods", which make up ONE family, just as a human family can be comprised of two, three, four or more, it is still ONE, although they are separate...

You are right Jenna you said Jesus is a god however made in in an image and likeness in clear violation of Exodus 20:1-6 and Numbers 23:19.

Jenna your doctrine is polytheistic... and you do not believe in the same Jesus that saves by grace thru faith alone but another Jesus...hate to inform you of that but necessary.

Bible is clear Isa 43:10 no other God formed before or after - zero - none. The plain truth is simple there can be no two gods like a family... that is paganism. Your doctrine does not line up with the truth of the bible.

Also Hosea 13:4 NKJV and Isa 43:11 NKJV and Isa 45:21,22 all say only God can save as in redeem set free, deliver make whole.

As I pointed out, the is none Like God - none. His nature is unlike anything we know. Only the doctrine of Trinity sheds light on the truth of God's nature without violation of scripture. By our human inability to fully understand God's nature makes plain that the truth God spoke about himself stands as true - none like Him...

When I read the Hebrew text of Deut 6:4 - it is simply striking - jarring you awake at the clarity of what it starkly says...

Now if Jac would like to comment on the Hebrew used in Deut 6:4 that would further serve as educational for you.
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Sometimes I hate to do things, Jenna, but you did ask when/where you said Jesus is not God so I showed you when and where.

People can claim that they know Jesus is god but their definition of that under closer scrutiny present another Jesus not found in the bible.

Only the tired, tested, and true doctrine of the Orthodox Christian Trinity explains who Jesus is and it does not teach polytheism at all.God speaks the truth about himself and revealed himself as he is in the Old Testament and New in that manner.

Nicene Creed:

We believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
begotten from the Father before all ages,
God from God,
Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made;
of the same essence as the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven;
he became incarnate by the Holy Spirit and the virgin Mary,
and was made human.
He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered and was buried.
The third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures.
He ascended to heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again with glory
to judge the living and the dead.
His kingdom will never end.
And we believe in the Holy Spirit,
the Lord, the giver of life.
He proceeds from the Father and the Son,
and with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified.
He spoke through the prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church.
We affirm one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look forward to the resurrection of the dead,
and to life in the world to come. Amen.

++++++

Points from the Athanasian Creed

3. we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;

4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.

5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.

6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.

7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.

8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.

9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.

10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.

11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.

12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.

13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.

14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.

15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;

16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.

17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;

18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.

19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;

20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.

21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.

22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.

23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.

24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.

25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.

26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.

27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.

28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.

29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.

30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.

31. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.

32. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.

33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.

34. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.

35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God.

36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.

37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;

38. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead;

39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;

40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;

42. and shall give account of their own works.

43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.

your points on the Nicene Creed and the Athanasian Creed are not found in the bible, sorry. when you are going to give me BIBLICAL quotes, maybe then i will respond.

Jenna

Points 21 - 26, yes, in Bible. #'s 29 and 30.

The Nicene Creed -- everything Except lines 3 and 4 from the bottom. About the apostolic church and baptism.

There have been Scripture passages given prior to now.

crochet1949 wrote:Jenna

Points 21 - 26, yes, in Bible. #'s 29 and 30.

The Nicene Creed -- everything Except lines 3 and 4 from the bottom. About the apostolic church and baptism.

There have been Scripture passages given prior to now.

I have already done so, try starting here on the: Old Testament Concept of God thread linked below and start reading it all...

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 22&t=33317

Also all the verses myself and others cited on this thread as well.

I posted the creeds as they sum up every verse already posted to you on this forum concerning the Trinity. Please note that Catholic way back when did not and I repeat - did not mean the Roman Catholic Church. Catholic meant the Christian Church Universal...

It is your adherence to Armstrong's that is being called into question. Why? Because Armstrong's view on the Trinity indeed advocates polytheism of a family of gods...

Sorry to break it to you Jenna, it does. You cited their belief back in 2007 on this forum and I posted it here on this thread, however, you did not properly cite or source it when you did see below again:

jenna wrote wrote:As you stated earlier we may have to agree to disagree on this. In Deut. 6:4, it reads "Hear O Israel, The Lord our God, the Lord is One". If we take this at face value, then it can be understood why many think there is only one God. But looking at it a little further explains it better. The Hebrew terms from which this verse is translated are written with the English translation. "Shama, (Hear), yisrial (O israel), Yahweh (the Lord) Elohim (God) [is] Yahweh (Lord) echad (alone)." This verse should actually read "Hear O Israel, The Lord God is Lord alone".

It is not talking about God being "one", but rather about worshipping God alone, with no other false gods. And there is another point to make. Before the N.T., most people had no knowledge of there being two Gods.

They only dealt with one, Jesus Himself. The bible itself shows this. John 5:37 says " And the Father Himself, which has sent Me, has borne witness of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His shape." John 1:18 says "No man has seen God at anytime, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him". Also to further make a point, in Genesis 1:26 "let us make man in OUR image"

This here should tell you that there are two Gods.

If there is only one God, (even in a 3-in-1) then in order to say this, God would have to have been talking to HIMSELF. The plain teaching of the bible is that there are actually TWO "Gods", which make up ONE family, just as a human family can be comprised of two, three, four or more, it is still ONE, although they are separate

.

You accuse Orthodox Christians of polytheism due to the Doctrine of the Divine Trinity - and your belief system on God's nature actually teaches polytheism! Wow!

We cited verses and all that already - go back and read them... start here. Your two god (family) doctrine falls apart here...

Isaiah 43:10, "You are My witnesses," says the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me. NKJV

Isaiah 45:18, For thus says the LORD, Who created the heavens, Who is God, Who formed the earth and made it, Who has established it, Who did not create it in vain, Who formed it to be inhabited: "I am the LORD, and there is no other. NKJV

Next point to consider:

In Isaiah 46:9 the LORD in the one speaking on through chapters 47 and 48: Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me... Isa 46:9 NKJV

So by Isaiah 48:16 the Lord says this: "Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord GOD (YHWH) and His Spirit Have sent Me." NKJV

Roll around these verses in your head, ponder them, and forget relying on Pike or Armstrong's writings to interpret these for you. Think for yourself... after all the Lord says he likes to reason with people individually - Isa 1:18

Lastly, concerning who the Holy Spirit is...

Holy Spirit is not a force of will as Armstrong teaches. Why? After all God himself declares in Isaiah 63:10 that the Holy Spirit can be grieved: But they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit; So He turned Himself against them as an enemy, And He fought against them. Isaiah 63:10 NKJV

A force cannot have feelings nor can a force speak Acts 8:29, or pray Rom 8:26... and note how the Holy Spirit is also called God in Acts 5:3,4...

Only way all this work is the established Christian Orthodox doctrine of the Divine Trinity...

Jenna in all due respect - you are relying on another type of Jesus the bible does not speak about. The writings you read are leading you astray. Your organization claims it does not proselytize but it does by hooking people to read and rely on their writings alone. Next comes small group. Then leadership exaltation. Control and exploitation all comes in slow but steady degrees. Which degree you are at or on, I do not know... But you been with this group documented here on this forum since 2007 so you are more advanced in this movement than you let on.

I challenge you to disprove established Christian Orthodox doctrine of the Divine Trinity on your own by not relying on Armstrong or Pikes or any of their writings...
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Anymore questions?
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Jac3510 wrote:

jenna wrote:so now i am ridiculous, laughable,

No, your positions are ridiculous and laughable, as is your poor attempt to deal with what I actually said. As is your habit, you don't actually respond to what people believe but rather silly inventions of your own.

and dont follow through?

It's been your habit not to.

i was going to follow up with this later, but since you say i do not, i will just put a few things out there.
there are 2 beasts described in the bible, one in Revelations and one in Daniel. Revelation 17:8 describes a beast that ascends out of a bottomless pit, and is ridden by a woman. Revelation 13:1-2 describes a beast that has seven heads and ten horns, and upon the horns ten crowns. it was like unto a leopard, feet like a bear, and the mouth like that of a lion. it was given power by the dragon, wounded almost to death, healed, and the world wondered after it, and worshiped it.
This depiction cannot possibly refer to a literal man.

Of course they can, and they do. Incredulity is not a substitute for argument. But just for fun, pray tell, if these descriptions can't refer to a man, what can they refer to? Obviously not an institution. Not an idea. Not a belief. So, what? To nothing at all?

Are you not aware that in Daniel more exotic imagery than that is used to refer to a literal man?

They seem to refer to hybrids. There's an idea out that the Beast and False Prophet are similar to the Nephilim.