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Back to Genesis and Mankind:
Dominion, how we seek dominion! In business we seek to dominate the competition. At home, there are those that dominate family and friends. In the religious world, there are those that seek to dominate. Politics seek dominion. How do we rule? How do we bend the rules for our own gain?
Genesis 1:26, “And God said: 'Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion…” KJV
What is the nature of this dominion that God granted humanity to have? It was to be a reflection of God's nature, character on earth. It was intended for mankind to govern in a fair, even handed, just, righteous, loving, merciful, manner as God does all creation and reflect that on earth, to our family, home, community, nation, life itself.
Do you think the bible says in vain for Christians to be Christ like, be imitators of God? 1 Corinthians 11:1, Ephesians 5:1-17, 1 John 2:6, 1 John 4:4, Galatians 4:19-21, John 17:20-26. God is restoring the real meaning and purpose of dominion back into our lives.
Romans 3:23, “for all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God, NKJV” the bible shouts! What is the Glory of God? How else can you express the majesty of God's glorious nature and character?
The Glory of God is revealed by how he governs within all fairness, righteousness, circumspect Justice, mercy, according too true truth, displays of grace, not lying, not taking back what he promises and gives, permitting liberty of thought and reason, holding accountable with equity, healing, restoring in the most fair way, not acting unjustly, being humble, patient, kind, longsuffering, teaching and instructing with wisdom, tact and the list goes on.
We no longer exercise this style of dominion or reflect it [God's Image]; instead we seek to define our own dominion and rule with iron over clay. Mankind fell and lost the image of God we were designed to reflect: shining forth God's nature and character where we live. The Glory of God profound!
Such a gift this was that a test was conceived by God in order to test dominion granted humanity. God test the heart based on what was foreknown. God saw that Humanity would fail this test and in doing so, God will prove himself supreme! 1 Peter 1:10-13.
Genesis 2:9, “and God planted a tree of the knowledge of good and evil.” NKJV
To bad we fail to see that it was the very dominion granted to Adam God was testing through the use of the knowledge of good and evil. How will man use his gift of dominion? Will he seek to take it for what he deems as a good and noble course? Or use it as a tyrant for evil? Either way is wrong.
Will man use the knowledge of good and evil to exercise dominion over the ways and means to be fruitful? Multiply? Replenish? Employed in the means to subjugate, subdue, force, keep under, bring into bondage, to dominate? Will man use this knowledge to manipulate the moral laws of God, his nature and character, to rule as they see best?
What direction will this dominion sway? God's way as designed? Or man's way? God test the heart. Romans 3:23, “for all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God,” NKJV.
Foreknowing the fall of mankind would happen; would abandoning humanity or even destroying humanity have been the wisest and best course of action God could have taken? And for that matter, destroying the devil into non-existence in the process too? Would not this course prove God not all powerful and thus misuse his own manner of dominion's governorship?
God has a plan. We are part of it. Deny it if you like. The Glory of God will prevail as we shall soon see!
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God's omniscience vs free-will
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B. W.
- Ultimate Member
- Posts: 8355
- Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:17 am
- Christian: Yes
- Location: Colorado
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Dominion Continued:
Genesis 1:26, “And God said: 'Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over…”
Dominion? What is it? How is it defined? The Hebrew word translated here denotes the ability to rule, to have authority, dominate, tread down, subjugate, a have a say-so in the governance of life on earth. God assigned humanity, as it were, to be God's representative, God's viceroy, upon earth.
Man and woman were fashioned to rule as God does: thus, to be a reflection, an image of God's nature and character on earth. Governing according to how God governs with fairness, righteousness, circumspect justice, mercy, reflect true truth, display grace, not lying, not taking back promises or gifts, permitting liberty of thought and reason, holding accountable with equity, healing, restoring in the most fair way, not acting unjustly, being humble, patient, kind, longsuffering, teaching and instructing with wisdom, tact, etc and etc.
God even granted humanity the ability to multiply, bear young. Why? To give a taste of what it is like to rule over a free-minded, independent willed, person. Think about it for awhile!
Before the fall, dominion did not mean to be coercive, tyrannical, motivated by self-willed selfishness, acting with malice to implement control, to control for mere pleasure of control, to dominate in order to promote self regulated agendas and ideas. Instead, it meant the opposite of these. Dominion was to reflect God's nature and character on earth — an image of God's moral laws governing the affairs of life on this planet bound to equity and proved by love.
My oh My - How Far have We Fallen:
Genesis 2:9 “And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.” KJV/JPS
God planted a tree in the Garden of Eden. He foresaw its need to test the gift of dominion granted Adam and Eve. He Foresees, the ultimate goal of a new heaven and earth where righteousness reigns, and sin and death have ended. Within a stretch of time, God will reveal himself, his character and nature, and prove himself true to himself in all the he will do to reach that state predestined.
Humanity will need to learn how to have dominion and exercise it correctly as God does and was thus entrusted with this gift of implementing dominion to learn what true liberty really consist of. Man was made in his own image that reflects God's glorious image in what we will later be entrusted with, Romans 8:19-25.
Rom 8:19-22, “For the earnest expectation of the creation waits for the manifestation of the sons of God; For the creation was not willingly subjected to vanity, but because of Him who subjected it on hope that the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. And we know that the whole creation groans and travails in pain together until now.” MKJV
Next Frame...
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Dominion Continued:
Genesis 1:26, “And God said: 'Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over…”
Dominion? What is it? How is it defined? The Hebrew word translated here denotes the ability to rule, to have authority, dominate, tread down, subjugate, a have a say-so in the governance of life on earth. God assigned humanity, as it were, to be God's representative, God's viceroy, upon earth.
Man and woman were fashioned to rule as God does: thus, to be a reflection, an image of God's nature and character on earth. Governing according to how God governs with fairness, righteousness, circumspect justice, mercy, reflect true truth, display grace, not lying, not taking back promises or gifts, permitting liberty of thought and reason, holding accountable with equity, healing, restoring in the most fair way, not acting unjustly, being humble, patient, kind, longsuffering, teaching and instructing with wisdom, tact, etc and etc.
God even granted humanity the ability to multiply, bear young. Why? To give a taste of what it is like to rule over a free-minded, independent willed, person. Think about it for awhile!
Before the fall, dominion did not mean to be coercive, tyrannical, motivated by self-willed selfishness, acting with malice to implement control, to control for mere pleasure of control, to dominate in order to promote self regulated agendas and ideas. Instead, it meant the opposite of these. Dominion was to reflect God's nature and character on earth — an image of God's moral laws governing the affairs of life on this planet bound to equity and proved by love.
My oh My - How Far have We Fallen:
Genesis 2:9 “And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.” KJV/JPS
God planted a tree in the Garden of Eden. He foresaw its need to test the gift of dominion granted Adam and Eve. He Foresees, the ultimate goal of a new heaven and earth where righteousness reigns, and sin and death have ended. Within a stretch of time, God will reveal himself, his character and nature, and prove himself true to himself in all the he will do to reach that state predestined.
Humanity will need to learn how to have dominion and exercise it correctly as God does and was thus entrusted with this gift of implementing dominion to learn what true liberty really consist of. Man was made in his own image that reflects God's glorious image in what we will later be entrusted with, Romans 8:19-25.
Rom 8:19-22, “For the earnest expectation of the creation waits for the manifestation of the sons of God; For the creation was not willingly subjected to vanity, but because of Him who subjected it on hope that the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. And we know that the whole creation groans and travails in pain together until now.” MKJV
Next Frame...
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B. W.
- Ultimate Member
- Posts: 8355
- Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:17 am
- Christian: Yes
- Location: Colorado
The Fall:
Genesis 3:1-7 records how humanity first parents exchanged the truth about God for a lie and fell away from God into sin. If you will look closely at these verses, you will see it was a test involving dominion.
Gen 3:1, “Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman: 'Yea, hath God said: Ye shall not eat of any tree of the garden?” JPS
In essence, the serpent was more cleverly subtle knowing God will not deny Himself. The serpent understood the concepts of God's fairness, justice, righteousness, God's unfailing ability to keep his word and not take back any gift He gives.
Yes the devil knew full well that God will-not extinguish life into a state of non-existence because it was a gift. This fallen covering Cherub began the temptation to misuse God's own moral nature and character to get away with seeking ultimate dominion. He is subtle isn't he? Going about questioning God's authority? Job 1:10, 1 Peter 5:8-11.
Through this act, the rebel is caught and convicted in the most fair-handed manner and righteously just way, that there can no longer be doubt that he would constantly corrupt life, if allowed to remain. Instead, he will be used by God to achieve God's goals for a period of time, proving who is really in control. And a place will be made for the devil and his cohorts, Matthew 25:41, 2 Peter 2:4.
Gen 3:2-3, “And the woman said unto the serpent: 'Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat; but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said: Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.” JPS
Clever tactic, reminding them of God's own words sent to govern fairly which allows independent thought and reason. Adding to God's word they found the lie alluring. Keep in mind, Adam was only an arms length away from Eve while this happened. She handed him the fruit. He was taken in by the serpent's lie, after all, God said that Adam had authority over all creatures on earth. What did he have to lose to 'just' listen?
Gen 3:4, “And the serpent said unto the woman: 'Ye shall not surely die; for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil.” JPS
Dominion challenged. They could both see the serpent was not dead and both also knew that God would not extinguish their own lives into non-existence either. They walked with God and knew their creator's nature and character well: God spoke and communed with Adam and Eve, Gen 1:29-30, Gen 2:18-19, or have you forgotten this part?
Gen 3:6-7, “And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat; and she gave also unto her husband with her, and he did eat. And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig-leaves together, and made themselves coverings.” JPS
Oh, to be like God! After all, were they not God's viceroys on earth? - To govern as God does? Why not take the fruit? God gave them dominion over the earth. They could see how good it will be for food, how delightful for the eyes to see, and how one can be so wise exercising dominion — their own dominion in their own image and likeness: Has not God said?
Now we can implement the knowledge of good and evil to exercise dominion over the ways and means to be fruitful! What will make you fruitful? New clothes? Cars? TV's? Riches? Power? Control? Etc. What things do we do to remain fruitful and be fruitful at whom and what's expense?
We can implement the knowledge of good and evil to exercise dominion over the ways and means to multiply: have sex with whomever, whenever and whatever desired is a modern argument used today that reflects humanities dominion to multiply.
What about increasing appetites for base things and perversions? Or the mass means to increase wealth and power unjustly for wrongful uses? Neglect the truly downtrodden, poor, and infirm and justify our neglect as righteous so we can multiply?
Now we can implement the knowledge of good and evil to exercise dominion over the ways and means to replenish the earth! How about you? How do you go about replenishing yourself? Drugs? Booze? Lust? Slander? Gossip? Own the best toys? Money? Popularity? Renown? Note: Matthew 6:24.
Also, what do we do with the gift of this planet entrusted to us both the bad and the good? We declare — we do not need to reflect God here anymore, but our own image and likeness. What a mess, exploitation and its unseen but oft felt cost. Evolutions slap on the face of God! Multiplied intelligence at work to verify a dream or foolishness extreme?
Now we can implement the knowledge of good and evil to exercise dominion over the ways and means to subdue, subjugate, force, keep under, bring into bondage, to dominate according to humanities own ideas and wisdom.
Now humanity can implement the knowledge of good and evil to exercise dominion over the ways and means to tend and keep our own affairs of life! See some results: Broken homes, shattered dreams, unkind words we speak that hurt, how we despise all authority except our own, live self willed no matter the cost, carousing, living hypocrisy, justifying guile and cunning to get what you desire at your loved ones expense and anyone's else's too.
Yes, Adam and Eve both saw that this fruit would make them so wise that they can now manipulate the moral laws of God, his nature and character, to rule as they see best. Oh my, how we all sin and make life so ugly exploiting God's love and grace, Romans 6:1-2! Adam and Eve both ate and saw they were naked, without God and hope in the world. Do You?
Can you see how far we all have fallen from the Glory of God?
Dominion, Humanity likes to exercise it! Oh! How much dominion we can have by relying on written laws! So much so, that I am afraid we would even bend God's own written laws to fit human-centric notions of dominion concerning what it means to please God. No wonder the Law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, Galatians 3:24.
Isn't that what precisely happened in the Old Testament? Note: Zechariah 7:8-12. Jesus in righteous anger drove the unrighteous out of the temple declaring his message — repent! Return back to God! John 2:14-25, Mark 1:15. That is why the Old Testament Laws could not save nor atone for sin, as we would twist them to justify our own acts of dominion. Isn't this the nature of all religions devised by man?
We manipulate God's written law so much to prove we have dominion over life on earth and not God, thus, we neglect true dominion which is summed up in Micah 6:8, “It hath been told thee, O man, what is good, and what the LORD doth require of thee: only to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God.” JPS/KJV
Those that are of the truth will hear the truth about God! Those that will not remain firmly seeking dominion to dominate all things, even God himself.
Is it all Hopeless?
As I stated before, God cannot deny himself. This is a great strength and not weakness. God foresaw the need to redeem humanity in an extremely just and fair manner that honors whom he created as well as how they were designed as independent minded beings. This independence will be challenged and provoked to return to God freely or permitted to reject God and thus continue to live in ones-own image of dominion. How fair is fair?
God is a just God. What is justice without consequences? God displays these consequences to us. Some will return to God and others will not. Do those that return to God do so because God foresaw who will? Or did he blindly select those that will return to him out from the mass sea of humanity born and yet to be born?
Knowing something of God's nature and character answers this: Blindly selecting is not just and makes God the author of sin. God cannot sin. To himself he remains true and gave the responsibility to humanity to respond to what God himself foresaw was needed to prove himself, loving, kind, just, fair, righteous, etc, to none other than Himself. Thank God He did so! Glory to God forevermore!
Sin is the creatures own making. The moral law of God reveals who God is and what He is like. Sin seeks to take dominion away from God's moral law and replaces this with its own dominion. How? By taking advantage of God's love, kindness, justice, fairness, righteousness, etc, to remain unchanged and unchecked in ones reach for dominion.
God foresaw the need to call out to lost humanity so they can return. For those he foreknew would hear, he predestined, those he predestined he called so they could hear. In this God proves himself God. He knows all things before they ever be and shapes us according to what he foreknows about us.
The Call...to be continued
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Genesis 3:1-7 records how humanity first parents exchanged the truth about God for a lie and fell away from God into sin. If you will look closely at these verses, you will see it was a test involving dominion.
Gen 3:1, “Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman: 'Yea, hath God said: Ye shall not eat of any tree of the garden?” JPS
In essence, the serpent was more cleverly subtle knowing God will not deny Himself. The serpent understood the concepts of God's fairness, justice, righteousness, God's unfailing ability to keep his word and not take back any gift He gives.
Yes the devil knew full well that God will-not extinguish life into a state of non-existence because it was a gift. This fallen covering Cherub began the temptation to misuse God's own moral nature and character to get away with seeking ultimate dominion. He is subtle isn't he? Going about questioning God's authority? Job 1:10, 1 Peter 5:8-11.
Through this act, the rebel is caught and convicted in the most fair-handed manner and righteously just way, that there can no longer be doubt that he would constantly corrupt life, if allowed to remain. Instead, he will be used by God to achieve God's goals for a period of time, proving who is really in control. And a place will be made for the devil and his cohorts, Matthew 25:41, 2 Peter 2:4.
Gen 3:2-3, “And the woman said unto the serpent: 'Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat; but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said: Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.” JPS
Clever tactic, reminding them of God's own words sent to govern fairly which allows independent thought and reason. Adding to God's word they found the lie alluring. Keep in mind, Adam was only an arms length away from Eve while this happened. She handed him the fruit. He was taken in by the serpent's lie, after all, God said that Adam had authority over all creatures on earth. What did he have to lose to 'just' listen?
Gen 3:4, “And the serpent said unto the woman: 'Ye shall not surely die; for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil.” JPS
Dominion challenged. They could both see the serpent was not dead and both also knew that God would not extinguish their own lives into non-existence either. They walked with God and knew their creator's nature and character well: God spoke and communed with Adam and Eve, Gen 1:29-30, Gen 2:18-19, or have you forgotten this part?
Gen 3:6-7, “And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat; and she gave also unto her husband with her, and he did eat. And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig-leaves together, and made themselves coverings.” JPS
Oh, to be like God! After all, were they not God's viceroys on earth? - To govern as God does? Why not take the fruit? God gave them dominion over the earth. They could see how good it will be for food, how delightful for the eyes to see, and how one can be so wise exercising dominion — their own dominion in their own image and likeness: Has not God said?
Now we can implement the knowledge of good and evil to exercise dominion over the ways and means to be fruitful! What will make you fruitful? New clothes? Cars? TV's? Riches? Power? Control? Etc. What things do we do to remain fruitful and be fruitful at whom and what's expense?
We can implement the knowledge of good and evil to exercise dominion over the ways and means to multiply: have sex with whomever, whenever and whatever desired is a modern argument used today that reflects humanities dominion to multiply.
What about increasing appetites for base things and perversions? Or the mass means to increase wealth and power unjustly for wrongful uses? Neglect the truly downtrodden, poor, and infirm and justify our neglect as righteous so we can multiply?
Now we can implement the knowledge of good and evil to exercise dominion over the ways and means to replenish the earth! How about you? How do you go about replenishing yourself? Drugs? Booze? Lust? Slander? Gossip? Own the best toys? Money? Popularity? Renown? Note: Matthew 6:24.
Also, what do we do with the gift of this planet entrusted to us both the bad and the good? We declare — we do not need to reflect God here anymore, but our own image and likeness. What a mess, exploitation and its unseen but oft felt cost. Evolutions slap on the face of God! Multiplied intelligence at work to verify a dream or foolishness extreme?
Now we can implement the knowledge of good and evil to exercise dominion over the ways and means to subdue, subjugate, force, keep under, bring into bondage, to dominate according to humanities own ideas and wisdom.
Now humanity can implement the knowledge of good and evil to exercise dominion over the ways and means to tend and keep our own affairs of life! See some results: Broken homes, shattered dreams, unkind words we speak that hurt, how we despise all authority except our own, live self willed no matter the cost, carousing, living hypocrisy, justifying guile and cunning to get what you desire at your loved ones expense and anyone's else's too.
Yes, Adam and Eve both saw that this fruit would make them so wise that they can now manipulate the moral laws of God, his nature and character, to rule as they see best. Oh my, how we all sin and make life so ugly exploiting God's love and grace, Romans 6:1-2! Adam and Eve both ate and saw they were naked, without God and hope in the world. Do You?
Can you see how far we all have fallen from the Glory of God?
Dominion, Humanity likes to exercise it! Oh! How much dominion we can have by relying on written laws! So much so, that I am afraid we would even bend God's own written laws to fit human-centric notions of dominion concerning what it means to please God. No wonder the Law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, Galatians 3:24.
Isn't that what precisely happened in the Old Testament? Note: Zechariah 7:8-12. Jesus in righteous anger drove the unrighteous out of the temple declaring his message — repent! Return back to God! John 2:14-25, Mark 1:15. That is why the Old Testament Laws could not save nor atone for sin, as we would twist them to justify our own acts of dominion. Isn't this the nature of all religions devised by man?
We manipulate God's written law so much to prove we have dominion over life on earth and not God, thus, we neglect true dominion which is summed up in Micah 6:8, “It hath been told thee, O man, what is good, and what the LORD doth require of thee: only to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God.” JPS/KJV
Those that are of the truth will hear the truth about God! Those that will not remain firmly seeking dominion to dominate all things, even God himself.
Is it all Hopeless?
As I stated before, God cannot deny himself. This is a great strength and not weakness. God foresaw the need to redeem humanity in an extremely just and fair manner that honors whom he created as well as how they were designed as independent minded beings. This independence will be challenged and provoked to return to God freely or permitted to reject God and thus continue to live in ones-own image of dominion. How fair is fair?
God is a just God. What is justice without consequences? God displays these consequences to us. Some will return to God and others will not. Do those that return to God do so because God foresaw who will? Or did he blindly select those that will return to him out from the mass sea of humanity born and yet to be born?
Knowing something of God's nature and character answers this: Blindly selecting is not just and makes God the author of sin. God cannot sin. To himself he remains true and gave the responsibility to humanity to respond to what God himself foresaw was needed to prove himself, loving, kind, just, fair, righteous, etc, to none other than Himself. Thank God He did so! Glory to God forevermore!
Sin is the creatures own making. The moral law of God reveals who God is and what He is like. Sin seeks to take dominion away from God's moral law and replaces this with its own dominion. How? By taking advantage of God's love, kindness, justice, fairness, righteousness, etc, to remain unchanged and unchecked in ones reach for dominion.
God foresaw the need to call out to lost humanity so they can return. For those he foreknew would hear, he predestined, those he predestined he called so they could hear. In this God proves himself God. He knows all things before they ever be and shapes us according to what he foreknows about us.
The Call...to be continued
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B. W.
- Ultimate Member
- Posts: 8355
- Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:17 am
- Christian: Yes
- Location: Colorado
I am almost finished with this but it is long. I will place a few parts for your reading enjoyment. The part about Pharaoh Heart is coming up and then the rest...
Continued...
Our Dominion: A Hard Heart
When I speak of dominion, I am speaking of how we exercise our ability to rule, exercise authority in our lives, what we dominate, tread down, and subjugate. We base this on our own knowledge of what will be good or bad to us personally. Some may even rightfully interpret this dominion I speak of as self-will or even as a hard heart.
For example, there are people that obliviously seek to control and toss their self-willed authority around. There are even others that seek to govern their privet worlds by having self willed pity parties, petty sadness, paltry tantrums, as well as by many various self willed subtle manipulative means to maintain some form control over their lives.
Some rule with diverse forms of negativity to maintain control over peers and family. Ruled by fear can go either way: one can intimidate with violence, threats, personality or let the fear of living, making mistakes, fear of being hurt again be the dominion all must be subjugated too. The list goes on. The heart is truly hubris and desperately twisted. All human hearts have become hard through sin. There are none righteous but God. All have sinned.
The human heart needs to be engaged and changed. Some hearts, according to God's nature of justice and fairness will remain hard no matter what. Others will change only after God engages it through His call. He foreknows all things knowing who will remain hard and who will not before time began. He tests the heart fairly, righteously, mercifully above what our humanness would ever allow. His ways are way above our own.
God test the heart to see what we will do with this free gift of dominion. God does not make someone a child molester or a serial killer. God does not make one evil, so he can toss them into hell. People make themselves so by how they use their dominance. God foresees everything, leaving the sin to be the creatures own, not his doing. He has responsibility to confine this dominance so that it does not replicate its hardness eternally.
Zechariah 7:11-12 states that people harden their own hearts into the type of dominance they wish to implement. They refused to hear God's call to return, to return to him and his Glory and in exchange are turned over to the dominion they want to live by as Romans 1:16-32 reveals. God foresees that a hard heart will remain hard no matter what, and God can thus make it harder than it ever was if he so wills for his own plans.
Fair is fair, just is just, righteous is righteous, love is love, and God is God. He calls out to everyone because of who he is, proving he is the Lord God of all creation. He has the final word on where one will spend eternity. Evil only gives the illusion of triumph through many terrifying acts but in the light of the eternal, it will lose. God is in charge, governing according to his nature and character, revealing his living dominance supreme.
Remember God can make hard clay harder or softer in accordance to his nature, character, and moral laws that govern the universe. When God chooses to make the hard clay, harder, then there is a just and fair method involved in doing so which absolves God of being the author of sin and still maintain control of free minded beings, justly. When studying Pharaoh's hard heart, it is good to remember this and avoid a subtle human dominance.
Next section...to be continued....entitled....
What about Pharaoh then — did not God harden him?
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Continued...
Our Dominion: A Hard Heart
When I speak of dominion, I am speaking of how we exercise our ability to rule, exercise authority in our lives, what we dominate, tread down, and subjugate. We base this on our own knowledge of what will be good or bad to us personally. Some may even rightfully interpret this dominion I speak of as self-will or even as a hard heart.
For example, there are people that obliviously seek to control and toss their self-willed authority around. There are even others that seek to govern their privet worlds by having self willed pity parties, petty sadness, paltry tantrums, as well as by many various self willed subtle manipulative means to maintain some form control over their lives.
Some rule with diverse forms of negativity to maintain control over peers and family. Ruled by fear can go either way: one can intimidate with violence, threats, personality or let the fear of living, making mistakes, fear of being hurt again be the dominion all must be subjugated too. The list goes on. The heart is truly hubris and desperately twisted. All human hearts have become hard through sin. There are none righteous but God. All have sinned.
The human heart needs to be engaged and changed. Some hearts, according to God's nature of justice and fairness will remain hard no matter what. Others will change only after God engages it through His call. He foreknows all things knowing who will remain hard and who will not before time began. He tests the heart fairly, righteously, mercifully above what our humanness would ever allow. His ways are way above our own.
God test the heart to see what we will do with this free gift of dominion. God does not make someone a child molester or a serial killer. God does not make one evil, so he can toss them into hell. People make themselves so by how they use their dominance. God foresees everything, leaving the sin to be the creatures own, not his doing. He has responsibility to confine this dominance so that it does not replicate its hardness eternally.
Zechariah 7:11-12 states that people harden their own hearts into the type of dominance they wish to implement. They refused to hear God's call to return, to return to him and his Glory and in exchange are turned over to the dominion they want to live by as Romans 1:16-32 reveals. God foresees that a hard heart will remain hard no matter what, and God can thus make it harder than it ever was if he so wills for his own plans.
Fair is fair, just is just, righteous is righteous, love is love, and God is God. He calls out to everyone because of who he is, proving he is the Lord God of all creation. He has the final word on where one will spend eternity. Evil only gives the illusion of triumph through many terrifying acts but in the light of the eternal, it will lose. God is in charge, governing according to his nature and character, revealing his living dominance supreme.
Remember God can make hard clay harder or softer in accordance to his nature, character, and moral laws that govern the universe. When God chooses to make the hard clay, harder, then there is a just and fair method involved in doing so which absolves God of being the author of sin and still maintain control of free minded beings, justly. When studying Pharaoh's hard heart, it is good to remember this and avoid a subtle human dominance.
Next section...to be continued....entitled....
What about Pharaoh then — did not God harden him?
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B. W.
- Ultimate Member
- Posts: 8355
- Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:17 am
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- Location: Colorado
I thought I posted this...but cannot find where I did on Forum...Here it is again...
What about Pharaoh then — did not God harden him?
What about Pharaoh then — did not God harden him is a question posed by many. If you only focus on a single scripture theme, that is only what you will see. Focus on God's anger, wrath, and that is all you'll know. Only focus on God hardening Pharaohs heart, you'll miss how and why God hardens a heart, Romans 9:13-23.
Remember that through the very fall of humanity in the Garden of Eden all hearts are hard. This concept is important to recall regarding Pharaoh's heart. All have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God, or have you forgotten this? Pharaoh's heart was hard before God said he harden it in the Exodus account. God made cement into granite: More on this later.
Romans Chapter Nine cannot stand on its own. It must match all other scriptures on the same themes it proposes. Only by examining all scriptures of the same theme can you be sure of what it is really saying. It must hold with all scriptures that tell that people harden their own hearts without coercion, and in doing so, you will discover how and why God can harden hearts too.
If you do not do this as well as note the actual content of Romans Chapter Nine, you can spin-off into great error. Not understanding that through Abraham all nations will be blest, you will not comprehend God's plan of salvation that came through the children of Israel that God predestined before time began; and instead come to an unfocused perception of who God really is and how he truly acts.
Many stagnate when it comes to God hardening Pharaoh's heart and go no further exploring God's foreknowing, predestination, and call. They remain camped by the same mountain declaring, “God made sinners sin! Look at Pharaoh, God made his heart hard! He made the wicked-wicked so he can torment them in hell! Don't complain! How dare you complain — the pot has no right to complain to the master potter - you made me thus! Rejoice and be glad in this! Has not God said? I got chapter and verse!”
This line of thinking does not line up with God's nature and character which reveals His moral law: “Don't blame God when you are tempted! God cannot be tempted by evil, and he doesn't use evil to tempt others. We are tempted by our own desires that drag us off and trap us. Our desires make us sin, and when sin is finished with us, it leaves us dead. Don't be fooled, my dear friends. Every good and perfect gift comes down from the Father who created all the lights in the heavens. He is always the same and never makes dark shadows by changing.” James 1:13-17, CEV.
Romans 9:10-33 is describing something different than what many propose. Without God's call, Jacob would not have become Israel and Jesus never made manifest to humanity. Through Abraham all nations will be blest.
Romans 9:11 “...for [Rebecca's] children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of the One calling…” LITV
How often is this verse misused? You need to ask God, how does he elect — call out? When does God elect? Answer is before any of us were ever born or have done anything bad or good. God just knows who are his because He foresaw the need to call out his mercy to prove he is merciful to 'all' so some of the 'all' will not be lost.
It is that simple. He is the one calling. He knows who will hear mercy and who will reject mercy and can shape us as he wills, based on foreknowing. This is just, right, and fair…not of works but of the One calling.
Yes, God will show mercy on whom he wills and whom he wills he will harden. How does God show mercy? He calls, seeking that which is lost. Whom he foreknows, he predestines to be shaped into the image of His Son, whom he predestinates, He calls: that is the message in Romans 8:28-30. God will never let go those that hear and understand.
God calls and displays his mercy to whoever he foresaw, foreknew would hear. He calls according to his purpose. Hearing is not a work, it is hearing. Hearing enables one to return back to God's will.
What is God's purpose - his will? To shape those that-hear back into the image of His Son, Jesus Christ. What is the image we lost in the Garden? - Reflecting God's nature and character to what was entrusted to us. What's the message of the New Testament?
God foreknows who will hear this call of mercy and who will reject it just as 1 Peter 1:2 points out. God will have mercy on whomever he will have mercy because it is his call that proves mercy is possible. God knows all things, always. He is God, proving himself God. God most merciful and kind, exercising true justice and judgment!
How shall I say it so it is clear to you? God ask one question, “Do you hear my mercy?” to all humanity. He knows our answer before we were ever born. “The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD.” Proverbs 16:33, [JPS] tells us.
The words translated 'whole disposing thereof' means the entire process of deciding a case, rightly, fairly, judiciously. An example of this is to cast your prayers, request, plans up to the Lord and he will rightly, fairly, judiciously, decide what is best for a person. Or you can even say that the Lord can also toss something in one's lap to test a person's heart.
In other words you can say for the example I am illustrating, that God cast a question, a lot, into our lap that begins the entire process deciding a case, rightly, fairly, and judiciously. Only God can do this.
More on this Subject to be continued:
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What about Pharaoh then — did not God harden him?
What about Pharaoh then — did not God harden him is a question posed by many. If you only focus on a single scripture theme, that is only what you will see. Focus on God's anger, wrath, and that is all you'll know. Only focus on God hardening Pharaohs heart, you'll miss how and why God hardens a heart, Romans 9:13-23.
Remember that through the very fall of humanity in the Garden of Eden all hearts are hard. This concept is important to recall regarding Pharaoh's heart. All have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God, or have you forgotten this? Pharaoh's heart was hard before God said he harden it in the Exodus account. God made cement into granite: More on this later.
Romans Chapter Nine cannot stand on its own. It must match all other scriptures on the same themes it proposes. Only by examining all scriptures of the same theme can you be sure of what it is really saying. It must hold with all scriptures that tell that people harden their own hearts without coercion, and in doing so, you will discover how and why God can harden hearts too.
If you do not do this as well as note the actual content of Romans Chapter Nine, you can spin-off into great error. Not understanding that through Abraham all nations will be blest, you will not comprehend God's plan of salvation that came through the children of Israel that God predestined before time began; and instead come to an unfocused perception of who God really is and how he truly acts.
Many stagnate when it comes to God hardening Pharaoh's heart and go no further exploring God's foreknowing, predestination, and call. They remain camped by the same mountain declaring, “God made sinners sin! Look at Pharaoh, God made his heart hard! He made the wicked-wicked so he can torment them in hell! Don't complain! How dare you complain — the pot has no right to complain to the master potter - you made me thus! Rejoice and be glad in this! Has not God said? I got chapter and verse!”
This line of thinking does not line up with God's nature and character which reveals His moral law: “Don't blame God when you are tempted! God cannot be tempted by evil, and he doesn't use evil to tempt others. We are tempted by our own desires that drag us off and trap us. Our desires make us sin, and when sin is finished with us, it leaves us dead. Don't be fooled, my dear friends. Every good and perfect gift comes down from the Father who created all the lights in the heavens. He is always the same and never makes dark shadows by changing.” James 1:13-17, CEV.
Romans 9:10-33 is describing something different than what many propose. Without God's call, Jacob would not have become Israel and Jesus never made manifest to humanity. Through Abraham all nations will be blest.
Romans 9:11 “...for [Rebecca's] children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of the One calling…” LITV
How often is this verse misused? You need to ask God, how does he elect — call out? When does God elect? Answer is before any of us were ever born or have done anything bad or good. God just knows who are his because He foresaw the need to call out his mercy to prove he is merciful to 'all' so some of the 'all' will not be lost.
It is that simple. He is the one calling. He knows who will hear mercy and who will reject mercy and can shape us as he wills, based on foreknowing. This is just, right, and fair…not of works but of the One calling.
Yes, God will show mercy on whom he wills and whom he wills he will harden. How does God show mercy? He calls, seeking that which is lost. Whom he foreknows, he predestines to be shaped into the image of His Son, whom he predestinates, He calls: that is the message in Romans 8:28-30. God will never let go those that hear and understand.
God calls and displays his mercy to whoever he foresaw, foreknew would hear. He calls according to his purpose. Hearing is not a work, it is hearing. Hearing enables one to return back to God's will.
What is God's purpose - his will? To shape those that-hear back into the image of His Son, Jesus Christ. What is the image we lost in the Garden? - Reflecting God's nature and character to what was entrusted to us. What's the message of the New Testament?
God foreknows who will hear this call of mercy and who will reject it just as 1 Peter 1:2 points out. God will have mercy on whomever he will have mercy because it is his call that proves mercy is possible. God knows all things, always. He is God, proving himself God. God most merciful and kind, exercising true justice and judgment!
How shall I say it so it is clear to you? God ask one question, “Do you hear my mercy?” to all humanity. He knows our answer before we were ever born. “The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD.” Proverbs 16:33, [JPS] tells us.
The words translated 'whole disposing thereof' means the entire process of deciding a case, rightly, fairly, judiciously. An example of this is to cast your prayers, request, plans up to the Lord and he will rightly, fairly, judiciously, decide what is best for a person. Or you can even say that the Lord can also toss something in one's lap to test a person's heart.
In other words you can say for the example I am illustrating, that God cast a question, a lot, into our lap that begins the entire process deciding a case, rightly, fairly, and judiciously. Only God can do this.
More on this Subject to be continued:
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-
-
-
B. W.
- Ultimate Member
- Posts: 8355
- Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:17 am
- Christian: Yes
- Location: Colorado
Continued...
Mercy Displayed:
God did not design one person to hear and another not to hear his call. He does not say, “You there will hear and go to heaven and you over there will not so I can damn you to hell.” God decided to ask a question so as not to leave 'all' lost. This says what about God? You can reject God's mercy or accept it. Sin remains the creatures own. How fair can God be? Yet, people still complain — why you made me thus?
How God shows mercy is neglected by many. Instead of looking at the entire bible to explain how God shows mercy, some just see a single ray of light and seek dominion with the light they see as the only way; thus, the faith of many can become shipwrecked. Am I wrecking your faith or increasing your faith to repent and return to the wonderful Lord God of all? A tree is known by its fruit.
Jeremiah 18:3-10 explains in detail how God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy, and will have compassion on whom He will have compassion. By responding to his voice and if they do not, he will harden what is already hard. God does not destroy the gift of reason. He will cement ones destiny according to how a person responds to his voice, that call of mercy from God's own heart. It is that simple. Have faith in God my friend. His yoke is easy and his burden light.
Ezekiel 18:23-31, “Do you think I enjoy seeing evil people die?" asks the Sovereign LORD. "No, I would rather see them repent and live.” GNB
Question: How can anyone honestly repent if never offered this choice by God? If God blissfully, or consciously, damns souls, or even picks to bless, why offer repentance at all? Or for that matter, offer a new heart and mind?
This is not to say that God cannot select or pick but rather point out that there is a judicious process involved with God's electing, selecting out from humanity. I am exploring the process. Others only see the result and not the process. Romans chapter Nine reveals the results and alludes to the process. Other parts of the bible reveal the process.
Ezekiel 18:23-31, “But if a righteous person stops doing good and starts doing all the evil, disgusting things that evil people do, will he go on living? No! None of the good he did will be remembered. He will die because of his unfaithfulness and his sins.
"But you say, 'What the Lord does isn't right.' Listen to me, you people. Do you think my way of doing things isn't right? It is your way that isn't right. When a righteous person stops doing good and starts doing evil and then dies, he dies because of the evil he has done.
“When someone evil stops sinning and does what is right and good, he saves his life. He realizes what he is doing and stops sinning, so he will certainly not die, but go on living. And you people say, 'What the Lord does isn't right.' You think my way isn't right, do you? It is your way that isn't right.
"Now I, the Sovereign LORD, am telling you people that I will judge each of you by what you have done. Turn away from all the evil you are doing, and don't let your sin destroy you. Give up all the evil you have been doing, and get yourselves new minds and hearts. Why do you people want to die?” GNB
Sum of the Matter:
What is sin? - Violation and transgressing God's moral Law. His moral law displays God's nature and character governing the universe. Transgressing this law, is misusing it to attain ones own dominion, rule, authority, no matter the mask self-will wears. God, because of who he is, calls out to everyone, repent!
Acts 17:30, “In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.” NIV
God calls all, not a few but all. It is out of the 'all' God searches the hearts of 'all' and seeks them that are lost. God foreknows beforehand who will repent because he simply foresaw who truly hears his call. This again proves God is all that He is, Fair, Just, Merciful, etc.
God calls 'all' because 'all' need to be called. Think on it for awhile: God indeed appoints those that believe from amongst the 'all.' Those that truly hear can be molded into the image of God's dear son, Jesus Christ. Without God's call, none could be molded back to God's true purposes.
In Acts13:48 it states that God appoints as many to eternal life based on what? Have you taken the time to search this out or instead take the easy path and declare, “don't ask questions, shut-up, you are damned if you are and you ain't if you ain't”
How many have been turned away from seeking Christ with such dominating attitudes? Seeking to defend God's honor, people instead twist it into something it is not.
Scripture defines scripture, a little here and a little there, line upon line and precept upon precept. Why, so we'll fall backwards, be caught, and snared so that we will repent of the error of our ways. Isaiah 28:9-13.
Both Acts 2:47 and Romans 10:8-17 reveals something on this matter that explains how God appoints. Let us look at these verses:
Acts 2:47, “And every day the Lord added to their group those who were being saved.” GNB
Rom 10:13-16, “For everyone, "whoever may call on the name of the Lord will be saved. [Joel 2:32] How then may they call on One into whom they have not believed? And how may they believe One of whom they have not heard? And how may they hear without preaching? And how may they preach if they are not sent? It has been written, "How beautiful" "the feet of those preaching the gospel of peace, of those preaching the gospel of good things [Isaiah. 52:7] But not all obeyed the gospel, for Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" [Isaiah 53:1] LITV
Rom 10:17, “Then faith is of hearing, and hearing through the Word of God.” LITV
God foresees, foreknows, who will repent and who will not because He is God. To be perfectly just and right, God calls out proving his mercy. Without his voice, his word, his logos, none could ever be granted salvation's new heart and renewed mind.
God has mercy on whom he will have mercy and others that reject God, reject from their own harden volition, that residue if you will - left over from the fall. God will reject and turn them over to a debased mind. Cemented to live in the dominion they desire and all its shameful consequences. This proves what about God? He hardens what is already foreknown to be hard.
Now Back to Pharaoh
To be Continued....
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Mercy Displayed:
God did not design one person to hear and another not to hear his call. He does not say, “You there will hear and go to heaven and you over there will not so I can damn you to hell.” God decided to ask a question so as not to leave 'all' lost. This says what about God? You can reject God's mercy or accept it. Sin remains the creatures own. How fair can God be? Yet, people still complain — why you made me thus?
How God shows mercy is neglected by many. Instead of looking at the entire bible to explain how God shows mercy, some just see a single ray of light and seek dominion with the light they see as the only way; thus, the faith of many can become shipwrecked. Am I wrecking your faith or increasing your faith to repent and return to the wonderful Lord God of all? A tree is known by its fruit.
Jeremiah 18:3-10 explains in detail how God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy, and will have compassion on whom He will have compassion. By responding to his voice and if they do not, he will harden what is already hard. God does not destroy the gift of reason. He will cement ones destiny according to how a person responds to his voice, that call of mercy from God's own heart. It is that simple. Have faith in God my friend. His yoke is easy and his burden light.
Ezekiel 18:23-31, “Do you think I enjoy seeing evil people die?" asks the Sovereign LORD. "No, I would rather see them repent and live.” GNB
Question: How can anyone honestly repent if never offered this choice by God? If God blissfully, or consciously, damns souls, or even picks to bless, why offer repentance at all? Or for that matter, offer a new heart and mind?
This is not to say that God cannot select or pick but rather point out that there is a judicious process involved with God's electing, selecting out from humanity. I am exploring the process. Others only see the result and not the process. Romans chapter Nine reveals the results and alludes to the process. Other parts of the bible reveal the process.
Ezekiel 18:23-31, “But if a righteous person stops doing good and starts doing all the evil, disgusting things that evil people do, will he go on living? No! None of the good he did will be remembered. He will die because of his unfaithfulness and his sins.
"But you say, 'What the Lord does isn't right.' Listen to me, you people. Do you think my way of doing things isn't right? It is your way that isn't right. When a righteous person stops doing good and starts doing evil and then dies, he dies because of the evil he has done.
“When someone evil stops sinning and does what is right and good, he saves his life. He realizes what he is doing and stops sinning, so he will certainly not die, but go on living. And you people say, 'What the Lord does isn't right.' You think my way isn't right, do you? It is your way that isn't right.
"Now I, the Sovereign LORD, am telling you people that I will judge each of you by what you have done. Turn away from all the evil you are doing, and don't let your sin destroy you. Give up all the evil you have been doing, and get yourselves new minds and hearts. Why do you people want to die?” GNB
Sum of the Matter:
What is sin? - Violation and transgressing God's moral Law. His moral law displays God's nature and character governing the universe. Transgressing this law, is misusing it to attain ones own dominion, rule, authority, no matter the mask self-will wears. God, because of who he is, calls out to everyone, repent!
Acts 17:30, “In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.” NIV
God calls all, not a few but all. It is out of the 'all' God searches the hearts of 'all' and seeks them that are lost. God foreknows beforehand who will repent because he simply foresaw who truly hears his call. This again proves God is all that He is, Fair, Just, Merciful, etc.
God calls 'all' because 'all' need to be called. Think on it for awhile: God indeed appoints those that believe from amongst the 'all.' Those that truly hear can be molded into the image of God's dear son, Jesus Christ. Without God's call, none could be molded back to God's true purposes.
In Acts13:48 it states that God appoints as many to eternal life based on what? Have you taken the time to search this out or instead take the easy path and declare, “don't ask questions, shut-up, you are damned if you are and you ain't if you ain't”
How many have been turned away from seeking Christ with such dominating attitudes? Seeking to defend God's honor, people instead twist it into something it is not.
Scripture defines scripture, a little here and a little there, line upon line and precept upon precept. Why, so we'll fall backwards, be caught, and snared so that we will repent of the error of our ways. Isaiah 28:9-13.
Both Acts 2:47 and Romans 10:8-17 reveals something on this matter that explains how God appoints. Let us look at these verses:
Acts 2:47, “And every day the Lord added to their group those who were being saved.” GNB
Rom 10:13-16, “For everyone, "whoever may call on the name of the Lord will be saved. [Joel 2:32] How then may they call on One into whom they have not believed? And how may they believe One of whom they have not heard? And how may they hear without preaching? And how may they preach if they are not sent? It has been written, "How beautiful" "the feet of those preaching the gospel of peace, of those preaching the gospel of good things [Isaiah. 52:7] But not all obeyed the gospel, for Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" [Isaiah 53:1] LITV
Rom 10:17, “Then faith is of hearing, and hearing through the Word of God.” LITV
God foresees, foreknows, who will repent and who will not because He is God. To be perfectly just and right, God calls out proving his mercy. Without his voice, his word, his logos, none could ever be granted salvation's new heart and renewed mind.
God has mercy on whom he will have mercy and others that reject God, reject from their own harden volition, that residue if you will - left over from the fall. God will reject and turn them over to a debased mind. Cemented to live in the dominion they desire and all its shameful consequences. This proves what about God? He hardens what is already foreknown to be hard.
Now Back to Pharaoh
To be Continued....
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B. W.
- Ultimate Member
- Posts: 8355
- Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:17 am
- Christian: Yes
- Location: Colorado
Happy Fourth of July, 2006!
Back to Pharaoh
Pharaoh hardened his own heart because it was already hard. Harden through sin, through the very fall of humanity in the Garden of Eden. It was hard to begin with. All have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God, or have you forgotten this?
God foresaw Pharaoh would harden is already hard heart as Exodus 8:32 reveals. Thus, God could harden this ruler's heart even more rock solid because God foreknew old Pharaoh would never respond to God's mercy know matter if God physically appeared and tapped danced on Pharaoh's forehead. Pharaoh would remain hard.
Thus, God has mercy and compassion on whom he wills and whom he wills he hardens. God hardens what is already hard: all have sinned — or have you forgotten this?
Never insert the definition of how humans define the word 'Will' used here or you will fail to see how God has mercy, compassion, and hardens. This Greek word in context with God's 'will,' means too judiciously resolve, intend, desire, and purposes something. This lines up with God's nature/character. Human 'will' does not.
Pharaoh was entrenched in his dominion, Exodus 5:2, Exodus5:23, And the people God purposed to set free were also entrenched in Pharaohs dominion, Exodus 6:9. Something had to be done to break this impasse. God proves he is in control and has true ultimate dominion.
Why did God do this? Exodus 7:1-5 explains why. God proves he can and will use the wicked for a day of punishment. God remains in control according to the dictates of his nature and character, totally expressed in exercising his will. In this, God reveals his attributes of fairness, etc.
How? God foreknew from the sea of humanity born and yet to be born that this one person would reject God's mercy/compassion, and made him Pharaoh, Exodus 9:15-17. God had a plan and can use those he foreknows to reveal his power — that the Lord God is in sovereign control governed by all God is.
God was judiciously fair and just turning Pharaohs heart hard because it was hard to begin with, as evidenced by Pharaoh refusing to listen to God's voice, as well as from the result of the fall of humanity in the Garden of Eden. God gave Pharaoh what he wanted even before he was ever born, cemented his lust for dominion in his heart so we can learn from the entire biblical example recorded in Exodus not to harden our hearts.
God foreknows all, he is just, fair, upright, does no wrong, his way are beyond our full comprehension. How dare we instruct God and say he damns to hell because he desires it according to his will! This line of thought violates God's own sovereign nature, moral law, and character. If this were the case then God has violated what Exodus 20:1-17 reveals by causing, predestining people to break his own laws. This is not righteous, or just, nor a true reflection of all who God is.
The story of Pharaoh does not imply or indicate that God blissfully selects one to be damned and another to be blest. It implies a deep knowledge that foreknows all things by simply knowing way beforehand who will hear His call and who will reject it. In this God remains faithful in how he designed free thinking beings entrusted with exercising the gift of dominion he gave and tests; thus, God can and does hold us all judiciously accountable. What we sow is what we reap.
When a person rejects God's call, his voice, his eternal logos, he will cement their desires rock hard. God foreknows they'll never repent. From this they'll remain, forever reminded that they do not have true dominion; eternally reminded that their moralistic dominion seeks only to supplant, and that it will never to acquiesce to God's true dominion. God is beyond doubt fair! More fair than you and I will ever be!
In this God proves himself again, great in wisdom, all powerful, just, and pure in all that he does. God truly knows all and from this foreknowing can predestine. This displays what about God's nature and character? Mighty is the Lord and greatly to be praised is He! Ecclesiastes 12:13-14
Please read Isaiah 45:4-13 again in context as it reveals God has true Dominion. God uses those that strive against their maker, uses those that manipulate, misuse, and twist God's nature and character in order to get away with exercising their own dominance. Who refuse to hear! Who shout: “What are you making God? You have no hands to make me, I am that I am!”
God will have the last laugh with people like that. Be not one of them, repent and return back to God. God is calling… The lot is now cast into your lap.
Next section soon to come entitled:
God's Call: Mercy Divine
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Back to Pharaoh
Pharaoh hardened his own heart because it was already hard. Harden through sin, through the very fall of humanity in the Garden of Eden. It was hard to begin with. All have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God, or have you forgotten this?
God foresaw Pharaoh would harden is already hard heart as Exodus 8:32 reveals. Thus, God could harden this ruler's heart even more rock solid because God foreknew old Pharaoh would never respond to God's mercy know matter if God physically appeared and tapped danced on Pharaoh's forehead. Pharaoh would remain hard.
Thus, God has mercy and compassion on whom he wills and whom he wills he hardens. God hardens what is already hard: all have sinned — or have you forgotten this?
Never insert the definition of how humans define the word 'Will' used here or you will fail to see how God has mercy, compassion, and hardens. This Greek word in context with God's 'will,' means too judiciously resolve, intend, desire, and purposes something. This lines up with God's nature/character. Human 'will' does not.
Pharaoh was entrenched in his dominion, Exodus 5:2, Exodus5:23, And the people God purposed to set free were also entrenched in Pharaohs dominion, Exodus 6:9. Something had to be done to break this impasse. God proves he is in control and has true ultimate dominion.
Why did God do this? Exodus 7:1-5 explains why. God proves he can and will use the wicked for a day of punishment. God remains in control according to the dictates of his nature and character, totally expressed in exercising his will. In this, God reveals his attributes of fairness, etc.
How? God foreknew from the sea of humanity born and yet to be born that this one person would reject God's mercy/compassion, and made him Pharaoh, Exodus 9:15-17. God had a plan and can use those he foreknows to reveal his power — that the Lord God is in sovereign control governed by all God is.
God was judiciously fair and just turning Pharaohs heart hard because it was hard to begin with, as evidenced by Pharaoh refusing to listen to God's voice, as well as from the result of the fall of humanity in the Garden of Eden. God gave Pharaoh what he wanted even before he was ever born, cemented his lust for dominion in his heart so we can learn from the entire biblical example recorded in Exodus not to harden our hearts.
God foreknows all, he is just, fair, upright, does no wrong, his way are beyond our full comprehension. How dare we instruct God and say he damns to hell because he desires it according to his will! This line of thought violates God's own sovereign nature, moral law, and character. If this were the case then God has violated what Exodus 20:1-17 reveals by causing, predestining people to break his own laws. This is not righteous, or just, nor a true reflection of all who God is.
The story of Pharaoh does not imply or indicate that God blissfully selects one to be damned and another to be blest. It implies a deep knowledge that foreknows all things by simply knowing way beforehand who will hear His call and who will reject it. In this God remains faithful in how he designed free thinking beings entrusted with exercising the gift of dominion he gave and tests; thus, God can and does hold us all judiciously accountable. What we sow is what we reap.
When a person rejects God's call, his voice, his eternal logos, he will cement their desires rock hard. God foreknows they'll never repent. From this they'll remain, forever reminded that they do not have true dominion; eternally reminded that their moralistic dominion seeks only to supplant, and that it will never to acquiesce to God's true dominion. God is beyond doubt fair! More fair than you and I will ever be!
In this God proves himself again, great in wisdom, all powerful, just, and pure in all that he does. God truly knows all and from this foreknowing can predestine. This displays what about God's nature and character? Mighty is the Lord and greatly to be praised is He! Ecclesiastes 12:13-14
Please read Isaiah 45:4-13 again in context as it reveals God has true Dominion. God uses those that strive against their maker, uses those that manipulate, misuse, and twist God's nature and character in order to get away with exercising their own dominance. Who refuse to hear! Who shout: “What are you making God? You have no hands to make me, I am that I am!”
God will have the last laugh with people like that. Be not one of them, repent and return back to God. God is calling… The lot is now cast into your lap.
Next section soon to come entitled:
God's Call: Mercy Divine
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B. W.
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God's Call: Mercy Divine
When reading Romans chapter Nine, it is important to keep it context with Romans chapters 8 through 12. Paul's quote of Malachi 1:1-3 also in context. In fact, Malachi chapters 1 through 4 help explain Romans chapters 8 through 12. A reading of both help clarify themes both speak of.
In Malachi 1:1-3, it states that God Hated Esau and loved Jacob. Please note, that when God hates something or someone there is a reason for this. It is not a blind selection, nor is it a reflection of human-centric notions of hate. It is a hate, despising, detestation that comes from foreknowing the end result of Esau and his descendents before the final outcome has been realized.
God despises, detest, hates those that misuse his name and character for their own dominating ends, Malachi 1:7-14, Malachi 2:1-6. Therefore, God hates, despises, those that impose their own dominance, self-will, in place of what was entrusted to them. Esau was one such person. Read his history found in Genesis for more details.
God hates those that are like Esau. God will exercise this hate in accordance to his character, and nature. This hate will show mercy, be just, demonstrate righteousness, exercise justice and judgment, it will be fair, and it takes a long time before it boils over into a stage of hot punishment.
God's hate shows mercy for many reasons. 2 Peter 3:2-12, states one; God foreknows that some will repent like Jacob and return to God. Speaking of Jesus in Malachi 2:4-9 and Malachi 3:1-6, the Lord reveals his call of mercy that will be displayed later through Jesus on a hill called Golgotha.
Those that hear, understand, and repent are like Jacob, whom God loves. Those that refuse to understand, hear, and refuse to repent are like Esau, whom God hates. God's mercy slows God's hate from taking unjust vengeance so that people are given a fair, even handed, just, righteous, chance to repent and return to the Lord. Why? God foresaw that because he calls, shows mercy — it proves that God is all He is through demonstration of his glorious nature that he is God perfect in all his ways.
The example from Romans reveals the same thing — two kinds of people. One, like Jacob who will receive a new nature and thus be God's own special people and the other like Esau sealed rock-hard in disapproval. The choice is still the creatures own even when God already knows the answer. He calls to all so all will be without excuse. God shows no partiality.
Look at Romans 9:11, Romans 9:15-16, Romans 9:18, Romans 9:22-26. These very verses back up what I am revealing. It is to our common shame that these verses have been misapplied so often throughout church history. Romans 9:16 sums it up nicely: “…but of God who shows mercy.” NKJV
This is revealed even within the pages of Genesis Chapter three: God's call: Mercy Divine.
Genesis 3:8-9, “…Late in the afternoon a breeze began to blow, and the man and woman heard the LORD God walking in the garden. They were frightened and hid behind some trees. The LORD called out to the man and asked, "Where are you?"” CEV
How can anyone return to God, unless God let's them know He is there, that God still exist? That he is God, one you can trust not to deny himself — A God of mercy, love, righteousness, justice, fairness, etc.
Adam and Eve heard the Lord walking, coming near, and hid. I wonder if they realized what they had done. They must of and hid, trying desperately to avoid the all seeing, all knowing, all powerful Lord God who hates sin, who said they'll die if they did what they both did.
Again, the act of hiding in and of itself is a way to maintain one's dominion over circumstances. Maybe if I hide long enough, God will just go away and leave me alone. This was not to be the case: “The LORD called out to the man and asked, "Where are you?” Gen 3:9 CEV
Have you ever pondered this: What would have happened if God refused to call out to Adam and Eve? God has that right. He definitely foresaw the fall, how sin hardens the heart; he should have hated and destroyed everything then and there. But would this have been really just for a perfect God to do? Destroy and remake in an unjust, unfair manner?
If God refused to call, we all would remain lost, damned, without hope and without God in this world. But God does indeed mercifully call, and still walks among humanity today. Will we stop hiding? Can you hear him calling?
You see, it is God's call of mercy to us that predestines one. It is not an arbitrary selection but rather a foreknowing selection. God designed humanity's to reason and think on-their-own. His call engages our reasoning intellect without any violation to how he made us. Truly in this, God proves He is fair. Even His questions to Adam reflect God's calls of mercy.
God knows all, if you will hear and respond or reject his call way before we were ever born or have done anything bad or good. He calls to all humanity because He is God proving He is the great I AM. “So then, everything depends, not on what we humans want or do, but only on God's mercy.” Rom 9:16, GNB
Without God's mercy to call out to us, none would or could ever be saved or even respond to his mercy. To Himself God remains true. God gave responsibility to humanity to respond to what God Himself foresaw was needed to prove Himself, loving, kind, just, fair, righteous, etc, to none other than Himself: His call — mercy divine!
From God's call, God can fashion humanity according to his divine plan as he knows who will hear and who will reject because he is God that knows all. Oh, the fairness and righteousness of God displayed in the independence of reason and thought!
Do not let sin harden your heart anymore. God is calling! - Wrestling with you right now! Do not let God go. It is his good pleasure to give you his kingdom but first, the seat, the hip of your power, dominance, is being broken so that you will learn to lean on God's staff, Jesus Christ and walk in newness of life.
Oh the anguish in your heart! The pain of your dominance wrecks havoc within your life! Its misery causes so much misery for you. Let it all go! Take hold of God! - The caretaker of your soul, Jesus Christ.
“Come let us reason together says the Lord…” Isaiah 1:16-20. NKJV
More to follow and conclude...
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God's Call: Mercy Divine
When reading Romans chapter Nine, it is important to keep it context with Romans chapters 8 through 12. Paul's quote of Malachi 1:1-3 also in context. In fact, Malachi chapters 1 through 4 help explain Romans chapters 8 through 12. A reading of both help clarify themes both speak of.
In Malachi 1:1-3, it states that God Hated Esau and loved Jacob. Please note, that when God hates something or someone there is a reason for this. It is not a blind selection, nor is it a reflection of human-centric notions of hate. It is a hate, despising, detestation that comes from foreknowing the end result of Esau and his descendents before the final outcome has been realized.
God despises, detest, hates those that misuse his name and character for their own dominating ends, Malachi 1:7-14, Malachi 2:1-6. Therefore, God hates, despises, those that impose their own dominance, self-will, in place of what was entrusted to them. Esau was one such person. Read his history found in Genesis for more details.
God hates those that are like Esau. God will exercise this hate in accordance to his character, and nature. This hate will show mercy, be just, demonstrate righteousness, exercise justice and judgment, it will be fair, and it takes a long time before it boils over into a stage of hot punishment.
God's hate shows mercy for many reasons. 2 Peter 3:2-12, states one; God foreknows that some will repent like Jacob and return to God. Speaking of Jesus in Malachi 2:4-9 and Malachi 3:1-6, the Lord reveals his call of mercy that will be displayed later through Jesus on a hill called Golgotha.
Those that hear, understand, and repent are like Jacob, whom God loves. Those that refuse to understand, hear, and refuse to repent are like Esau, whom God hates. God's mercy slows God's hate from taking unjust vengeance so that people are given a fair, even handed, just, righteous, chance to repent and return to the Lord. Why? God foresaw that because he calls, shows mercy — it proves that God is all He is through demonstration of his glorious nature that he is God perfect in all his ways.
The example from Romans reveals the same thing — two kinds of people. One, like Jacob who will receive a new nature and thus be God's own special people and the other like Esau sealed rock-hard in disapproval. The choice is still the creatures own even when God already knows the answer. He calls to all so all will be without excuse. God shows no partiality.
Look at Romans 9:11, Romans 9:15-16, Romans 9:18, Romans 9:22-26. These very verses back up what I am revealing. It is to our common shame that these verses have been misapplied so often throughout church history. Romans 9:16 sums it up nicely: “…but of God who shows mercy.” NKJV
This is revealed even within the pages of Genesis Chapter three: God's call: Mercy Divine.
Genesis 3:8-9, “…Late in the afternoon a breeze began to blow, and the man and woman heard the LORD God walking in the garden. They were frightened and hid behind some trees. The LORD called out to the man and asked, "Where are you?"” CEV
How can anyone return to God, unless God let's them know He is there, that God still exist? That he is God, one you can trust not to deny himself — A God of mercy, love, righteousness, justice, fairness, etc.
Adam and Eve heard the Lord walking, coming near, and hid. I wonder if they realized what they had done. They must of and hid, trying desperately to avoid the all seeing, all knowing, all powerful Lord God who hates sin, who said they'll die if they did what they both did.
Again, the act of hiding in and of itself is a way to maintain one's dominion over circumstances. Maybe if I hide long enough, God will just go away and leave me alone. This was not to be the case: “The LORD called out to the man and asked, "Where are you?” Gen 3:9 CEV
Have you ever pondered this: What would have happened if God refused to call out to Adam and Eve? God has that right. He definitely foresaw the fall, how sin hardens the heart; he should have hated and destroyed everything then and there. But would this have been really just for a perfect God to do? Destroy and remake in an unjust, unfair manner?
If God refused to call, we all would remain lost, damned, without hope and without God in this world. But God does indeed mercifully call, and still walks among humanity today. Will we stop hiding? Can you hear him calling?
You see, it is God's call of mercy to us that predestines one. It is not an arbitrary selection but rather a foreknowing selection. God designed humanity's to reason and think on-their-own. His call engages our reasoning intellect without any violation to how he made us. Truly in this, God proves He is fair. Even His questions to Adam reflect God's calls of mercy.
God knows all, if you will hear and respond or reject his call way before we were ever born or have done anything bad or good. He calls to all humanity because He is God proving He is the great I AM. “So then, everything depends, not on what we humans want or do, but only on God's mercy.” Rom 9:16, GNB
Without God's mercy to call out to us, none would or could ever be saved or even respond to his mercy. To Himself God remains true. God gave responsibility to humanity to respond to what God Himself foresaw was needed to prove Himself, loving, kind, just, fair, righteous, etc, to none other than Himself: His call — mercy divine!
From God's call, God can fashion humanity according to his divine plan as he knows who will hear and who will reject because he is God that knows all. Oh, the fairness and righteousness of God displayed in the independence of reason and thought!
Do not let sin harden your heart anymore. God is calling! - Wrestling with you right now! Do not let God go. It is his good pleasure to give you his kingdom but first, the seat, the hip of your power, dominance, is being broken so that you will learn to lean on God's staff, Jesus Christ and walk in newness of life.
Oh the anguish in your heart! The pain of your dominance wrecks havoc within your life! Its misery causes so much misery for you. Let it all go! Take hold of God! - The caretaker of your soul, Jesus Christ.
“Come let us reason together says the Lord…” Isaiah 1:16-20. NKJV
More to follow and conclude...
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B. W.
- Ultimate Member
- Posts: 8355
- Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:17 am
- Christian: Yes
- Location: Colorado
“Come let us reason together says the Lord…” Isaiah 1:16-20. NKJV
Malachi 1:3-5, “But Esau I have hated, and laid waste his mountains and his heritage for the jackals of the wilderness.” Even though Edom has said, “We have been impoverished, But we will return and build the desolate places,” Thus says the LORD of hosts: “They may build, but I will throw down; they shall be called the Territory of Wickedness, and the people against whom the LORD will have indignation forever. Your eyes shall see, And you shall say, 'The LORD is magnified beyond the border of Israel.” NKJV
When one reads this passage from Malachi and correlates it to Romans Chapter Nine it would be very wise to note that the 'All Knowing God' knows all things. God knows beforehand what independent minded beings will do and what they think before any being was ever created.
From this knowledge, God can conceive and plan from a vast reservoir of free minded beings so that He can prove who he is; that he is fair, just, merciful, righteous, caring, all powerful, etc. God knows that he must show mercy, call, out to this vast sea of beings to prove himself as he really is. From this, there will be those that reject and those that accept. Absolute fairness perfectly displayed.
From this, God foresees and knows who will reject his mercy, his call, misuse his own nature and character to justify getting away with sin [however temporary], and God knows who will accept his call, his mercy, and learn to reflect his Spirit, His nature, and character as God intended before any being came into existence. God does indeed test the heart.
Thus God can place them in groups in certain geographic locations of like minded souls so he can prove he is in control, not they. Malachi 1:3-5 actually points this out as does Romans chapter nine. Since God knows all things, he can harden hearts because individuals have already had harden their own hearts through sin.
Romans chapters 1 through 8 come before chapter nine. From these chapters we learn that it is men that suppress the truth in exchange for a lie. That people do not like to retain the knowledge of God and are turned over to a debased mind. Romans 2:5 reveal that we, the individual, harden our own impenitent hearts. These chapters go on to explain how this is so: that sin entered humanity through Adam's transgression and that all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God.
That is why, I keep pointing this out: we harden our own hearts. From this, God can justly, evenhandedly, harden hearts harder as he foresees and foreknows who will accept or reject his calls. God can soften hearts to hear too. It is his calling out to humanity based on foreknowing that predestines. God is not unjust nor is he arbitrary — He just knows.
This is brought out in Genesis regarding the historical history of the Jewish people. God selecting a group of people to reveal his nature and character displayed world wide so all nations, people, that do hear and understand will be blest.
Romans chapter 9 and 10 reflect this theme as does Malachi. It is God's call of Mercy that elects, fairly, righteously, with perfect justice, that is tried and refined with profound love, proving that God is all that He is, forever unchanging! Oh the greatness of the Glory of God! Praise God all you saints!
Now with this in mind, what would have happened if God never called and just left mankind alone? There would have been no Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, or Joseph as we know them today. No display of God's faithfulness, righteousness, love, or mercy. Justice would have lost all meaning.
We would all have been like Esau and Pharaoh and gone astray seeking our own personal dominion. God had to call because he is merciful! He proves himself through his call as he strolls amongst us today. God cannot deny himself! Praise be to God! This is revealed in Genesis chapter three.
Genesis 3:10, “So he said, “I heard Your voice in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; and I hid myself.” NKJV
Can you see from Adam's answer that salvation is not based on God's foreknowing how one chooses to answer God's call? We'll just make excuses. We have tasted dominion. We like it too much to let that kind of control slip away. We'll seek to blame another for our faults instead. We'll twist the truth to get out of a jam rather than surrender our control.
Even when God gave his people written ordinances inscribed in stone, we, like they, end up twisting these in subjugation to our concepts of what makes right and wrong dominion; thus, establish our own human righteousness over God's. Malachi also alludes to this by its many references that state “how have we defiled, profane, not honor God's name, etc.”
The heart is twisted, turning even God's own written words and revealed wisdom in order to establish human dominance without even knowing it! Job and his three comforters did so without realizing it as Job chapters 3 through Job 32:1-5 reveals until Job was confronted about his true sin.
Will we ever see God in the whirlwind of his nature and like Job cry out, “I have heard of You by the hearing ear, but now I my eye sees You. Therefore I abhor myself and repent in dust and ashes.” Job 42:5-6, NKJV. And can we, like Job, after seeing pray for our friends? Calvinist — Armenian — Catholic?
Proverbs 6:16-19 states that God hates a proud look. A proud look involves hubris of one's soul to take dominion and be one's own god — reflecting our nature and character as the measure of law, through scams, through sacrificing the innocent for personal gain, by devising cunning plans that end up justifying ones own style of living, lying to escape blame, and sowing discord amongst the brethren to gain some form of control.
Adam was naked, without God. God had to call to him again and again to cause him to see how naked he was. "How did you know you were naked?" God asked. "Did you eat any fruit from that tree in the middle of the garden?" Genesis 3:11 CEV
Therefore it is not how we answer that God foreknows that saves but rather it is how we surrender to his call, repent, that God foresees because He called! Without his call, he cannot predestine fairly. Without his call, none could repent. Without God's call, God would not be God and thus he would deny himself and all that he is.
His call is His work, not ours. Only a work of God can restore humanity and re-establishes faith fairly, justly, perfectly back into the heart of men and women. But remember, God test the heart. We must repent. God's call engages and enables the ability to repent. God even test our repentance to see if it is true.
Our repentance is to surrender to His call. Faith, loyalty, fidelity is re-established between those that hear God's call and God. Thus those that hear, the elect, learn by living process to reflect God's true nature and character back on earth demonstrated by mirroring God's nature and character where ever they are at in the here and now: shining this light first to family and friends, then in the work place and market, next in our own communities, and then to all.
Yes, the Lord God certainly knew Adam would fall and seek after his own dominance. The Lord of Host certainly could have destroyed humanity in one stroke but God cannot deny himself. He is merciful. God had a plan: Mercy Divine! Mercy enlists a response. What will yours be?
Acts 17:30, “In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him [Jesus Christ] from the dead." NIV
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Malachi 1:3-5, “But Esau I have hated, and laid waste his mountains and his heritage for the jackals of the wilderness.” Even though Edom has said, “We have been impoverished, But we will return and build the desolate places,” Thus says the LORD of hosts: “They may build, but I will throw down; they shall be called the Territory of Wickedness, and the people against whom the LORD will have indignation forever. Your eyes shall see, And you shall say, 'The LORD is magnified beyond the border of Israel.” NKJV
When one reads this passage from Malachi and correlates it to Romans Chapter Nine it would be very wise to note that the 'All Knowing God' knows all things. God knows beforehand what independent minded beings will do and what they think before any being was ever created.
From this knowledge, God can conceive and plan from a vast reservoir of free minded beings so that He can prove who he is; that he is fair, just, merciful, righteous, caring, all powerful, etc. God knows that he must show mercy, call, out to this vast sea of beings to prove himself as he really is. From this, there will be those that reject and those that accept. Absolute fairness perfectly displayed.
From this, God foresees and knows who will reject his mercy, his call, misuse his own nature and character to justify getting away with sin [however temporary], and God knows who will accept his call, his mercy, and learn to reflect his Spirit, His nature, and character as God intended before any being came into existence. God does indeed test the heart.
Thus God can place them in groups in certain geographic locations of like minded souls so he can prove he is in control, not they. Malachi 1:3-5 actually points this out as does Romans chapter nine. Since God knows all things, he can harden hearts because individuals have already had harden their own hearts through sin.
Romans chapters 1 through 8 come before chapter nine. From these chapters we learn that it is men that suppress the truth in exchange for a lie. That people do not like to retain the knowledge of God and are turned over to a debased mind. Romans 2:5 reveal that we, the individual, harden our own impenitent hearts. These chapters go on to explain how this is so: that sin entered humanity through Adam's transgression and that all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God.
That is why, I keep pointing this out: we harden our own hearts. From this, God can justly, evenhandedly, harden hearts harder as he foresees and foreknows who will accept or reject his calls. God can soften hearts to hear too. It is his calling out to humanity based on foreknowing that predestines. God is not unjust nor is he arbitrary — He just knows.
This is brought out in Genesis regarding the historical history of the Jewish people. God selecting a group of people to reveal his nature and character displayed world wide so all nations, people, that do hear and understand will be blest.
Romans chapter 9 and 10 reflect this theme as does Malachi. It is God's call of Mercy that elects, fairly, righteously, with perfect justice, that is tried and refined with profound love, proving that God is all that He is, forever unchanging! Oh the greatness of the Glory of God! Praise God all you saints!
Now with this in mind, what would have happened if God never called and just left mankind alone? There would have been no Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, or Joseph as we know them today. No display of God's faithfulness, righteousness, love, or mercy. Justice would have lost all meaning.
We would all have been like Esau and Pharaoh and gone astray seeking our own personal dominion. God had to call because he is merciful! He proves himself through his call as he strolls amongst us today. God cannot deny himself! Praise be to God! This is revealed in Genesis chapter three.
Genesis 3:10, “So he said, “I heard Your voice in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; and I hid myself.” NKJV
Can you see from Adam's answer that salvation is not based on God's foreknowing how one chooses to answer God's call? We'll just make excuses. We have tasted dominion. We like it too much to let that kind of control slip away. We'll seek to blame another for our faults instead. We'll twist the truth to get out of a jam rather than surrender our control.
Even when God gave his people written ordinances inscribed in stone, we, like they, end up twisting these in subjugation to our concepts of what makes right and wrong dominion; thus, establish our own human righteousness over God's. Malachi also alludes to this by its many references that state “how have we defiled, profane, not honor God's name, etc.”
The heart is twisted, turning even God's own written words and revealed wisdom in order to establish human dominance without even knowing it! Job and his three comforters did so without realizing it as Job chapters 3 through Job 32:1-5 reveals until Job was confronted about his true sin.
Will we ever see God in the whirlwind of his nature and like Job cry out, “I have heard of You by the hearing ear, but now I my eye sees You. Therefore I abhor myself and repent in dust and ashes.” Job 42:5-6, NKJV. And can we, like Job, after seeing pray for our friends? Calvinist — Armenian — Catholic?
Proverbs 6:16-19 states that God hates a proud look. A proud look involves hubris of one's soul to take dominion and be one's own god — reflecting our nature and character as the measure of law, through scams, through sacrificing the innocent for personal gain, by devising cunning plans that end up justifying ones own style of living, lying to escape blame, and sowing discord amongst the brethren to gain some form of control.
Adam was naked, without God. God had to call to him again and again to cause him to see how naked he was. "How did you know you were naked?" God asked. "Did you eat any fruit from that tree in the middle of the garden?" Genesis 3:11 CEV
Therefore it is not how we answer that God foreknows that saves but rather it is how we surrender to his call, repent, that God foresees because He called! Without his call, he cannot predestine fairly. Without his call, none could repent. Without God's call, God would not be God and thus he would deny himself and all that he is.
His call is His work, not ours. Only a work of God can restore humanity and re-establishes faith fairly, justly, perfectly back into the heart of men and women. But remember, God test the heart. We must repent. God's call engages and enables the ability to repent. God even test our repentance to see if it is true.
Our repentance is to surrender to His call. Faith, loyalty, fidelity is re-established between those that hear God's call and God. Thus those that hear, the elect, learn by living process to reflect God's true nature and character back on earth demonstrated by mirroring God's nature and character where ever they are at in the here and now: shining this light first to family and friends, then in the work place and market, next in our own communities, and then to all.
Yes, the Lord God certainly knew Adam would fall and seek after his own dominance. The Lord of Host certainly could have destroyed humanity in one stroke but God cannot deny himself. He is merciful. God had a plan: Mercy Divine! Mercy enlists a response. What will yours be?
Acts 17:30, “In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him [Jesus Christ] from the dead." NIV
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B. W.
- Ultimate Member
- Posts: 8355
- Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:17 am
- Christian: Yes
- Location: Colorado
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Repentance: what's that?
Repentance what does it mean? How does one repent? The biblical theological definition of repentance means to change one's mind for the better, change one's direction, to turn around, to think differently to achieve repentance which leads to fulfillment of life by returning to God.
The Webster's 1828 dictionary defines repentance this way: “In theology, to sorrow or be pained for sin, as a violation of God's holy law, a dishonor to his character and government, and the foulest ingratitude to a Being of infinite benevolence.”
God calls all to repent, change their ways, turn around, surrender one's dominion, return back to God and his ways, learn to think and be different than the way we once were. Unfortunately, not all will repent.
How does one repent? The answer is simple, stop relying on your own efforts and surrender to God's work that will save you to the uttermost. Jesus tells us how to repent in John 3:3, “Jesus answered and said to him, Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless a man is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” MKJV
You must be born of God's Spirit. When God made Adam, he blew into him the breath of life. To be born again implies God's Spirit being re-blown within you. God's Spirit will enable you to effectively repent, change your life, and amend your ways. John 16:7-15
John 3:6-8, “Humans give life to their children. Yet only God's Spirit can change you into a child of God. Don't be surprised when I say that you must be born from above. Only God's Spirit gives new life. The Spirit is like the wind that blows wherever it wants to. You can hear the wind, but you don't know where it comes from or where it is going.” CEV
To repent means to surrender to God's dominion and have that established within you. All our efforts at reforming our own ways fall short of God's Glory and instead ascertain our own dominion. You cannot repent of your own accord. Self works to please God only shows that you are relying on yourself and not God, who gives freely his Spirit to those who call upon Him in faith.
John 3:15-17, “Then everyone who [believes] has faith in the Son of Man will have eternal life. God loved the people of this world so much that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who has faith in him will have eternal life and never really die. God did not send his Son into the world to condemn its people. He sent him to save them! CEV
To repent is to believe in God's work on the cross, that holy display and call of God's mercy on a hill called Golgotha. To repent is to believe. The word 'believe' translated in verse fifteen is from the verbal form of the Greek noun 'faith'. It denotes faith in living action.
Faith means to trust, rely, depend; to have total confidence in someone or something that produces love, fidelity and loyalty. To believe in Jesus Christ means to trust, rely, and depend on what he did to save and not on your own self. To actively believe means also that a person actively learns fidelity, love, and loyalty to Christ Jesus during their earthly sojourn.
They learn to surrender their personal dominion in exchange for God's benevolent dominion ruling them and thus shine this where ever they have been assigned. They hear and understand the words of the kingdom and bear much fruit as Matthew 13:23 explains.
John 3:18-19, “No one who has faith in God's Son will be condemned. But everyone who doesn't have faith in him has already been condemned for not having faith in God's only Son. The light has come into the world, and people who do evil things are judged guilty because they love the dark more than the light. CEV
You see God calls out, “turn around come back to the light of life!” Repentance tests the heart. If you have faith in Jesus you will be changed and will have God's Spirit to give you new life, eternal life. If one has faith in their own dominion they will be condemned because their faith, love, fidelity, and loyalty are in their own dark ways, their own dominion. God shows no partiality.
John 3:20-21, “People who do evil hate the light and won't come to the light, because it clearly shows what they have done. But everyone who lives by the truth will come to the light, because they want others to know that God is really the one doing what they do.” CEV
Be not one of them who cannot surrender their darkness. Instead live by God's truth which displays God's dominion ruled and governed by God's infinite benevolence, nature and character.
Ephesians 2:8-10 also tells us how to repent plain and simple, “For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them” MKJV
It is time to repent. It is hour to believe in one who gave his life in exchange for yours so that your can now return back to God. Now is the second for you to decide your fate. Can you not see and hear God's call of mercy displayed on a hill called Golgotha?
Romans 10:9, “Because if you confess the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.” MKJV
Now is the moment… What will your answer be? Don't neglect and put it off any loner!
Romans 10:13, “Whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.” NKJV
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Repentance: what's that?
Repentance what does it mean? How does one repent? The biblical theological definition of repentance means to change one's mind for the better, change one's direction, to turn around, to think differently to achieve repentance which leads to fulfillment of life by returning to God.
The Webster's 1828 dictionary defines repentance this way: “In theology, to sorrow or be pained for sin, as a violation of God's holy law, a dishonor to his character and government, and the foulest ingratitude to a Being of infinite benevolence.”
God calls all to repent, change their ways, turn around, surrender one's dominion, return back to God and his ways, learn to think and be different than the way we once were. Unfortunately, not all will repent.
How does one repent? The answer is simple, stop relying on your own efforts and surrender to God's work that will save you to the uttermost. Jesus tells us how to repent in John 3:3, “Jesus answered and said to him, Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless a man is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” MKJV
You must be born of God's Spirit. When God made Adam, he blew into him the breath of life. To be born again implies God's Spirit being re-blown within you. God's Spirit will enable you to effectively repent, change your life, and amend your ways. John 16:7-15
John 3:6-8, “Humans give life to their children. Yet only God's Spirit can change you into a child of God. Don't be surprised when I say that you must be born from above. Only God's Spirit gives new life. The Spirit is like the wind that blows wherever it wants to. You can hear the wind, but you don't know where it comes from or where it is going.” CEV
To repent means to surrender to God's dominion and have that established within you. All our efforts at reforming our own ways fall short of God's Glory and instead ascertain our own dominion. You cannot repent of your own accord. Self works to please God only shows that you are relying on yourself and not God, who gives freely his Spirit to those who call upon Him in faith.
John 3:15-17, “Then everyone who [believes] has faith in the Son of Man will have eternal life. God loved the people of this world so much that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who has faith in him will have eternal life and never really die. God did not send his Son into the world to condemn its people. He sent him to save them! CEV
To repent is to believe in God's work on the cross, that holy display and call of God's mercy on a hill called Golgotha. To repent is to believe. The word 'believe' translated in verse fifteen is from the verbal form of the Greek noun 'faith'. It denotes faith in living action.
Faith means to trust, rely, depend; to have total confidence in someone or something that produces love, fidelity and loyalty. To believe in Jesus Christ means to trust, rely, and depend on what he did to save and not on your own self. To actively believe means also that a person actively learns fidelity, love, and loyalty to Christ Jesus during their earthly sojourn.
They learn to surrender their personal dominion in exchange for God's benevolent dominion ruling them and thus shine this where ever they have been assigned. They hear and understand the words of the kingdom and bear much fruit as Matthew 13:23 explains.
John 3:18-19, “No one who has faith in God's Son will be condemned. But everyone who doesn't have faith in him has already been condemned for not having faith in God's only Son. The light has come into the world, and people who do evil things are judged guilty because they love the dark more than the light. CEV
You see God calls out, “turn around come back to the light of life!” Repentance tests the heart. If you have faith in Jesus you will be changed and will have God's Spirit to give you new life, eternal life. If one has faith in their own dominion they will be condemned because their faith, love, fidelity, and loyalty are in their own dark ways, their own dominion. God shows no partiality.
John 3:20-21, “People who do evil hate the light and won't come to the light, because it clearly shows what they have done. But everyone who lives by the truth will come to the light, because they want others to know that God is really the one doing what they do.” CEV
Be not one of them who cannot surrender their darkness. Instead live by God's truth which displays God's dominion ruled and governed by God's infinite benevolence, nature and character.
Ephesians 2:8-10 also tells us how to repent plain and simple, “For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them” MKJV
It is time to repent. It is hour to believe in one who gave his life in exchange for yours so that your can now return back to God. Now is the second for you to decide your fate. Can you not see and hear God's call of mercy displayed on a hill called Golgotha?
Romans 10:9, “Because if you confess the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.” MKJV
Now is the moment… What will your answer be? Don't neglect and put it off any loner!
Romans 10:13, “Whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.” NKJV
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B. W.
- Ultimate Member
- Posts: 8355
- Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:17 am
- Christian: Yes
- Location: Colorado
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I'll be finishing this up soon. Before I do - any questions?
I hope this was clear enough. It's simple to look at the author and finisher of our Faith for answers by exploring how the Bible reveals God's Glory, [meaning] his nature, character, and all that he is. The bible does this in the revealing of his name, how he acts, what he permits and why, etc and etc.
So often we get stuck on single truths about God and his ways and fail to see he is deeper, vaster, wiser than we ever realized. A good test for doctrine is to measure it to how God reveals his nature, character, attributes, actions, etc. Will it hold up to God's standards of who he is?
So often we hold on to pet doctrines at the expense of letting go of the author and finisher of our faith. Please do not do this. There is the Doctrine of God, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. All others will line up to what they reveal. If not, what dominion do you seek to govern by?
Am I against doctrine? No - we need doctrine. It is for us to obey the bible, hold fast to what is good, test all things, even doctrine. We need to test whatever doctrine we adhere too - does it go against who God is or not. In this you'll discover true doctrine and the path to life: Jesus Christ.
One day we will all stand before God, when you see him, you'll then understand that He is...all that He is.... amen
I'll finish this discourse soon...
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I'll be finishing this up soon. Before I do - any questions?
I hope this was clear enough. It's simple to look at the author and finisher of our Faith for answers by exploring how the Bible reveals God's Glory, [meaning] his nature, character, and all that he is. The bible does this in the revealing of his name, how he acts, what he permits and why, etc and etc.
So often we get stuck on single truths about God and his ways and fail to see he is deeper, vaster, wiser than we ever realized. A good test for doctrine is to measure it to how God reveals his nature, character, attributes, actions, etc. Will it hold up to God's standards of who he is?
So often we hold on to pet doctrines at the expense of letting go of the author and finisher of our faith. Please do not do this. There is the Doctrine of God, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. All others will line up to what they reveal. If not, what dominion do you seek to govern by?
Am I against doctrine? No - we need doctrine. It is for us to obey the bible, hold fast to what is good, test all things, even doctrine. We need to test whatever doctrine we adhere too - does it go against who God is or not. In this you'll discover true doctrine and the path to life: Jesus Christ.
One day we will all stand before God, when you see him, you'll then understand that He is...all that He is.... amen
I'll finish this discourse soon...
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Last edited by B. W. on Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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B. W.
- Ultimate Member
- Posts: 8355
- Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:17 am
- Christian: Yes
- Location: Colorado
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Note--I made a minor edit to last few paragraphs to help clarify context a bit more...
Conclusion: Truly, God Violates Free Will
Is God a slave to man's free will? Bound never to violate humanities will so free? The answer would be NO. God is not bound to never violate free will. God is not a slave to this. Instead, he is all powerful and can control free will minded beings by letting them be free to make their own decisions and choices. In this, God is absolved from creating sin, violating his very nature, and thus denying himself.
To retain absolute control involves being able to control all things, even the free minded, and still reach the final goal one desires. You and I cannot do this. Only God has such power. From this, God can control and shape based on foreknowing what a being will do with this free mindedness given as a gift.
Therefore whom God foreknew, he predestines, whom he predestines — he calls. Without that call of mercy, none could ever be justified and glorified. It is God's call that engages the free minded to repent and return to God. God violated humanities free will with his call. People love darkness more than light. However, there will be those that hear and understand, Matthew 13:19-23, Romans 10:9-17 because they hear.
These God calls out as his elect and those that refuse God have selected their ideas of dominion over God. Herein is the test. Who amongst us will return to God on his terms? And who will not? It is that simple. God knows who will and who will not based solely on his decision to call out to all, so some of the all will be saved by his demonstrated mercy revealed on the hill Golgotha.
God's terms are to believe on Christ Jesus, become Born Again, and learn to be transformed into the image that reflects God's true nature and character during their earthly sojourn, here and now, wherever one has been assigned in the time allowed.
Some that have become born again have died moments after receiving God's call of mercy. They have entered Heaven's land. They did not have the opportunity to prove their faith on earth. Do not judge them as not saved. They believed and were taken to glory for God's own purposes we cannot fully comprehend.
However long we have on this earth, do not lose heart but stand strong in the faith. You have a purpose and that is to reflect God's nature and character first to yourself, then to your family, next to friends and neighbors, branching out later to your community, workplace, market, and then to even your own country.
It begins with you. What dominion do you desire to live by and shine? Some desire religious dominance over God the Father. Others desire their own dominion over the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. There are those that desire to supplant God the Holy Spirit's dominion with their own ideas of right and wrong, good and evil.
God's indwelling Holy Spirit teaches us how to truly shine God's benevolent, just, loving, kind, righteous, even handedness, and instructs us to correctly exercise true judgment in this dark world. God's call challenges our free will and in his mercy he violates it, perfectly.
Without this violation we would all remain lost and damned. God's call demands our response to either accept His mercy or reject it. In this, God will let you freely decide own your own who you will serve. Choose life.
His call makes this choice possible. Without it, we have none. God will not violate our ability to think and reason independently but he will violate our free will forcing this decision upon us fair and square. How? He calls; He shows mercy on that hill, Golgotha. What will your answer be to God's mercy? From this…
Whom the Lord has mercy, he will have mercy and who the Lord judicially hardens he hardens, seals them forever. May God break all our hard hearts so we can find the true meaning and purpose for our lives!
God calls out to everyone, everyday violating the free will of humanity, calling and providing the means to repent and change. What will be your response? God already knows but still ask: He is fair. Will you repent and learn to be changed by God's Spirit or remain as you are, lost, without hope and God in this dark world?
When you learn to change - it will first affect you, next your family and friends will be likewise affected. You have a purpose: Live shining the dominion of God's nature and character where ever you have been assigned. Why don't you start shining and stop whining?
God Bless you all!
I may add to this thread from time to time. Feel free now to post questions that I can answer if there is something not clear to you. Ask away... and Be blest!
If anyone ever tells you God will not violate man's free will, tell them about why Jesus came and you'll soon see God does violate free will, perfectly!
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Note--I made a minor edit to last few paragraphs to help clarify context a bit more...
Conclusion: Truly, God Violates Free Will
Is God a slave to man's free will? Bound never to violate humanities will so free? The answer would be NO. God is not bound to never violate free will. God is not a slave to this. Instead, he is all powerful and can control free will minded beings by letting them be free to make their own decisions and choices. In this, God is absolved from creating sin, violating his very nature, and thus denying himself.
To retain absolute control involves being able to control all things, even the free minded, and still reach the final goal one desires. You and I cannot do this. Only God has such power. From this, God can control and shape based on foreknowing what a being will do with this free mindedness given as a gift.
Therefore whom God foreknew, he predestines, whom he predestines — he calls. Without that call of mercy, none could ever be justified and glorified. It is God's call that engages the free minded to repent and return to God. God violated humanities free will with his call. People love darkness more than light. However, there will be those that hear and understand, Matthew 13:19-23, Romans 10:9-17 because they hear.
These God calls out as his elect and those that refuse God have selected their ideas of dominion over God. Herein is the test. Who amongst us will return to God on his terms? And who will not? It is that simple. God knows who will and who will not based solely on his decision to call out to all, so some of the all will be saved by his demonstrated mercy revealed on the hill Golgotha.
God's terms are to believe on Christ Jesus, become Born Again, and learn to be transformed into the image that reflects God's true nature and character during their earthly sojourn, here and now, wherever one has been assigned in the time allowed.
Some that have become born again have died moments after receiving God's call of mercy. They have entered Heaven's land. They did not have the opportunity to prove their faith on earth. Do not judge them as not saved. They believed and were taken to glory for God's own purposes we cannot fully comprehend.
However long we have on this earth, do not lose heart but stand strong in the faith. You have a purpose and that is to reflect God's nature and character first to yourself, then to your family, next to friends and neighbors, branching out later to your community, workplace, market, and then to even your own country.
It begins with you. What dominion do you desire to live by and shine? Some desire religious dominance over God the Father. Others desire their own dominion over the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. There are those that desire to supplant God the Holy Spirit's dominion with their own ideas of right and wrong, good and evil.
God's indwelling Holy Spirit teaches us how to truly shine God's benevolent, just, loving, kind, righteous, even handedness, and instructs us to correctly exercise true judgment in this dark world. God's call challenges our free will and in his mercy he violates it, perfectly.
Without this violation we would all remain lost and damned. God's call demands our response to either accept His mercy or reject it. In this, God will let you freely decide own your own who you will serve. Choose life.
His call makes this choice possible. Without it, we have none. God will not violate our ability to think and reason independently but he will violate our free will forcing this decision upon us fair and square. How? He calls; He shows mercy on that hill, Golgotha. What will your answer be to God's mercy? From this…
Whom the Lord has mercy, he will have mercy and who the Lord judicially hardens he hardens, seals them forever. May God break all our hard hearts so we can find the true meaning and purpose for our lives!
God calls out to everyone, everyday violating the free will of humanity, calling and providing the means to repent and change. What will be your response? God already knows but still ask: He is fair. Will you repent and learn to be changed by God's Spirit or remain as you are, lost, without hope and God in this dark world?
When you learn to change - it will first affect you, next your family and friends will be likewise affected. You have a purpose: Live shining the dominion of God's nature and character where ever you have been assigned. Why don't you start shining and stop whining?
God Bless you all!
I may add to this thread from time to time. Feel free now to post questions that I can answer if there is something not clear to you. Ask away... and Be blest!
If anyone ever tells you God will not violate man's free will, tell them about why Jesus came and you'll soon see God does violate free will, perfectly!
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B. W.
- Ultimate Member
- Posts: 8355
- Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:17 am
- Christian: Yes
- Location: Colorado
-
Let me add two more post - Post One - 7-31-06
The potter and the clay, pictures of truth the bible portrays. Romans Chapter Nine, Isaiah 64:8, Jeremiah 18:1-10 use this illustration. Yet for many, the depiction perceived from these scriptures are just a lump of clay on a potter's wheel being fashioned into good or bad clay vessels of usage for the potter. However, there is more to this picture than meets the eye as we shall soon see.
Viewing ourselves as lumps of clay on a spinning wheel misses the truth of Romans Chapter Nine. There is something else we fail to see. This blindness causes the message of Romans Chapter Nine to become a black and white picture of God's justice and sovereignty which ends up disfiguring the name, nature, and character of God.
The way Romans Chapter Nine is seen is this: God hardened Pharaoh Heart and thus makes the wicked — wicked for punishment. While others are spared for no apparent reason other than to decorate God's house with knickknacks for God's pleasure. This line of thought does not line up with other scriptures, Ezekiel 18:23, Psalm 9:16, Jonah 3:9-10. This alone should tell us there is more here than first meets the eye.
Before we look at what is missing, let us first look at where such line of thinking ultimately leads before we continue: The point still stands — believing in Christ for salvation, period. How does one believe?
Let's look at something. Is 'believing' having a complete full assurance a work of human will, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind? Does believing consist of 'running' translated in Romans 9:11 which E-Sword defines as — Runneth - word occurs in Greek writings denoting to incur extreme peril, which it requires the exertion of all one's effort to overcome?
Romans 9:11, “for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of the One calling, it was said to her, "The greater shall serve the lesser;" Gen. 25:23 even as it has been written, "I loved Jacob, and I hated Esau." Mal. 1:2, 3. What then shall we say? Is there not unrighteousness with God? Let it not be! For He said to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will pity whomever I will pity." Ex. 33:19. So, then, it is not of the one willing, nor of the one running, but of the One showing mercy, of God. LITV
This passage has been used to build a case that cannot stand in the light of other scriptures. Lets; look at this further.
According to text case here, which is out of context with rest of scripture, you could argue that any feeling you have, any work you do, regarding salvation is of mere human origin and cannot be trusted due to the desperately wicked heart of humans, Jeremiah 17:9.
If then was the case, salvation is based solely of God's selection, in which no one could ever be assured of. No feeling, no works, no deeds could assure us of salvation. If this was really the case, then the work Jesus did on the cross is of no effect as everything is based solely of God's selection.
The best you can do to be assured of salvation is live however you want because in the end God selects. Good works are pointless. Feelings and knowing(s) in the mind cannot be trusted. There is no way anyone can be assured of salvation. Only by death and afterwards would you know if you were one of God's elect! Thus, just hope that the hands of an ever kind providence have chosen you — live and let live.
If all is based on this type of selection, why did Jesus die on the cross? To save the elect only? How — when the elect cannot possibility know they were selected because the elect would be dependant upon their wills, mind, feelings of knowing assurance, deeds, works, and etc, which according to Romans Chapter Nine, one cannot trust!
Therefore, based on this type of logic about God's election's selection no one could ever be assured of salvation and the cross of Christ will have no purpose as there would be no logical reason Jesus had to come for Salvation as God just selects. Maybe God sent his son to just tell the elect they are the elect?
This cannot be either as the elect could not be certain — even the bible would be pointless. God selects — just hope he chose you as you cannot trust any human agency, feelings, assurances, even assurance perceived from coming heaven or the bible cannot be trusted as that is all part of him that wills and runs.
Why? Because God will have mercy on whomever he will have mercy, and will pity whomever He will pity, and harden whomever we wills and there is nothing to be assured about. You cannot trust anything — just hope you are selected.
NOW, I hope you can see how false this line of logic is and how it fly's in the face of all scriptures. Jesus tells us to believe in Him. Even Jeremiah 17:7, “Blessed is the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is.” KJV tells we can trust the Lord.
If you can trust, you believe, if you believed, you have faith in God's work; His call to all that will hear and understand what this belief and faith is all about: God's work calling us back into a relationship with himself for his service.
You can be assured of your salvation! You can believe! You do have responsibility! You can know the Lord! You can trust the sacrifice of Christ that was for all so some of the all can be saved. Those that are saved bear good fruit.
It is like what Jesus said in Luke 13:18-19:
Luke 13:18-19, “Jesus asked, "What is the Kingdom of God like? What shall I compare it with? It is like this. A man takes a mustard seed and plants it in his field. The plant grows and becomes a tree, and the birds make their nests in its branches." GNB
The seed is the word of God, His call — His dominion re-established within us, it is small but grows. It takes time to grow. The individual is affected by the word as it grows and as growth implies, in time one will change. A person will change from serving selfishness, sin, the ways of the world to reflecting what God is truly like as revealed by Christ Jesus' nature and character. Walk as He! 1 John 2:6-7, 1 John 4:21.
This takes time and within time, ones faith will grow larger so that others can find comfort in your shade and discover shelter and rest by your example of faith. Is that you? Are you growing? Maturing? Changing? Do others find rest and seek shelter by our living faith in God?
Luke 17:5-10, “The apostles said to the Lord, "Make our faith greater." The Lord answered, "If you had faith as big as a mustard seed, you could say to this mulberry tree, 'Pull yourself up by the roots and plant yourself in the sea!' and it would obey you. ”Suppose one of you has a servant who is plowing or looking after the sheep. When he comes in from the field, do you tell him to hurry along and eat his meal? Of course not! Instead, you say to him, 'Get my supper ready, then put on your apron and wait on me while I eat and drink; after that you may have your meal.' The servant does not deserve thanks for obeying orders, does he? It is the same with you; when you have done all you have been told to do, say, 'We are ordinary servants; we have only done our duty.' " - GNB
Are the birds coming to you to nest and rest in the faith like you shine? Or are does it scare them away? Are you busy tossing the mulberry trees out of other's lives by shining God's kingdom so they can find rest? Or turning people away from the faith that saves by tossing them away? What type of servants are we? A friend of God or not?
Continued below…
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Let me add two more post - Post One - 7-31-06
The potter and the clay, pictures of truth the bible portrays. Romans Chapter Nine, Isaiah 64:8, Jeremiah 18:1-10 use this illustration. Yet for many, the depiction perceived from these scriptures are just a lump of clay on a potter's wheel being fashioned into good or bad clay vessels of usage for the potter. However, there is more to this picture than meets the eye as we shall soon see.
Viewing ourselves as lumps of clay on a spinning wheel misses the truth of Romans Chapter Nine. There is something else we fail to see. This blindness causes the message of Romans Chapter Nine to become a black and white picture of God's justice and sovereignty which ends up disfiguring the name, nature, and character of God.
The way Romans Chapter Nine is seen is this: God hardened Pharaoh Heart and thus makes the wicked — wicked for punishment. While others are spared for no apparent reason other than to decorate God's house with knickknacks for God's pleasure. This line of thought does not line up with other scriptures, Ezekiel 18:23, Psalm 9:16, Jonah 3:9-10. This alone should tell us there is more here than first meets the eye.
Before we look at what is missing, let us first look at where such line of thinking ultimately leads before we continue: The point still stands — believing in Christ for salvation, period. How does one believe?
Let's look at something. Is 'believing' having a complete full assurance a work of human will, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind? Does believing consist of 'running' translated in Romans 9:11 which E-Sword defines as — Runneth - word occurs in Greek writings denoting to incur extreme peril, which it requires the exertion of all one's effort to overcome?
Romans 9:11, “for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of the One calling, it was said to her, "The greater shall serve the lesser;" Gen. 25:23 even as it has been written, "I loved Jacob, and I hated Esau." Mal. 1:2, 3. What then shall we say? Is there not unrighteousness with God? Let it not be! For He said to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will pity whomever I will pity." Ex. 33:19. So, then, it is not of the one willing, nor of the one running, but of the One showing mercy, of God. LITV
This passage has been used to build a case that cannot stand in the light of other scriptures. Lets; look at this further.
According to text case here, which is out of context with rest of scripture, you could argue that any feeling you have, any work you do, regarding salvation is of mere human origin and cannot be trusted due to the desperately wicked heart of humans, Jeremiah 17:9.
If then was the case, salvation is based solely of God's selection, in which no one could ever be assured of. No feeling, no works, no deeds could assure us of salvation. If this was really the case, then the work Jesus did on the cross is of no effect as everything is based solely of God's selection.
The best you can do to be assured of salvation is live however you want because in the end God selects. Good works are pointless. Feelings and knowing(s) in the mind cannot be trusted. There is no way anyone can be assured of salvation. Only by death and afterwards would you know if you were one of God's elect! Thus, just hope that the hands of an ever kind providence have chosen you — live and let live.
If all is based on this type of selection, why did Jesus die on the cross? To save the elect only? How — when the elect cannot possibility know they were selected because the elect would be dependant upon their wills, mind, feelings of knowing assurance, deeds, works, and etc, which according to Romans Chapter Nine, one cannot trust!
Therefore, based on this type of logic about God's election's selection no one could ever be assured of salvation and the cross of Christ will have no purpose as there would be no logical reason Jesus had to come for Salvation as God just selects. Maybe God sent his son to just tell the elect they are the elect?
This cannot be either as the elect could not be certain — even the bible would be pointless. God selects — just hope he chose you as you cannot trust any human agency, feelings, assurances, even assurance perceived from coming heaven or the bible cannot be trusted as that is all part of him that wills and runs.
Why? Because God will have mercy on whomever he will have mercy, and will pity whomever He will pity, and harden whomever we wills and there is nothing to be assured about. You cannot trust anything — just hope you are selected.
NOW, I hope you can see how false this line of logic is and how it fly's in the face of all scriptures. Jesus tells us to believe in Him. Even Jeremiah 17:7, “Blessed is the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is.” KJV tells we can trust the Lord.
If you can trust, you believe, if you believed, you have faith in God's work; His call to all that will hear and understand what this belief and faith is all about: God's work calling us back into a relationship with himself for his service.
You can be assured of your salvation! You can believe! You do have responsibility! You can know the Lord! You can trust the sacrifice of Christ that was for all so some of the all can be saved. Those that are saved bear good fruit.
It is like what Jesus said in Luke 13:18-19:
Luke 13:18-19, “Jesus asked, "What is the Kingdom of God like? What shall I compare it with? It is like this. A man takes a mustard seed and plants it in his field. The plant grows and becomes a tree, and the birds make their nests in its branches." GNB
The seed is the word of God, His call — His dominion re-established within us, it is small but grows. It takes time to grow. The individual is affected by the word as it grows and as growth implies, in time one will change. A person will change from serving selfishness, sin, the ways of the world to reflecting what God is truly like as revealed by Christ Jesus' nature and character. Walk as He! 1 John 2:6-7, 1 John 4:21.
This takes time and within time, ones faith will grow larger so that others can find comfort in your shade and discover shelter and rest by your example of faith. Is that you? Are you growing? Maturing? Changing? Do others find rest and seek shelter by our living faith in God?
Luke 17:5-10, “The apostles said to the Lord, "Make our faith greater." The Lord answered, "If you had faith as big as a mustard seed, you could say to this mulberry tree, 'Pull yourself up by the roots and plant yourself in the sea!' and it would obey you. ”Suppose one of you has a servant who is plowing or looking after the sheep. When he comes in from the field, do you tell him to hurry along and eat his meal? Of course not! Instead, you say to him, 'Get my supper ready, then put on your apron and wait on me while I eat and drink; after that you may have your meal.' The servant does not deserve thanks for obeying orders, does he? It is the same with you; when you have done all you have been told to do, say, 'We are ordinary servants; we have only done our duty.' " - GNB
Are the birds coming to you to nest and rest in the faith like you shine? Or are does it scare them away? Are you busy tossing the mulberry trees out of other's lives by shining God's kingdom so they can find rest? Or turning people away from the faith that saves by tossing them away? What type of servants are we? A friend of God or not?
Continued below…
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B. W.
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Post Two - 7-31-06 — Read Post one Above
Now in the light of what was just written:
How and when does God harden the heart? Romans 1:18-32 reveals that God gave people over to do what they want because of their own preferences — or as the CEV version puts it — “God let these people go their own way' and 'God let them follow their own evil desires.” It does not mean God makes people, nor manipulates people to sin and live in sin so He can punish them. God gives up people to uncleanness, sin, because he foresaw that is what they desire above all else.
Likewise, Pharaoh's heart was previously hard through humanities sin nature before God hardened it further in the Exodus account. God harden because Pharaoh's heart was already hard by the mere fact that Pharaoh, like you or me, were already born into sin. God knows all things even the thoughts and intents of one's heart before we were ever born. That is superior foreknowledge far above what we can fully fathom.
What happens when reading Romans 9:11 and Romans 9:16 are that only the words translated as 'works,' 'wills', and 'runneth' are focused on. The words in verse 11 —'call' and 'shows mercy' in verse 16 are not even considered as an option. The fear of human works and deeds for salvation are so great that nothing else can be seen. The picture becomes blurred and God is no longer seen as He truly is: warning, calling, pleading, shining truth before he shapes the clay on the wheel.
What about it then? Yes, no one can work, or wills, or runneth can earn God's salvation. No one can choose God unless there was a choice offered by God. God knows everything. He is all knowing. He knew us before we all were ever born and had done anything bad or good and that through Adam sin would enter the world. He foresaw Jacob, Abraham, Isaac, would be just as Esau and Pharaoh would be — lost in sin, hard of heart, without hope and God in this world — unless He demonstrated his mercy, show mercy i.e. call to people and make himself known all would be lost. Isaiah 45:21-22
God's love is like that — showing mercy, displaying justice, proving righteousness, giving a choice to fallen mankind before anyone was even born. This choice proves God's fairness, his even handedness, that he and his love are real. Again, it is God offering a gift to humanity and asks: choose this day whom you'll serve! Choose life!
No one could choose if God did not make that choice possible. We have a responsibility given by God to choose. Yes, God had to violate human free will with this choice to prove He is the great I Am and all that He is.
Without freedom, there can be no agape love. God's nature is one that loves in the realm of agape. God gives freedom because he loves; love is not selfish; it gives. For God not to grant humanity the ability to think and reason independently would prove that God is not true to his nature of love. He fashioned mankind with the ability to decide, think, and to be responsible for what they do. Love allows this as it is not selfish, rude, etc, 1 Corinthians 13:4-7. If not, God would fail being God that loves with perfect love.
God foresaw that due solely to his call and mercy some will hear and understand and that others would not. A selfish god would not permit this. A rude god would rule by sovereign force. An unkind god would select, elect, un-judicially. A god such as this would be guilty of sin and causing evil, which is not in accord to the true nature and character of God that sins not and acts righteously, whose ways are perfect.
From His superior foreknowing God can shape and mold us all. God's love shapes fairly and justly. God judiciously elects and selects based on foreknowing all things. Sin remains the creatures own doing and God with true all powerful sovereignty provides the fair means to rid it from creation: by a call, show of mercy. Leave out the call and showing mercy, you have not the God of the bible but only a god wrath, hate, vengeance, who is partial and cruel.
When Romans 9:11,16 tells us that is not him that wills, works, or runs it is not implying that the choice God gave to humanity involves any human works, wills, or human runnething. What it means is that it is of God's own initiative to call and display mercy. We can do nothing unless God speaks calls, shows mercy, warns, and in doing so, engages human responsibility to accept or reject the mercy displayed with the justice of love. That is how He shows mercy on whom He wills.
We are responsible for how we hear. God already knows the answer but we do not. If a person God foresaw rejecting his call, he can make them a Pharaoh or an Esau along as in doing so has a divine purpose like the bible proves. Both Esau and Pharaoh served higher purposes as I mentioned in my prior writings. Pharaoh and Esau rejected God's call. Isaiah 55:7
God created and thus fashioned a choice. God's choice is what is implied Romans Chapter Nine. God foreknowing the final verdict of a person's life beforehand is what is being conveyed within its text. The bible elsewhere testifies that God engages humanity and seeks those that he foreknows would hear and understand.
What else can make this clear to you? Choice is impossible without God. God knows all things. Because God knows all, He certainly knows who will be his and who will be not based on his calling out; that just and perfect process involved in electing and selecting.
That is the message of Romans Chapter Nine. Jeremiah 18 speaks of the same thing in the story of the potter. Without the arms and hands of the potter reaching forth to the lump of clay there could be no vessels made. The clay is from he same lump: all have sinned. Stop seeing only the wheel and clay upon it — look at the potter. See how the clay is prepared by the potter before the wheel can ever be applied.
The bible prophetically describes Jesus as the saving arm of God, God's hands that save, Isaiah 59:16-21, Isaiah 64:6-8, Isaiah 50:2. Jesus demonstrated God's mercy and the Holy Spirit changes, John 16:7-16. The hands and arms of the potter are Jesus and God the Holy Spirit. Jesus you can say allegorically is the right arm of God and the Holy Spirit the left reaching out towards the lump of clay called humanity. God the Father is the Potter shouting to the clay words of merciful warnings, teachings, and shining beams of light upon it, Daniel 12:3 — note the word 'shine - 2094 Strong's Number' used here.
This lump is fallen, filled with sin but still the potter, God the Father calls out his warnings and instructions to repent, then reaches towards humanity with His right hand, Jesus Christ, demonstrating his mercy and by his left hand, the Holy Spirit to fashion change. The clay can now be shaped as it has been prepared.
You see, the potter must first prepare the lump to be shaped before it can be used and put upon the wheel. Water is added too or removed from the lump of clay then the clay kneaded before the spinning wheel can be applied. This preparation involves foreknowing what's in the clay.
As the book of Jeremiah 18:5-10 says, “Then the word of the LORD came to me: "O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter does?" declares the LORD, "Like clay in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel. If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it.” NIV
God calls, he warns, he shows mercy to all but not all will accept his mercy, nor desire to be change by God's Spirit, thus he shapes the clay according to how each particle responds to his words as he foreknew they would and his hands reach forth a shapes accordingly.
God speaks to the clay before shaping it. That is the message of Jeremiah 18:1-10, Isaiah 64:6-10, Isaiah 45 — God calls, speaks to the clay, warns! Admonishes! Instructs! Applies water, (John 16:8-9, John 4:14) and kneads (John 3:17-21, Romans 6:23) the clay before it reaches the wheel. If they refuse and rebel they will perish. God is astoundingly even handed and fair!
God will not break his own laws and nor will God cause, manipulate, people to rebel and sin either. To do so says what about God? If God cannot keep his word, then would he still be God? In the design of man, God's love grants people freedom even at the risk of them abusing it, love still gives. When abuse occurs, God is still sovereigntly all powerful to maintain control. In this, his mercy reaches for you and I, calling, warning, pleading for us to return to such a wonderful Lord God of all.
Therefore, Pharaoh was warned and would not let God's people go and was destroyed. Esau and those like him refuse to hear God's words that reveal who He is and reject being shaped by God's loving hands and are thus rejected by God. How about you? It is not too late. God is calling, return to the Lord! He is calling! His hands are kneading and watering you souls! Repent! Return to God!
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Now in the light of what was just written:
How and when does God harden the heart? Romans 1:18-32 reveals that God gave people over to do what they want because of their own preferences — or as the CEV version puts it — “God let these people go their own way' and 'God let them follow their own evil desires.” It does not mean God makes people, nor manipulates people to sin and live in sin so He can punish them. God gives up people to uncleanness, sin, because he foresaw that is what they desire above all else.
Likewise, Pharaoh's heart was previously hard through humanities sin nature before God hardened it further in the Exodus account. God harden because Pharaoh's heart was already hard by the mere fact that Pharaoh, like you or me, were already born into sin. God knows all things even the thoughts and intents of one's heart before we were ever born. That is superior foreknowledge far above what we can fully fathom.
What happens when reading Romans 9:11 and Romans 9:16 are that only the words translated as 'works,' 'wills', and 'runneth' are focused on. The words in verse 11 —'call' and 'shows mercy' in verse 16 are not even considered as an option. The fear of human works and deeds for salvation are so great that nothing else can be seen. The picture becomes blurred and God is no longer seen as He truly is: warning, calling, pleading, shining truth before he shapes the clay on the wheel.
What about it then? Yes, no one can work, or wills, or runneth can earn God's salvation. No one can choose God unless there was a choice offered by God. God knows everything. He is all knowing. He knew us before we all were ever born and had done anything bad or good and that through Adam sin would enter the world. He foresaw Jacob, Abraham, Isaac, would be just as Esau and Pharaoh would be — lost in sin, hard of heart, without hope and God in this world — unless He demonstrated his mercy, show mercy i.e. call to people and make himself known all would be lost. Isaiah 45:21-22
God's love is like that — showing mercy, displaying justice, proving righteousness, giving a choice to fallen mankind before anyone was even born. This choice proves God's fairness, his even handedness, that he and his love are real. Again, it is God offering a gift to humanity and asks: choose this day whom you'll serve! Choose life!
No one could choose if God did not make that choice possible. We have a responsibility given by God to choose. Yes, God had to violate human free will with this choice to prove He is the great I Am and all that He is.
Without freedom, there can be no agape love. God's nature is one that loves in the realm of agape. God gives freedom because he loves; love is not selfish; it gives. For God not to grant humanity the ability to think and reason independently would prove that God is not true to his nature of love. He fashioned mankind with the ability to decide, think, and to be responsible for what they do. Love allows this as it is not selfish, rude, etc, 1 Corinthians 13:4-7. If not, God would fail being God that loves with perfect love.
God foresaw that due solely to his call and mercy some will hear and understand and that others would not. A selfish god would not permit this. A rude god would rule by sovereign force. An unkind god would select, elect, un-judicially. A god such as this would be guilty of sin and causing evil, which is not in accord to the true nature and character of God that sins not and acts righteously, whose ways are perfect.
From His superior foreknowing God can shape and mold us all. God's love shapes fairly and justly. God judiciously elects and selects based on foreknowing all things. Sin remains the creatures own doing and God with true all powerful sovereignty provides the fair means to rid it from creation: by a call, show of mercy. Leave out the call and showing mercy, you have not the God of the bible but only a god wrath, hate, vengeance, who is partial and cruel.
When Romans 9:11,16 tells us that is not him that wills, works, or runs it is not implying that the choice God gave to humanity involves any human works, wills, or human runnething. What it means is that it is of God's own initiative to call and display mercy. We can do nothing unless God speaks calls, shows mercy, warns, and in doing so, engages human responsibility to accept or reject the mercy displayed with the justice of love. That is how He shows mercy on whom He wills.
We are responsible for how we hear. God already knows the answer but we do not. If a person God foresaw rejecting his call, he can make them a Pharaoh or an Esau along as in doing so has a divine purpose like the bible proves. Both Esau and Pharaoh served higher purposes as I mentioned in my prior writings. Pharaoh and Esau rejected God's call. Isaiah 55:7
God created and thus fashioned a choice. God's choice is what is implied Romans Chapter Nine. God foreknowing the final verdict of a person's life beforehand is what is being conveyed within its text. The bible elsewhere testifies that God engages humanity and seeks those that he foreknows would hear and understand.
What else can make this clear to you? Choice is impossible without God. God knows all things. Because God knows all, He certainly knows who will be his and who will be not based on his calling out; that just and perfect process involved in electing and selecting.
That is the message of Romans Chapter Nine. Jeremiah 18 speaks of the same thing in the story of the potter. Without the arms and hands of the potter reaching forth to the lump of clay there could be no vessels made. The clay is from he same lump: all have sinned. Stop seeing only the wheel and clay upon it — look at the potter. See how the clay is prepared by the potter before the wheel can ever be applied.
The bible prophetically describes Jesus as the saving arm of God, God's hands that save, Isaiah 59:16-21, Isaiah 64:6-8, Isaiah 50:2. Jesus demonstrated God's mercy and the Holy Spirit changes, John 16:7-16. The hands and arms of the potter are Jesus and God the Holy Spirit. Jesus you can say allegorically is the right arm of God and the Holy Spirit the left reaching out towards the lump of clay called humanity. God the Father is the Potter shouting to the clay words of merciful warnings, teachings, and shining beams of light upon it, Daniel 12:3 — note the word 'shine - 2094 Strong's Number' used here.
This lump is fallen, filled with sin but still the potter, God the Father calls out his warnings and instructions to repent, then reaches towards humanity with His right hand, Jesus Christ, demonstrating his mercy and by his left hand, the Holy Spirit to fashion change. The clay can now be shaped as it has been prepared.
You see, the potter must first prepare the lump to be shaped before it can be used and put upon the wheel. Water is added too or removed from the lump of clay then the clay kneaded before the spinning wheel can be applied. This preparation involves foreknowing what's in the clay.
As the book of Jeremiah 18:5-10 says, “Then the word of the LORD came to me: "O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter does?" declares the LORD, "Like clay in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel. If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it.” NIV
God calls, he warns, he shows mercy to all but not all will accept his mercy, nor desire to be change by God's Spirit, thus he shapes the clay according to how each particle responds to his words as he foreknew they would and his hands reach forth a shapes accordingly.
God speaks to the clay before shaping it. That is the message of Jeremiah 18:1-10, Isaiah 64:6-10, Isaiah 45 — God calls, speaks to the clay, warns! Admonishes! Instructs! Applies water, (John 16:8-9, John 4:14) and kneads (John 3:17-21, Romans 6:23) the clay before it reaches the wheel. If they refuse and rebel they will perish. God is astoundingly even handed and fair!
God will not break his own laws and nor will God cause, manipulate, people to rebel and sin either. To do so says what about God? If God cannot keep his word, then would he still be God? In the design of man, God's love grants people freedom even at the risk of them abusing it, love still gives. When abuse occurs, God is still sovereigntly all powerful to maintain control. In this, his mercy reaches for you and I, calling, warning, pleading for us to return to such a wonderful Lord God of all.
Therefore, Pharaoh was warned and would not let God's people go and was destroyed. Esau and those like him refuse to hear God's words that reveal who He is and reject being shaped by God's loving hands and are thus rejected by God. How about you? It is not too late. God is calling, return to the Lord! He is calling! His hands are kneading and watering you souls! Repent! Return to God!
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madscientist
- Valued Member
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Yes but wouldnt this be different if the person had different personality (something inherited - in genes), different surroundings, people around him, etc? Although this is the only thing that seems to be 100% fair - that God already knows who will sin and who wont, isnt it true that ALL people would do the same in the same situation?B. W. wrote:Post Two - 7-31-06 – Read Post one Above
We are responsible for how we hear. God already knows the answer but we do not. If a person God foresaw rejecting his call, he can make them a Pharaoh or an Esau along as in doing so has a divine purpose like the bible proves. Both Esau and Pharaoh served higher purposes as I mentioned in my prior writings. Pharaoh and Esau rejected God’s call. Isaiah 55:7
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Eg with Adam and Eve - what if Adam and Eve had different souls - those of different people, would they sin? If everything was exactly the same, surroundings, same brains, etc but the souls of people were different would they sin? If yes then theres no free will, if no then there is free will. But... are not all souls equal in way of thinkong etc, completely free? What if I were Adam or Eve? Would I sin? I would have a choice, but would I sin? Is there a definite question to that? (Assuming everything would remain the same, including how id look like etc) but all that would be different would be that I would be one of them (not mentuoning who writes this reply but everyone asking themselves). Are all souls identical in ways of thinking etc or not? BTW another question that bothers me a lot. (Relates to "Not evryone has same opportunity to do good/evil" which is also 1 of my posts). Helpful if someone cud help on ths pls...
Or is it more or less random - you can be lucky to do evil/good, eg if the situation was repeated again, with Adam and Eve having the same souls - being the same people etc, and everything were the same they wouldnt necessarily have to do sin?
What seems UNFAIR - that only two people were given the choice to be first sinners etc. AND, MOST PROBABLY, many people would have sinned, given the opportunity, but the fact they have never been given the opportunity to be Adam or Eve, we dont consider them as potentially evil, simply because of not been given the opportunity to do such big sins. Or people like Hitler Stalin etc - we say they were extremely evil because they were given the opportunity to be so. Havent they been gven the opportiunuty from God (or ppl surroundign them eg theyd be shot at age of 3) they wouldnt be evil? That is just UNFAIR! Just realize how many people WOULD be so evil or even more, if given the opportunity - but since they are not they dont do the sins. FAir? NO!!!
So is this way of approach actually correct?