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Re: A response to the "No Death Before the Fall" artic

Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 9:53 pm
by Robert Byers
BavarianWheels wrote:
Robert Byers wrote:Bavarianwheels
Not just man but all living things with breath or spirit. No animals or insects could die before the fall. They were perfect in a perfect world. Death was brought by mans rebellion and not a natural thing. The bible is clear animals only ate plants implying they would not eat each other.

Yes the tree of life was real. This is clear from scripture and that real efferts had to be made to keep folk from eating and living forever. On earth or spirtually. I guess it could nullify the eating of the fruit.
Robert bYers
Wasn't it Satan's fall that really brought death...who knows how much "time" went by after this to Adam's day. Death came to man through Adam's sin, but death already existed through Satan's sin.

I believe the "tree" was real...my question is rather if the "tree" itself was the giver of eternal life or rather a symbol of taking the gift of life from God.
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Oh. The tre otherwise no need to stop munching on it.
Nope . Only Adam was the reason for death and decay. The bible does not say Satan fell before his conversation with Adam. He may of been still not thrown down. In fact Revealation, to me, seems to indicate there was a war between Satan and Michael the angel that brought down satan and company. In fact it says one third of the stars fell to earth. I have thought this might mean that a third of the stars actually fell toward earth and were the place where the great impacts on earth come from. The stars turned off or swated away before hitting earth but some secondary damage.
Robert Byers

Re: A response to the "No Death Before the Fall" artic

Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 9:56 pm
by B. W.
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Here is a bit more on the difference concerning the manner the western pragmatic mindset reads the scriptures and the eastern wholistic mindset. Take for example Psalms 19:7-11, the western tradition takes and translates each segment of this Psalm's verses as individual blocks of knowledge that can stand alone by themselves or act as building blocks that connect to each following verse.

The eastern tradition goes beyond this and reads Psalms 19:7-11 as interrelated to each other as well as connects with other parts of the bible as a whole and is teaching something that is to be lived out and expressed by doing. Before I quote these verses, notice what I wrote before regarding the definitions of the Hebrew words translated in our English as 'Perfect' that describe an entire process to reach an end state...
For example the Hebrew word tâmîym 8549 -- Means according to context it is used in bible:

1-complete, whole, entire, sound healthful (process of time)

2-(process of) soundness, wholesome, unimpaired, innocent, regarding integrity, maturity...

3-what is complete or entirely in accord with truth and fact and / also the process this takes to become mature or make mature, whole, sound…

4-Lacking nothing in physical strength, beauty, etc - sound, wholesome - an ordinary, quiet sort of person that is complete, morally innocent, having integrity i.e. that is mature in all his ways whose end is soundness — maturity integrity..
Now on to Psalms 19:7-11 and how this word translated Perfect is used to describe an entire process so the reader can use this a s a spring board to understand that when the Bible speaks of God's ways are perfect — you will look for the process that makes mature, whole.

This word is used to describe the Law in Psalms 19:7: “The law of the LORD is perfect, converting [turning back] the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.” KJV

The Law was not perfect as defined by the English word perfect. Rather the Hebrew concept was that the law was part of a process to instruct the soul of his/her need to return to the Lord.

In fact, the Apostle Paul, a former Pharisee himself, understood Psalms 19:7 to mean a process wrote in Galatians 3:24: “Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.” KJV

The law was not perfect in the English sense of the word. The law could never justify one before God. It was a perfector to bring one to Christ, or part of the process God uses to convert a soul back to the Lord. This is the testimony of the Lord that makes the naí¯ve wise in his/her return back to the Lord.

Again, the Hebrew word translated into 'perfect' here denotes and entire process of becoming mature and wholely intended what God desires the converted to become; his people, a holy nation, a royal priesthood governing our personal actions by the standards of God's Love not legalism.

Look at the rest of Psalms 19:7-10 (I added in word meanings for your own study)

Psalms 19:8-10
, “The statutes [precepts, principles, instructions] of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment [Law of love — greatest commandment meant here] of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes. 9 The fear [respect, reverence] of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments [acts - methods of deciding a case, God's way of bring things about] of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.10 More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.” KJV

The statutes [precepts, principles, instructions] of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart. They rejoice the heart because the precepts of the Lord describe who God is — they reveal his character and nature. This truly rejoices the heart and we learn to love the Lord because he first loved us.

An example of this is found and learned from the message of the cross of Christ. The cross reveals God's great love — the precepts, principles, instructions from the cross of Christ begin the process toward becoming what God desires. Looking into these reveals truths about God's character and nature and from this — we learn to love God. This principle also applies to other scriptures that describe how God acts and how the bible describes him. These rejoice one's heart!

"The commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes"

This is not the Ten Commandments but rather what Jesus describes as the greatest commandment - the Law of Love: Loving God with one's entire being and from this love loving your neighbor as you yourself love God with thy whole being.

I realize this flies in the face of what many teach regarding Psalms 19. Many commentators stick to a western mindset regarding these verses as meaning only the Law of Moses. But it goes deeper than this, much deeper, as it is describing a process to become his people. I challenge you to disprove that God's intent is to shape, fashion, through living processes a people built and knit to him and to each other upon the foundations of Godly love. The New Testament teaches this plainly as does the Old.

Psalms 19:7-11 is bring this out…”the commandment [Law of love — greatest commandment meant here] of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes..”

Jesus said the people of his time on earth had eyes but could not see and yet — an act of love opens the eyes of some. Some will remain blind but others will see because the royal law of love is pure — enlightening our steps so we can see how we are to be: not legalist but dispensers of God's love [note - Deuteronomy 6:5 and Micah 6:8 on your own]. Legalism brings death and inflates the pride of life. God's love is pure and reveals our steps to live it, live.

Now Psalms 19:9-10 is pretty clear in its meaning: “9 The fear [respect, reverence] of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever...”

Psalms 19:7-11 is describing a process to make one mature and complete in the Lord. This leads to a deep respect and reverence for the Lord that endures forever: you will never rebel again as you have learned about God through living personal processes at home and also cooperate processes within the body of Christ (his church) about God's ways and nature that loves. Such love never betrays the one loved.

In many of our churches this is not lived out as we do not love our neighbor, the person next to you at Church, as we ourselves are to love God. The bride is not adorned and not prepared for the bridegroom. Jesus tells us from the bible that where two or more are gathered in Christ name (character and nature that a name implies) there Christ will be in their midst. Is Christ midst your church?

Now Psalms 19:9 continues: "...the judgments [acts - methods of deciding a case, God's way of bring things about] of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.10 More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.”

The acts of how God performs his judgments refers to the methods of how God decides a matter, his way of bringing things about justly, rightly, in a balanced and fair manner that are true and righteous altogether. Altogether means whole process brought to a conclusion and are built solidly upon truth — the truth that reveals God, his character, nature displayed. The whole universe is full of his - this Glory that reveals who he is! (Note - Revelations 4:11)

Psalms 19:7-11 describes the process of learning about the Lord and that is why doing and living this out, in its entirety, is to be desired more than much fine gold and is sweeter than honey in the honeycomb.

Psalms 19:11, “Moreover by them is thy servant warned (corrected, taught, lived out): and in keeping (observing, doing) of them there is great reward.” KJV

When you read the bible with an eastern mindset you not only see the individual parts of scripture — you also see how it all connects to the contextual theme as well as where each in turn connects elsewhere in the bible to form a whole. From this approach, you learn to live out theme being conveyed and illuminated by the Holy Spirit and thus are learning to become mature, complete, whole.

Concluding thoughts

Matthew 5:48
, “Therefore, you be perfect even as your Father in Heaven is perfect.” LITV

Add the definition for Perfect from the Greek word meaning to this verse: “Therefore, you be perfect [Perfect means in Greek the following: Consummate full grown, adult, of full age, mature full of integrity and virtue being brought into a state of completeness, wholeness] even as your Father in Heaven is perfect [Consummate full grown, adult, of full age, mature full of integrity and virtue, complete, whole].

Note what 2 Peter 1:3-11 teaches and how it relates to Matthew 5:48 as well as what the bible teaches on putting off the old man and putting on the new, renewing the mind, etc and etc…

Learn to read and look for the process and theme from the scripture:

Genesis 1:31, “And God saw everything that He had made and behold, it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning the sixth day.”

God makes things perfect according to his time. When God makes things perfect - it means an entire process must take place and unfold in such manner that reveals the Glory of God.

Note -- Ecc 3:11

Hope this helps....
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Re: A response to the "No Death Before the Fall" artic

Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 10:08 pm
by Robert Byers
Gman wrote:
Robert Byers wrote:No problem. Man would use his knowledge of earth to create/manipulate other planets for his use. The universe is for man. Surely we would not be stuck here. We now talk of expansion to space. If no dying and science had gone forward by this time we'd be everywhere.
Bob, you are not being realistic.. There are no other planets that are habitable for man in our known space. Sure man could erect a dome and try to live in a prison cell somewhere on a distant star, but why couldn't God have made a planet like ours with the same environmental conditions? Why would he bless some folks with an earthly environment, while leaving others to fend for themselves on some remote island?
Robert Byers wrote:Yes any thing wrong with the universe today that leads to decay is from the fall. All death/decay started then. The original universe is gone and only this is a reflection of it in its glory.
Rob byers
This proposes a problem for you then because the universe does in fact reveal that it was in decay long before man even stepped on the earth.

Source: http://www.godandscience.org/youngearth/yeclaims.html
The universe was not in decay until Adams sin. Then decay came and only since then can their be measurement. Before that it was a very different universe.
I say that Man could make his own planets or use ones out there with great knowledge learned here and make them livable. The universe is hugh for eternal man to possess and conquor.
Something went wrong on the way.
Robert byers

Re: A response to the "No Death Before the Fall" artic

Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 9:52 pm
by Gman
Robert Byers wrote:The universe was not in decay until Adams sin. Then decay came and only since then can their be measurement. Before that it was a very different universe.
I say that Man could make his own planets or use ones out there with great knowledge learned here and make them livable. The universe is hugh for eternal man to possess and conquor.
Something went wrong on the way.
Robert byers
Very well Robert... Have it your way. Let me leave you with this question however. If you found out later that God instituted death and decay before man's sin would you despise Him for it?

Re: A response to the "No Death Before the Fall" artic

Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 7:22 pm
by B. W.
Gman wrote:
Robert Byers wrote:The universe was not in decay until Adams sin. Then decay came and only since then can their be measurement. Before that it was a very different universe.
I say that Man could make his own planets or use ones out there with great knowledge learned here and make them livable. The universe is hugh for eternal man to possess and conquor.
Something went wrong on the way.
Robert byers
Very well Robert... Have it your way. Let me leave you with this question however. If you found out later that God instituted death and decay before man's sin would you despise Him for it?
Sorry guys - been away for awhile - I'll respond more soon. I had the flu and now recovering!
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