Evidence for God from Science

Fortigurn wrote:

Byblos wrote:Please answer this question: Would the Ethiopian have believed if it weren't for the Holy Spirit?

What does that mean? If you mean 'Would the Ethiopian eunuch have believed if Philip hadn't been guided to him', the answer is 'No'. But that's not the topic under discussion. The topic under discussion is whether or not the Ethiopian eunuch needed the Holy Spirit to operate within him and guide his understanding of the Bible.

It is so sequitur (you like that, huh?).

No, it is a non sequitur. Dealing with my arguments does not render them arguments of ignorance. They are either arguments of ignorance because of a logical fallacy, or they are not. Responding to them does not render them logically false.

Apparently you do not read your own links. This is a direct quote from your 'it' link above:

Fortigurn's link wrote: since no proof is available that this does not exist, it might exist, but this alone does not prove it to exist.

In other words, one can't say for sure whether or not it does, that's my argument (supported by your link). You're saying you can say for sure, thereby contradicting your own proof.

You misunderstand what is written here. What this says that if no proof is available that it does not exist, then it might exist but this alone does not prove it to exist.

Since I was not arguing that something exists when there is no proof available that it does exist, this does not apply to my argument.

Rather, it applies to yours. You were asserting the role of the Holy Spirit in two texts in which the Holy Spirit does not appear. Not only that, but two texts in which the role of teaching is said to be carried out by Philip on one hand, and the Bible on the other.

Fortigurn, why do you like to play games? I am certainly not asserting that it exists, I am asserting that it may have existed (as per your link). You offered the 2 examples of the Ethiopian and the Bereans as proof that one does not need the Holy Spirit in order to believe. In other words, you are offering your examples as proof of the non-existence of the Holy Spirit in those 2 examples. What I simply showed you as per your own link that your proof is not really a proof as it is quite possible that the Holy Spirit was present in those 2 situations, you just can't say definitively. Can't be simpler than that but, yet again, you want to complicate things and try to muddy the waters.

If you had offered these 2 examples such that the Holy Spirit may or may not be involved (as per your own link), I would tend to agree with you, but you're not.

Fortigurn wrote:

August wrote:

Fortigurn wrote:

August wrote:

Fortigurn wrote:

Yes it is.

So, are you, and these clever gentlemen saying negatives cannot be proven? Why don't you give us a syllogy to prove that statement to be true?

Do you mean a 'syllogism'? What is it about the examples they have already provided which you don't understand?

I don't want examples, I want a logical proof from you to show that statement to be true.

Examples which were logical proofs were in fact given. Did you read the links?

If you don't want to answer the question, just say so. I read the links, yes, and I believe them to be debatable.

Acts 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he (The Etheopian Eunuch) answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

1 Corinthians 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

1 John 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Romans 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

John 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

1 Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

1 Thessalonians 4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.

Matthew 10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Acts 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

1 Corinthians 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

I can continue, this is a small sample.

Jbuza wrote:I can continue, this is a small sample.

It would help if you provided passages which say that we can only understand the Bible with the aid of the Holy Spirit.

Jbuza wrote:Acts 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he (The Ethiopian Eunuch) answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. I can continue, this is a small sample...

Here, I'll add a few...excellent quotes Jbuzza

From the NET Bible:

Teaching on the Holy Spirit

John 14:15-17,25 “If you love me, you will obey my commandments. Then I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate to be with you forever — the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot accept, because it does not see him or know him. But you know him, because he resides with you and will be in you... 25 “I have spoken these things while staying with you. But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything, and will cause you to remember everything I said to you." NET

John 16:7-15 "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I am going away. For if I do not go away, the Advocate will not come to you, but if I go, I will send him to you. And when he comes, he will prove the world wrong concerning sin and righteousness and judgment — concerning sin, because they do not believe in me; concerning righteousness, because I am going to the Father and you will see me no longer; and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been condemned.

“I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all truth. For he will not speak on his own authority, but will speak whatever he hears, and will tell you what is to come. He will glorify me, because he will receive from me what is mine and will tell it to you. Everything that the Father has is mine; that is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what is mine and will tell it to you." NET

Acts 8:34-37 Then the eunuch said to Philip, “Please tell me, who is the prophet saying this about — himself or someone else?” So Philip started speaking, and beginning with this scripture (106) proclaimed the good news about Jesus to him. Now as they were going along the road, they came to some water, and the eunuch said, “Look, there is water! What is to stop me from being baptized?-108” NET

Note the NET notes on verses 35

NET wrote: 106sn Beginning with this scripture. The discussion likely included many of the scriptures Acts has already noted for the reader in earlier speeches. At the least, readers of Acts would know what other scriptures might be meant.

This is true as it is written in Romans 10:9-14, “because if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and thus has righteousness and with the mouth one confesses and thus has salvation. For the scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between the Jew and the Greek, for the same Lord is Lord of all, who richly blesses all who call on him. For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. Thus, verse 37 is appropriate to include and not left out as the NET has done.

Also John 3:16 “For this is the way God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life,” If you try to argue that Paul came after Acts, remember, Jesus came first and said this. Thus, verse 37 is appropriate to include and not left out as the NET has done.

Now, if you argue that only the readers of Acts would know what other scriptures might be meant, please note that the book of Acts was written after this event. We also read this after the event. If you try to argue, show me scripture in Acts that this might refer, then Read Acts 2:38-39: Acts 3:18-19: Acts 4:11-12; therefore, Acts 8:37 is appropriate to include and not left out as the NET has done.

NET wrote: Note on NET verse 37 see - 108tc A few later mss (E 36 323 453 945 1739 1891 pc) add, with minor variations, 8:37 “He said to him, 'If you believe with your whole heart, you may.' He replied, 'I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.'” Verse 37 is lacking in {Ì45,74 א A B C 33 614 vg syp,h co}. It is clearly not a part of the original text of Acts. The variant is significant in showing how some in the early church viewed a confession of faith. The present translation follows NA27 in omitting the verse number, a procedure also followed by a number of other modern translations.

Now notice, Matthew16:16-18 “Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered him, “You are blessed, Simon son of Jonah, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but my Father in heaven! And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.” NET

Act 8:37 “He said to him, 'If you believe with your whole heart, you may.' He replied, 'I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.'” NET

Yes, flesh and blood did not convince the eunuch — God's Holy Spirit did through the messenger of Philip as it is written in:

John 14:17,20 “…the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot accept, because it does not see him or know him. But you know him, because he resides with you and will be in you.” …20 You will know at that time that I am in my Father and you are in me and I am in you.” NET

John 15:26-27 “When the Advocate comes, whom I will send you from the Father — the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father — he will testify about me, and you also will testify, because you have been with me from the beginning.” NET
-
-
-

Consider…

How many religious groups or associations exist in North America alone that teach doctrines considered heresy by mainstream evangelical Christianity.

Most so-called Christian churches assert that if one denies the Trinity they deny Christianity, yet many of these people who hold teachings which are considered heresy are not only very convicted in their beliefs but would sacrifice a great deal to defend their beliefs, perhaps to the point of blood and even death. Most on this forum would find not a few beliefs in common with many of these groups, aside from the obvious doctrines they disagree with. Thus even those who might be considered heretics may have rather advanced understanding of many doctrines shared by mainstream Christians.

The point is, if one Christian group decides another Christian group are heretics even though certain mutual beliefs are equally understood by both, does this infer the Holy Spirit must have been working with, leading, guiding or providing insight to those who are considered heretics?

If one answers no, then how is it they have come to understand doctrines and have deep insights that some claim can only be attained or understood by revelation through the Holy Spirit?

I'm not saying the Holy Spirit does not guide, influence, open our minds, or reveal truth to us, I'm merely suggesting that proof is all around that people can understand and believe biblical concepts without the apparent involvement of the Holy Spirit.

R7-12

Byblos wrote:Fortigurn, why do you like to play games? I am certainly not asserting that it exists, I am asserting that it may have existed (as per your link). You offered the 2 examples of the Ethiopian and the Bereans as proof that one does not need the Holy Spirit in order to believe. In other words, you are offering your examples as proof of the non-existence of the Holy Spirit in those 2 examples.

I am not playing any games.

What I simply showed you as per your own link that your proof is not really a proof as it is quite possible that the Holy Spirit was present in those 2 situations, you just can't say definitively. Can't be simpler than that but, yet again, you want to complicate things and try to muddy the waters.

If you had offered these 2 examples such that the Holy Spirit may or may not be involved (as per your own link), I would tend to agree with you, but you're not.

What both texts say very plainly is that people were led to believe by means other than the Holy Spirit:

Acts 8:
31 The man replied, “How in the world can I, unless someone guides me?” So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.

34 Then the eunuch said to Philip, “Please tell me, who is the prophet saying this about—himself or someone else?”
35 So Philip started speaking, and beginning with this scripture proclaimed the good news about Jesus to him.

We are told here that the Ethiopian eunuch understood by the Bible because Philip taught him. We are told that he believed because Phillip taught him. There is no room for claims that he was taught by both Philip and the Holy Spirit. That would contradict what is said here.

The incident with the Bereans is the same:

Acts 17:
11 These Jews were more open-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they eagerly received the message, examining the scriptures carefully every day to see if these things were so.
12 Therefore many of them believed, along with quite a few prominent Greek women and men.

Unregenerate men and women received the message, they examined the Scriptures carefully to see if these things were so, and therefore they believed.

In both cases we are told that unregenerate people were led to believe by a combination of being taught by men, and reading the Bible themselves.

This, we are told, is how they were converted. To say otherwise is to contradict what is said. I have referred to the conversion accounts of Acts 2 and 3, as well as to Romans 10, all of which say the same.

R7-12 wrote:Consider…

How many religious groups or associations exist in North America alone that teach doctrines considered heresy by mainstream evangelical Christianity.

Most so-called Christian churches assert that if one denies the Trinity they deny Christianity, yet many of these people who hold teachings which are considered heresy are not only very convicted in their beliefs but would sacrifice a great deal to defend their beliefs, perhaps to the point of blood and even death. Most on this forum would find not a few beliefs in common with many of these groups, aside from the obvious doctrines they disagree with. Thus even those who might be considered heretics may have rather advanced understanding of many doctrines shared by mainstream Christians.

The point is, if one Christian group decides another Christian group are heretics even though certain mutual beliefs are equally understood by both, does this infer the Holy Spirit must have been working with, leading, guiding or providing insight to those who are considered heretics?

If one answers no, then how is it they have come to understand doctrines and have deep insights that some claim can only be attained or understood by revelation through the Holy Spirit?

I'm not saying the Holy Spirit does not guide, influence, open our minds, or reveal truth to us, I'm merely suggesting that proof is all around that people can understand and believe biblical concepts without the apparent involvement of the Holy Spirit.

R7-12

Interesting take on this, great thoughts.

Man also has his own understanding doesn't he? Certianly heretical understanding comes from man not from God, right? Can two different understandings of the same thing be correct? Clearly the Bible talks about false teachers, and false doctrines, so I am very suspicious of having man lead me to an understanding, I mean man can teach and all, but I believe that I can know if something is from God becuase I have the mind of Jesus and the sprit of God within myself.

B. W. wrote:
From the NET Bible:

I have recently discovered that translation, and must say that I really like it. The notes are especially nice and I think it would make a great companion to my KJV. I truly love the language of the KJV, but also like the plainer reading of the NET.

Acts 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he (The Etheopian Eunuch) answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

1 Corinthians 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

1 John 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

The Holy Spirit gave the understanding. Man cannot know God of himself, man cannot know the things of God without the spirit of God. Paul said that he watered and God gave the increase. The Bible says that it pleases God to spread his word by the foolishness of preaching, so that no flesh will glorify itself in his prescense. In other words all the wise words in the world are not going to convince Fortigurn that Jesus is the I AM who created all things, or that the Holy Spirit of God works in the hearts of men to show them things of God, and give them understanding of all doctrine.

Paul in his second letter to Timothy says 7Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things. Now notice that Paul doesn't say understand what I have to say, or consider that you may understand, but specifically says that the understanding will come from the Lord.


Luke 24:45 (Jesus to the twelve)
Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

Romans 3:10As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

1 John
20And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
10He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

IT seems, Fortigurn, that it is more important to you that you hold onto these teachings contrary to the Bible, than it is to seek an understanding of this. Why do you argue against the Word of God?

Jbuza wrote:

B. W. wrote:
From the NET Bible:

I have recently discovered that translation, and must say that I really like it. The notes are especially nice and I think it would make a great companion to my KJV. I truly love the language of the KJV, but also like the plainer reading of the NET.

I'm glad to have had some good influence on this forum.

Jbuza wrote:Acts 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he (The Etheopian Eunuch) answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

I see no Holy Spirit here.

1 Corinthians 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Except for demons and demon possessed people, remember? This verse does not say what you seem to think it says.

1 John 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

This says nothing about the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit gave the understanding.

Scripture please.

Man cannot know God of himself, man cannot know the things of God without the spirit of God. Paul said that he watered and God gave the increase. The Bible says that it pleases God to spread his word by the foolishness of preaching, so that no flesh will glorify itself in his prescense. In other words all the wise words in the world are not going to convince Fortigurn that Jesus is the I AM who created all things, or that the Holy Spirit of God works in the hearts of men to show them things of God, and give them understanding of all doctrine.

The Spirit of God is in the Bible.

Jbuza wrote:Paul in his second letter to Timothy says 7Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things. Now notice that Paul doesn't say understand what I have to say, or consider that you may understand, but specifically says that the understanding will come from the Lord.

Yes, but how?

1 John
20And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
10He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

Verse 20 is speaking of the apostles, of whom John was one.

IT seems, Fortigurn, that it is more important to you that you hold onto these teachings contrary to the Bible, than it is to seek an understanding of this. Why do you argue against the Word of God?

I haven't seen any passages yet from you which say that we cannot understand the Bible without the Holy Spirit.

You still haven't dealt with the Ethiopian eunuch or the Bereans yet, not to mention the conversion experiences in Acts 2 and 3, and Romans 10.

This verse does not say what you seem to think it says.

And that is the clincher, what must I do to understand it turn to your wisdom, or your church? Perhaps if I study long enough I can swell up with my own wisdom and finally understand it