Evidence for God from Science

I hold that both books are about the destruction of Jerusalem. Of course, it would take pages of material to expound that idea, but I'll try to make this point as we move on. I just don't want to turn this board into my particular podium, so I'll summarize whenever possible.

I think that the "pre-trib" rapture idea has to be dealt with first. It is hard to look objectively at the scriptures once this idea has been impressed in a person's mind. Once we establish that the "pre-trib Rapture" isn't found in the Bible, we can move on to try and discover what it does teach. Besides, most people don't realize that the modern "left behind" theology did not even exist in the church until the early 1800's. There have always been premillennialists, but not of the modern dispensationalists stripes.

Thats not true at all the pre-trib view has been around much longer than that and Paul talks about it in 1 Ccor 15:51 if you remember I quoted that verse. Is Paul lying or does the rapture happen before the tribulation? It sure looks that way to me! What does Paul mean by the "twinkling of an eye?" It means we will be changed and gathered to join Christ in the clouds. So the whole left behind premise is right on as far as I'm concerned. What hope is there for a Christian who has to gothrough God's wrath? I haven't heard an answer on that question. We are guarenteed a hope or Paul is lying. Either we have hope or we don,t. Without the rapture we're dead in our sins.

waynes world wrote:Thats not true at all the pre-trib view has been around much longer than that and Paul talks about it in 1 Ccor 15:51 if you remember I quoted that verse. Is Paul lying or does the rapture happen before the tribulation?

OK Wayne. Show me where Paul says that "the rapture happens before the tribulation". Paul says absolutely nothing about a tribulation period.

waynes world wrote:It sure looks that way to me! What does Paul mean by the "twinkling of an eye?" It means we will be changed and gathered to join Christ in the clouds.

I agree with this verse. Where is the tribulation period?

waynes world wrote:So the whole left behind premise is right on as far as I'm concerned. What hope is there for a Christian who has to gothrough God's wrath? I haven't heard an answer on that question. We are guarenteed a hope or Paul is lying. Either we have hope or we don,t. Without the rapture we're dead in our sins.

Wayne, let me say this just one more time. Read carefully now. Are you ready? Here goes.

"There is no reason to believe in a future tribulation period."

Wayne, did you get it this time? I haven't heard an answer to that question. Our hope is in our resurrection, which is what Paul is writing about in Chapter 15, not a "pre-trib" rapture".

And the "pre-trib rapture" theory was not around before the 1800's.

How do you explain 1 Cor 15:51? There must be a resurection of the dead otherwise we are dead in our sins. If the rapture is post trib doesn't that mean we go through the tribulation?

waynes world wrote:How do you explain 1 Cor 15:51? There must be a resurection of the dead otherwise we are dead in our sins.

Agreed. What does that have to do with the "pre-trib rapture"?

waynes world wrote:If the rapture is post trib doesn't that mean we go through the tribulation?

Not if the tribulation happened in the First Century, just like Jesus said that it would. (Matthew 24:21, 34)

No Jesus didn't say that at all. Have you read about the plagues described in Revelation? Did any of them happen in the first century? No! Thats because Christ didn't come then he hasn't come yet and I think if you look at the background of 1 Corinthians 15 you will find that Paul actually addresses that point. There were people in the first century who believed the rapture had already happened. My minister who is an expert on the end times explained in a class why that is impossible that Christ came then. Christ couldn't have come in 70 ad because he told me that a generation lasted 70 years not 40 so lets forget about a 70ad timeline besides you make Jesus a liar when he said in Matt 24:35 that no one knows the day or hour of his coming and that two will be standing one taken and one left. It sure looks to me like he's talking about pre-trib in fact that verse is where the idea for left behind came from. As far as I,m concerned the Left Behind idea is the best explaination for the end times. Tell me something: where is the hope for the Christian if the rapture happened then? I keep asking that but get no answer!

waynes world wrote:Tell me something: where is the hope for the Christian if the rapture happened then? I keep asking that but get no answer!

Wayne, this is getting old. I answered this charge in the very forum Mon Aug 29, 2005 12:03 pm, and again on Tue Aug 30, 2005 8:01 am. But for your sake, I'll say it again.

I do NOT believe that the "rapture" happened in 70 AD. I do not believe in the rapture at all.

So Wayne, can we move on or are you still stuck on this issue? Please do not ask me why I believe that Christians will go through the tribulation. I do NOT believe that. The tribulation is over. Please do not ask me why I believe that the "rapture" happened in 70 AD. I do not believe that. There is no "rapture", period.

Now one more time, and this is the very last time that I will respond to these two questions.

1.) I do not believe in any future tribulation period.
2.) I do not believe in the rapture. Not in 70 AD, not in 1988, not in 2000, not ever.

Now can we deal with the meat of the "pre-trib rapture" theory, or are you going to keep asking me over and over again about my belief in a future tribulation period and a 70 AD Rapture? Is this understandable? Am I writing in a foreign language?

Wayne... Here is what Puritan Believes. At least from what I can Tell. He suggests that the Scriptures lead to the 70AD being the Revelations (the seven Churches, The bowl Judgements, etc...) However the Rapture which you believe is not a belief he holds. I think if I am correct Puritan is that you believe Jesus will still come as a Thief in the Night but on the Day he comes back up to setup his Millenial (ooppss Spelling) Kingdom. What Wayne is thinking is that Everyone would believe in a Rapture or the Taking up of the Saints it is just at what Time those Saints will be taken up. The Main Views usually are Pre, Mid and Post. However this is not the Case in your Belief. Is that Correct?

puritan lad wrote:

waynes world wrote:Tell me something: where is the hope for the Christian if the rapture happened then? I keep asking that but get no answer!

Wayne, this is getting old. I answered this charge in the very forum Mon Aug 29, 2005 12:03 pm, and again on Tue Aug 30, 2005 8:01 am. But for your sake, I'll say it again.

I do NOT believe that the "rapture" happened in 70 AD. I do not believe in the rapture at all.

So Wayne, can we move on or are you still stuck on this issue? Please do not ask me why I believe that Christians will go through the tribulation. I do NOT believe that. The tribulation is over. Please do not ask me why I believe that the "rapture" happened in 70 AD. I do not believe that. There is no "rapture", period.

Now one more time, and this is the very last time that I will respond to these two questions.

1.) I do not believe in any future tribulation period.
2.) I do not believe in the rapture. Not in 70 AD, not in 1988, not in 2000, not ever.

Now can we deal with the meat of the "pre-trib rapture" theory, or are you going to keep asking me over and over again about my belief in a future tribulation period and a 70 AD Rapture? Is this understandable? Am I writing in a foreign language?

If there is no rapture than Paul is lying in 1 Cor 15! He says there has to be one. Why do you keep changing your position? I have debunked the 70ad theory but you switch to the post trib view and then to the no rapture view. Any view but pre-trib is that it? If there is no rapture we are dead in our sins. Is Paul lying? I have dealt often with the pre trib rapture and its the best way to understand the scriptures and if you don't like it thats too bad but at least try to respect my position.

Wayne, sorry, I'm a bit late to the discussion, but can you maybe point out the specific scripture, with your explanation? I know you say it's 1 Cor 15, but what exactly do you read there?

OK Wayne, I think I know where you are coming from. I have not changed my position.

When I said that I was, in a sense, VERY post-trib, I was referring to the Second Coming, not a "rapture". If you read bizzt's post, he's very close to what I believe, except I'm not certain about a literal 1,000 year reign. We'll have to wait and see on that. Now let me see if I can explain further.

1.) The Great Tribulation is over. Jesus said that it would be a first Century event (Matthew 24:34). John went through it with the 7 churches of Asia (Rev. 1:9).

2.) The resurrection, not a rapture, is our blessed hope. The resurrection takes place on the "last day" (Dan. 12:13, John 6:39, 40, 44), not before any tribulation period. The "calling up" and our "change" take place AFTER the resurrection (1 Thess. 4:16-17), not before any tribulation period.

3.) When Christ returns, history will end (2 Peter 3:10). No tribulation period, world dictator, or anyone left behind. There will be a resurrection (our blessed hope), and a final judgment.

There is alot more, and I can expound on any of these ideas if you wish.

Now Wayne, do you object to any of the above, and if so, why (using scripture)?

The rapture didn't happen in 70 AD! It couldn't have. Paul addresses the 70AD theory directly in 1 Corinthians 15. The people of Pauls day didn't believe in a rapture either and they thought it had already happened. Paul is assuring the people that it hasn't happened. IF there is no rapture than Paul is a liar and the rest of the Bible is a lie! We are still dead in our sins if there is no rapture. I still wan't to know where the hope is for the Christian if there is no rapture/ Have you looked at the plagues of Revelation? How could they have happened in 70AD? The term "generation" can mean race in Matt 24:34 and Jesus is not talking about any rapture that happened in 70ad because a generation lasts 70 years not 40! I think we should not get so humg up on putting dates on what Jesus says thats the hangup here. Jesus says no one knows when the Son of Man appears, is he lying? No the pre-trib is the best way to understand the end times, I'm sorry if you don't like it but it satisfies me just fine.

August wrote:Wayne, sorry, I'm a bit late to the discussion, but can you maybe point out the specific scripture, with your explanation? I know you say it's 1 Cor 15, but what exactly do you read there?

Look at verses 51 to the end of the chapter and the twinkling of an eye and the rest looks like pre-trib to me. Same with 1 thes 4 and Titus 3:7

Look you guys, different people can take scripture differently. Puritan lad may be wrong, but it appears to look right. Do comparative research on other websites.

I don't mind people believing in the post trib but the 70ad rapture has no basis I know of. We get so hung up on literal dates and we shouldn't Jesus says we just don't know when the end will come but we should watch and wait. I think Paul is assuring the Corinthians in the 15th chapter that the rapture hadn't happened yet and that was their concern that they had missed the rapture.