Discussion about scientific issues as they relate to God and Christianity including archaeology, origins of life, the universe, intelligent design, evolution, etc.
Kurieuo wrote:....Genesis 1
26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."
27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.
28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."
...
31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.
Thank you. Seems you are right, I missed that, or never really focused in on that point, or something. I assumed there was some time there.
.. . OK, so, if Adam named the animals the first day, I am happy to hear that. This indicates that there was hyper evolution pretty clearly, because as we see, there weren't that many animals originally created to name! For example, say there was only 2 cats, sort of like a house cat. (I don't know this, for all I know, there was one pair of lions, tigers, as well, etc) Adam names them. AS time goes by, especially after the flood, a need for great adaptations arises, and that cat family branches out. Same with Elephants, just the one pair, later, mamoths, etc from that. One dog pair, etc. Wouldn't take long at all. Especiallly if God brought them over right to the man to name, maybe as they were created, or whatever?! See, this would help explain why no fossils of most mamals and birds, etc showed up till later in the record. They were all right here, save those trilobites, and plants that were made for the planet at large, outside of Eden.
But thanks for the tidbit.
Forgive me friend .... but,
You've just chugged past questioning something and seeing the error and are now of the other side creating an even more amazing scenario.
You are absolutely right. Your position leaves you 2 options. Either question your interpretation of Scripture and adjust there or do what you have just done.
YEC'ers usually won't admit it this readily. You have to believe in evolution on a much larger scale than even naturalists.
Let me say that again, so it sinks in. If you aren't willing to adjust your theology, then you have to believe in evolution to a degree that is absolutely mind boggling.
Assuming Noah's ark is about 4,400 years ago, you have to believe that all of the animals and species alive today evolved over a period of 4,400 years from the animals that Noah was able to transport on his Ark, with no clear fossil record and no observable evidence of it occuring today.
Kurieuo wrote:....Genesis 1
26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."
27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.
28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."
...
31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.
Thank you. Seems you are right, I missed that, or never really focused in on that point, or something. I assumed there was some time there.
.. . OK, so, if Adam named the animals the first day, I am happy to hear that. This indicates that there was hyper evolution pretty clearly, because as we see, there weren't that many animals originally created to name! For example, say there was only 2 cats, sort of like a house cat. (I don't know this, for all I know, there was one pair of lions, tigers, as well, etc) Adam names them. AS time goes by, especially after the flood, a need for great adaptations arises, and that cat family branches out. Same with Elephants, just the one pair, later, mamoths, etc from that. One dog pair, etc. Wouldn't take long at all. Especiallly if God brought them over right to the man to name, maybe as they were created, or whatever?! See, this would help explain why no fossils of most mamals and birds, etc showed up till later in the record. They were all right here, save those trilobites, and plants that were made for the planet at large, outside of Eden.
But thanks for the tidbit.
Forgive me friend .... but,
You've just chugged past questioning something and seeing the error and are now of the other side creating an even more amazing scenario.
You are absolutely right. Your position leaves you 2 options. Either question your interpretation of Scripture and adjust there or do what you have just done.
YEC'ers usually won't admit it this readily. You have to believe in evolution on a much larger scale than even naturalists.
Let me say that again, so it sinks in. If you aren't willing to adjust your theology, then you have to believe in evolution to a degree that is absolutely mind boggling.
Assuming Noah's ark is about 4,400 years ago, you have to believe that all of the animals and species alive today evolved over a period of 4,400 years from the animals that Noah was able to transport on his Ark, with no clear fossil record and no observable evidence of it occuring today.
How do you explain that?
Seriously.
Bart
Glad you notived that. that is exactly what I believe. The big reason why I believe it was possible in the past was because I believe the past was not physical only like the present! It was different. Plants grew, even trees, in DAYS. Continents moved rapidly at times, but the lava cooled quickly, unlike today's rock. Light was different, also both spiritual and physical, like the rest of the universe. This is why it took almost no time to het here from far away then! I doubt there was even gravity! Some other forces more applicable to merged matter were in place. Merged meaning both the spiritual and the physical together. I think this also is how heaven will be. If you remember this natural, physical only present universe will pass away, and new ones will be revealed.
Even after the fall, this helped our lifespans be near a thousand years as well. This atomic level change in our world and universe meant that God's creatures could adapt very quickly as needed. Now, it is so slow as to be a barely noticeable ability. Look at the serpent, it was changed fast into a different creature.
Kurieuo wrote:....Genesis 1
26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."
27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.
28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."
...
31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.
Thank you. Seems you are right, I missed that, or never really focused in on that point, or something. I assumed there was some time there.
.. . OK, so, if Adam named the animals the first day, I am happy to hear that. This indicates that there was hyper evolution pretty clearly, because as we see, there weren't that many animals originally created to name! For example, say there was only 2 cats, sort of like a house cat. (I don't know this, for all I know, there was one pair of lions, tigers, as well, etc) Adam names them. AS time goes by, especially after the flood, a need for great adaptations arises, and that cat family branches out. Same with Elephants, just the one pair, later, mamoths, etc from that. One dog pair, etc. Wouldn't take long at all. Especiallly if God brought them over right to the man to name, maybe as they were created, or whatever?! See, this would help explain why no fossils of most mamals and birds, etc showed up till later in the record. They were all right here, save those trilobites, and plants that were made for the planet at large, outside of Eden.
But thanks for the tidbit.
Forgive me friend .... but,
You've just chugged past questioning something and seeing the error and are now of the other side creating an even more amazing scenario.
You are absolutely right. Your position leaves you 2 options. Either question your interpretation of Scripture and adjust there or do what you have just done.
YEC'ers usually won't admit it this readily. You have to believe in evolution on a much larger scale than even naturalists.
Let me say that again, so it sinks in. If you aren't willing to adjust your theology, then you have to believe in evolution to a degree that is absolutely mind boggling.
Assuming Noah's ark is about 4,400 years ago, you have to believe that all of the animals and species alive today evolved over a period of 4,400 years from the animals that Noah was able to transport on his Ark, with no clear fossil record and no observable evidence of it occuring today.
How do you explain that?
Seriously.
Bart
Glad you notived that. that is exactly what I believe. The big reason why I believe it was possible in the past was because I believe the past was not physical only like the present! It was different. Plants grew, even trees, in DAYS. Continents moved rapidly at times, but the lava cooled quickly, unlike today's rock. Light was different, also both spiritual and physical, like the rest of the universe. This is why it took almost no time to het here from far away then! I doubt there was even gravity! Some other forces more applicable to merged matter were in place. Merged meaning both the spiritual and the physical together. I think this also is how heaven will be. If you remember this natural, physical only present universe will pass away, and new ones will be revealed.
Even after the fall, this helped our lifespans be near a thousand years as well. This atomic level change in our world and universe meant that God's creatures could adapt very quickly as needed. Now, it is so slow as to be a barely noticeable ability. Look at the serpent, it was changed fast into a different creature.
Hyper evolution in our past-yes.
Interesting Thought Dad... however you cannot back that up Scientifically or Biblically.
Kurieuo wrote:....Genesis 1
26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."
27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.
28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."
...
31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.
Thank you. Seems you are right, I missed that, or never really focused in on that point, or something. I assumed there was some time there.
.. . OK, so, if Adam named the animals the first day, I am happy to hear that. This indicates that there was hyper evolution pretty clearly, because as we see, there weren't that many animals originally created to name! For example, say there was only 2 cats, sort of like a house cat. (I don't know this, for all I know, there was one pair of lions, tigers, as well, etc) Adam names them. AS time goes by, especially after the flood, a need for great adaptations arises, and that cat family branches out. Same with Elephants, just the one pair, later, mamoths, etc from that. One dog pair, etc. Wouldn't take long at all. Especiallly if God brought them over right to the man to name, maybe as they were created, or whatever?! See, this would help explain why no fossils of most mamals and birds, etc showed up till later in the record. They were all right here, save those trilobites, and plants that were made for the planet at large, outside of Eden.
But thanks for the tidbit.
Forgive me friend .... but,
You've just chugged past questioning something and seeing the error and are now of the other side creating an even more amazing scenario.
You are absolutely right. Your position leaves you 2 options. Either question your interpretation of Scripture and adjust there or do what you have just done.
YEC'ers usually won't admit it this readily. You have to believe in evolution on a much larger scale than even naturalists.
Let me say that again, so it sinks in. If you aren't willing to adjust your theology, then you have to believe in evolution to a degree that is absolutely mind boggling.
Assuming Noah's ark is about 4,400 years ago, you have to believe that all of the animals and species alive today evolved over a period of 4,400 years from the animals that Noah was able to transport on his Ark, with no clear fossil record and no observable evidence of it occuring today.
How do you explain that?
Seriously.
Bart
Glad you notived that. that is exactly what I believe. The big reason why I believe it was possible in the past was because I believe the past was not physical only like the present! It was different. Plants grew, even trees, in DAYS. Continents moved rapidly at times, but the lava cooled quickly, unlike today's rock. Light was different, also both spiritual and physical, like the rest of the universe. This is why it took almost no time to het here from far away then! I doubt there was even gravity! Some other forces more applicable to merged matter were in place. Merged meaning both the spiritual and the physical together. I think this also is how heaven will be. If you remember this natural, physical only present universe will pass away, and new ones will be revealed.
Even after the fall, this helped our lifespans be near a thousand years as well. This atomic level change in our world and universe meant that God's creatures could adapt very quickly as needed. Now, it is so slow as to be a barely noticeable ability. Look at the serpent, it was changed fast into a different creature.
Hyper evolution in our past-yes.
Well, I respect your candor. However there's no scientific evidence for this at all. I mean none. Further, you're absolutely butchering the text to come to this conclusion.
Seems to me you should anchor to at least one or the other and then work to reconcile the two. I believe the Bible as specific revelation is primary, but as the God of the Bible is also the God of Creation, there should be evidence to back up what you're saying.
dad wrote:
Glad you notived that. that is exactly what I believe. The big reason why I believe it was possible in the past was because I believe the past was not physical only like the present! It was different. Plants grew, even trees, in DAYS. Continents moved rapidly at times, but the lava cooled quickly, unlike today's rock. Light was different, also both spiritual and physical, like the rest of the universe. This is why it took almost no time to het here from far away then! I doubt there was even gravity! Some other forces more applicable to merged matter were in place. Merged meaning both the spiritual and the physical together. I think this also is how heaven will be. If you remember this natural, physical only present universe will pass away, and new ones will be revealed.
Even after the fall, this helped our lifespans be near a thousand years as well. This atomic level change in our world and universe meant that God's creatures could adapt very quickly as needed. Now, it is so slow as to be a barely noticeable ability. Look at the serpent, it was changed fast into a different creature.
Hyper evolution in our past-yes.
You got one problem. The bible.
1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
So the world he created along with the laws of nature, were not the one's we live in now? Why wouldn't it say that? Why have a whole story of creation if God was not finished creating, or God was going to recreate everything?
It is not length of life, but depth of life. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson
--
Well, I respect your candor. However there's no scientific evidence for this at all. I mean none. Further, you're absolutely butchering the text to come to this conclusion.
Seems to me you should anchor to at least one or the other and then work to reconcile the two. I believe the Bible as specific revelation is primary, but as the God of the Bible is also the God of Creation, there should be evidence to back up what you're saying.
Actually, there is no scientific basis to claim that the past was Physical Only! Seriously. None. So, we leave the realm of science one way or the other there. At least with the merged past we have the bible to guide us. Now as for 'butchering the text ' I disagree. It fits with the rest of the bible very well. Even in heaven we see there is ressurected physical bodies, as well as spiritual then, it is both, like Jesus' body after He rose. The new heavens coming must be both, how else could we live forever, and live with God?! Impossible in the temporary soon to pass away heavens we live in now, they are in decay. Oh, I forgot, there was no decay in the merged past either, this is why they messed up the radioactive dating with wrong assumptions of age!
bizzt wrote:...Interesting Thought Dad... however you cannot back that up Scientifically or Biblically.
Actually, not true. There is a lot of biblical support, and nothing at all science can saty against it. It also fits the evidence on all fronts we do have from science!
BGoodForGoodSake wrote:..
You got one problem. The bible.
Not at all.
1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
So the world he created along with the laws of nature, were not the one's we live in now? Why wouldn't it say that? Why have a whole story of creation if God was not finished creating, or God was going to recreate everything?
Ah, a simple misunderstanding. We do live in the original creation, at least part of it. The Physical Only part. There was a seperation that occured about a century after the flood, that, among other things, divided the spiritual from the physical! Before that, if we remember things were different. God walked in the garden, made clothes for them, etc. The sons of God even married our women. That's close.
dad wrote:Impossible in the temporary soon to pass away heavens we live in now, they are in decay. Oh, I forgot, there was no decay in the merged past either, this is why they messed up the radioactive dating with wrong assumptions of age!
How can you have hyper evolution, and astonishing growth rates but then have no radioactive decay? Your messing with the constants this mix will cause all matter to clump together. And you have nothing but a globby universe.
No Beta decay mean a stroger weak force which means that the electromagnetic force will also be strong. Electrons will clump to the nucleus causing bonds between elements to be impossible. This would turn the universe into a thick hydrogen soup. And no stars would form.
It is not length of life, but depth of life. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson
BGoodForGoodSake wrote:..
You got one problem. The bible.
Not at all.
1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
So the world he created along with the laws of nature, were not the one's we live in now? Why wouldn't it say that? Why have a whole story of creation if God was not finished creating, or God was going to recreate everything?
Ah, a simple misunderstanding. We do live in the original creation, at least part of it. The Physical Only part. There was a seperation that occured about a century after the flood, that, among other things, divided the spiritual from the physical! Before that, if we remember things were different. God walked in the garden, made clothes for them, etc. The sons of God even married our women. That's close.
Question what scripture are you talking about? 100 years is a pretty specific data after the Flood!
The last several posts demonstrate pretty clearly what happens when you employ a hermeneutic of the God of the Gaps type approach.
Arguing that your interpretation of Scripture is beyond critique in the absence of any physical evidence because God is omnipotent and not bound by physical law, leads rapidly to complete absurdity.
You might as well argue we were created 5 minutes a go with complete memories and then dare anyone to prove you wrong.
Fortunately in this case we can see where the Scriptural interpretation is off as well.
It would be easy to say all YEC theory is like this, and certainly to some degree most of it is, but it is not always this obvious and the proponent is usually not as willing to admit to it.
Makes me wonder if Dad might be a troll, but I don't know and I don't want to be unkind.
BGoodForGoodSake wrote:...
How can you have hyper evolution, and astonishing growth rates but then have no radioactive decay? Your messing with the constants this mix will cause all matter to clump together. And you have nothing but a globby universe.
Easy! You see spiritual and physical 'matter' is quite different. Have you seen an angel turn into some glob? No. The physical only constants are not the merged constants, very different. Does New Jersusalem decay? No it is forever. Does it smash down, this 1500 mile high and wide and long city into the earth when it lands, wrecking the planet? No. Unlike gravity, the new forces allow it to sail on down real nice. Will the sun and earth and stars that remain in the new heavens decay and die? No, they will be forever. The sun will never decay away as science has claimed. Their guesses of the future and past are all wrong!
No Beta decay mean a stroger weak force which means that the electromagnetic force will also be strong. Electrons will clump to the nucleus causing bonds between elements to be impossible. This would turn the universe into a thick hydrogen soup. And no stars would form.
No, wrong!!! Your hypothosis leaves out the key added ingredient of the future and past, the spiritual. When this is combined with the physical, original perfection is attained. You base everything on the present physical only, and only here are the results valid, not in God' wonderful tommorow, or yesterday.
Question what scripture are you talking about? 100 years is a pretty specific data after the Flood!
The division in the days of Peleg!!!! The seperation of the spiritual from the physical was the key ingredient. Also at that time the languages were divided, as well, many believe, including me, as the continents! I believe it is Gen 10:25
Canuckster1127 wrote:The last several posts demonstrate pretty clearly what happens when you employ a hermeneutic of the God of the Gaps type approach.
Arguing that your interpretation of Scripture is beyond critique in the absence of any physical evidence because God is omnipotent and not bound by physical law, leads rapidly to complete absurdity.
You might as well argue we were created 5 minutes a go with complete memories and then dare anyone to prove you wrong.
False! The bible and science tell us the world was here quite a while. In fact we know from the bible about how long. Of course the spiritual is not bound by silly physical laws. Do you think the material heavens and earth will pass away and a new, decaying, physical only ones appear? Ridiculous.
Fortunately in this case we can see where the Scriptural interpretation is off as well.
It would be easy to say all YEC theory is like this, and certainly to some degree most of it is, but it is not always this obvious and the proponent is usually not as willing to admit to it.
Makes me wonder if Dad might be a troll, but I don't know and I don't want to be unkind.
You are mistake, and when the shock and awe wears off, you will realize that science has nothing to say at all against it, and that the bible is rife with wonderful support! The bible was right all along, as many suspected, and believed.
