Christian Universalism

[catherine]

I've just spent the last couple of hours reading this thread- pheww it was hard work at times but very interesting. I have been 'looking into' the claims of UR and have been praying to God to show me if these claims are true or not. I was wondering if anyone here will help me with my studies? Having read lots of different articles on UR, one of the main 'pillars' that it rests on and which interestingly was only briefly touched upon in this thread, is the translation of 'aion' and 'aionios' as meaning quite the opposite of 'eternal'. The other two main 'pillars' that seem to support UR are: damnation or punishment actually meaning corrective punishment, which suggests for a period (if it is to be corrective) and the belief that hell has been mistranslated in most Bible translations. This last 'pillar' is a very lengthy topic and I intend to read B.W's articles on this, as I know he has posted a lot about it. I would first like to start with clarifying the 'aion' or 'eternal' meaning first as this will surely clear up some of the misunderstanding, or even mistranslation if that proves to be the case.

Here goes then:

Is it possible that the Hebrew words: 'owlam' and 'ad' and the Greek words: 'aion' and 'aionios' have been mistranslated by almost all bible translations?

Here is Strong's definition of 'owlam', 'ad', 'aion', 'aionis':

5769 `owlam o-lawm' or lolam {o-lawm'}; from 5956; properly, concealed, i.e. the vanishing point; generally, time out of mind (past or future), i.e. (practically) eternity; frequentatively, adverbial (especially with prepositional prefix) always:--alway(-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, (n-))ever(-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end). Compare 5331, 5703.

5703 `ad ad from 5710; properly, a (peremptory) terminus, i.e. (by implication) duration, in the sense of advance or perpetuity (substantially as a noun, either with or without a preposition):--eternity, ever(- lasting, -more), old, perpetually, + world without end.

5704 `ad ad properly, the same as 5703 (used as a preposition, adverb or conjunction; especially with a preposition); as far (or long, or much) as, whether of space (even unto) or time (during, while, until) or degree (equally with):--against, and, as, at, before, by (that), even (to), for(-asmuch as), (hither-)to, + how long, into, as long (much) as, (so) that, till, toward, until, when, while, (+ as) yet.

5705 `ad ad (Aramaic) corresponding to 5704; X and, at, for, (hither-)to, on till, (un-)to, until, within.


165. aion (ahee-ohn' ) from the same as 104; properly, an age; by extension, perpetuity (also past); by implication, the world; specially (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future):--age, course, eternal, (for) ever(-more), (n-)ever, (beginning of the , while the) world (began, without end). Compare 5550.

166. aionios (ahee-o'-nee-os) from 165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):--eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).


If there is some doubt as the exact meaning of a word, then it is important to consider the context of the text surely? Also, it would be highly unlikely that a word could have 'opposite' meanings ie 'eternal' as one meaning and 'for an age' as another meaning? Also, the adjective that is formed from a noun, will surely retain the meaning of the noun and not mean something different?

Here are some verses that contain the Hebrew word 'owlam' and by their context seem to mean the opposite of 'eternal':

Exodus 40:15
You shall anoint them, as you anointed their father, that they may minister to Me as priests; for their anointing shall surely be an everlasting (owlam) priesthood throughout their generations."

The Aaronic and Levitical priesthoods were for 'their generations' not 'everlasting'. Jesus' priesthood replaced these??

Young's Literal translation has it as this:
15and anointed them as thou hast anointed their father, and they have acted as priests to Me, and their anointing hath been to be to them for a priesthood age-during, to their generations.'

Exodus 21:6
...He shall also bring him to the door, or to the doorpost, and his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall serve him forever (owlam).

This obviously doesn't mean for ever but for an 'age'??

Young's Literal translation has it as this:
6then hath his lord brought him nigh unto God, and hath brought him nigh unto the door, or unto the side-post, and his lord hath bored his ear with an awl, and he hath served him -- to the age.


Can anyone help me with these studies.....

[catherine]

It's a shame there's no one here to look into these things with me. Oh well, maybe some one will see it one day and be able to help.

[cslewislover]

Hi Catherine. Well, I took a look at this thread - read a number of posts, but not all of it. It seems like they make a good case against universalism, so that's why I didn't post. Maybe others feel the same? And I didn't know what UR stood for, so I didn't look it up.

[catherine]

Hi Cslewislover, thanks for replying. I've been looking into universal reconciliation: the belief that the 'all' that are dying in Adam must mean ALL humans ie 100 % , and therefore the all that are made alive in the last Adam Christ, must also mean ALL, 100%: 1Cor 15:22. As wonderful a concept as it seems, I'm still checking out all the verses that seem to prove that ALL mankind will eventually (at different times) be saved.

One of the foundation stones that UR rests on is the belief that the words for 'eternity' have been mistranslated in the Bible and hence my first post. I came across these series of little ten minute videos by a loveable old Christian man (who has passed away now). I recommend anyone to check them out as they cover some very interesting, thought-provoking issues. They don't really get going til towards the end of the first video. If you check out the first two, you'll know if they're your cup of tea. They're called 'Hell, fact or fiction' but they deal with the aionios translations a lot too. This dear old guy seems to know his stuff:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJoNxjUAAi8

[cslewislover]

It's like with the word "time" as used in Genesis and the rest of the bible. You'll read that it has different meanings different places, and so those who want to believe that 24 hour days are meant will use one version of the Hebrew word time, and those who want to believe otherwise use another version of its meaning. Who knows? I don't know if the words you pick out have the same exact problem.

What I tend to go by in these issues is: after 2,000 years, what is the most generally accepted doctrine, and why? People have hashed over this for a very long time - there's nothing new about it. I don't believe that loving people have decided that the doctrine of Hell (or a permanent hell) is real because they want to see people there. I think they believe it's real because the scriptures teach it. You said yourself in you last entry that you are looking for verses that support universalism. But you need to look at all the verses regarding hell, not just those that seem to support universalism. Because they just seem to, until you put all the verses together. In Luke 2:14, "Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace to men on whom his favor rests," means that God's favor rests on certain men, not on mankind. Why else say it like that? It would be better to say that God rests his favor on man.

That's just one example that I thought of off the top of my head. There are many in the bible about people receiving condemnation, destruction, etc. It actually can be pretty alarming reading the bible (lol). One has to reflect on one's actions and repent. Anyway . . .

So I don't want to come off as hard hearted or something. I was on another board discussing this very thing, last year sometime. It is so common because so many of us cringe at the thought of hell, and it is hard for us to fathom that a loving God could put people in such a place forever. Yet, there is enough in the bible about it (and there have got to be threads here about it, and articles) for us to have to accept God's wisdom in this matter.

(I meant to get this on sooner, but my internet went out and I found out that it was just that the phone cable came out somehow. Lol. Thank goodness I saved this before it had disappeared.)

I don't know if you'd be interested, but here is one article on hell, from bethinking.org: http://www.bethinking.org/suffering/what-about-hell.htm

[catherine]

Hi Cslewislover, I don't believe in a literal hell and haven't done for most of my adult life. I have studied the subject very thoroughly and checked each scriputre etc. There are other people within mainstream Christianity who like me don't believe it is literal. I am going to recheck my understanding of this doctrine, and intend to read B.W's article on it. As much as the idea of a literal hell is repulsive to me,if it is a truth, then I need to know that.

I'm certainly not convinced of Universal Reconcilition and again as appealing as it sounds, God's truth is what matters and only that. Universalism accepts that people are destroyed (not eternally but for an 'age' or 'ages') by God through judgments etc, and most people won't take part in the first resurrection which seems to be only for those 'in Christ': His firstfruits. The rest of the dead will be resurrected after the 1000 years, and so lose out on that special Kingdom blessing due to their disobedience and unbelief. They will have to be punished, which won't be nice but they will be reconciled so that God will be all in all (1 Corinthians 15:24-28) and then will be the restoration of all things Acts 3:21- or say it is claimed. I have come across many scriptures that SEEM to be saying that God is going to reconcile everyone and I welcome anyone to explain the meaning of these verses if they DON'T mean EVERYONE. I will supply the verses for anyone interested.
Thanks for the link. I'll check it out....

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Canuckster...

I have just joined this board, and forgive me in this answer if any of it has already been covered!

That you do not know me, I will volunteer a few facts before I begin... (1) I am 63yrs old (2) I am battling cancer (3) I am a "backyard mechanic" type student (no formal Bible college - thank God)... of 33 YEARS... I spent 5 years in the SDA Church, and almost 20 years in the Salvation Army, and have had passing affiliations with the Healing Rooms International, with the Catholic, and Assembly of God Churches.

This answer will be quite long, so pull up a chair & kick off your shoes, maybe even go get a snack before you read it (if you do read it!)... May the Lord enlighten your pathway...

I too (like BERNIE) ...believe in the Salvation of ALL MEN... for it is a Biblical teaching found throughout the Scriptures, and IS the GOOD NEWS -- GOSPEL intended for ALL MEN... That said, here are a few comments a few years after the fact (this post was dated 2006):

BERNIE: Can you elaborate please? I don't think I understand your point. If by stating that "[Scripture] evidence.....is its own entity independent of the interpretation" you're saying that absolute truth is inherent in Scripture, while man's interpretation can be wrong about the assembling of Scripture meaning, then we agree and I was guilty of loose language in my last post. From your post, it seems you may mean something different than this, yes?

I mean essentially what you restated. Scripture is inspired, inerrant and absolute truth. When we come to the Scriptures, we come as subordinate disciples, whose purpose is to draw forth from the text the truth and to understand it in such a way that our thinking is aligned with it, transformed by it, and subject to it. This is the essence of exegesis. The opposite of this is eisegesis, whereby we project upon the text that which we bring to it, and in effect make the text subject to our interpretation. This is to be avoided.

FIRST -- I agree that SCRIPTURE is INNERRANT, but NO English translation of it, IS. Also... the manuscripts that we DO have to "translate" are NOT the ORIGINALS, and as older ones have been found, descrepancies were found as well... I exclusively use the KJV, not because it is INERRANT (Lord knows THAT is hardly true)... but because I can refer to it and original word meanings with Strongs, as well as I do not have to "recall" which version I based my beliefs upon... Many in Christianity use one version to prove this doctrine, and another to prove another, as it THEOLOGICALLY supports the continuity of their viewpoint..

SECOND -- I also agree with your thought that we are subordinate disciples... I'm not sure I agree completely with your statement in pink above... GOD's WILL is working ALL THINGS together. And ANY vision of His WORDS by FINITE human beings, will be found FINITELY separated from the COMPLETE content it possesses.

That said... ALL views that MEN have of the INFINITE WORD of GOD fall short in EVERY MAN except ONE -- JESUS CHRIST... for the FULLNESS of YHVH dwelt in Him and granted Him TOTAL access as was needed BY Him within His ministry on earth. Which is WHY He said to JUDGE NOT... for we are hardly in any position to determine who, and what, another human being is in proximity to GOD... Only HE can determine the why and wherefore of our lives...

BERNIE: Of course I'd have to disagree wtih this assesment. If you'll walk with me here a bit, maybe we can explore the extent to which either of our formulas for authenitcating truth are able to withstand reasonable scrutiny.

OK. However, I'll tell you up front that it is not sufficient to pick and choose those verses that taken by themselves support a position, or drawn out of context from different passages to form a doctrine where no such teaching exists in substantive whole from any one passage.

I would like to interrupt this for a second... The TRUTH of GOD in His WORD, is NOT confined to CONTEXT (except by "theologians" which require this), as long as that TRUTH does not violate the CONTEXT it is in.

What I am saying is that "Thou shalt NOT Kill" is valid IN and OUT of its CONTEXT is it not? It can STAND ALONE as a TRUTH, without being confined to the LAW given to Moses by YHVH... Matter of fact it did JUST THAT, ...LONG BEFORE the LAW was even GIVEN or STATED to any man... for ABEL was KILLED by CAIN, and it was found to be SIN, even though the standard (LAW) that determines it was SIN, was not yet GIVEN to man... continuing:

The entire counsel of God and all Scripture must be observed. Further, the framework or "formula" you refer to itself must be shown to originate with Scripture, not simply serve as a device in which to systematize a position which we set out to prove. That is in itself a subtle form of eisegesis. Further reason is certainly an important component, but it is not the final arbiter. God's immutable characteristics tie into a discussion of this nature and I believe that both traditional positions in this realm, Calvinism and Arminianism fail to account for an element of mystery, in my opinion and so I choose not to accept either polarity and to embrace and accept that ambiguity by faith as the natural consequence of my attempting to grasp something that is infinite by the instrument of my finite mind and perspective.

No offense bro, but it appears that you WAY over complicate the SIMPLE... The LAW of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul , the TESTIMONY of YHVH is sure, making WISE, ...the SIMPLE -- Ps 19:7

THIRD -- Many times, students of the WORD which are "schooled" (and I have conversed with untold numbers of them over the years), can't leave out the COMPLEXITIES of their education in relating the SIMPLE TRUTH of GOD's WORD... Your "theological terminology" does nothing to found what you are hoping to covey. (JMHO)

Universalism, such as you are proposing it however, I find no support for in Scripture and I will interact with your positions below to explain why.

As I am following along, it will be interesting to see that the Salvation of ALL MEN, is not supported in the Scripture...

BERNIE: believe with my Arminian brethren that God illumines all with prevenient grace: “There was the true light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man” (Jn 1:9).. I believe this is necessarily a regenerative process, re 1Co 2:14: "But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised." One must necessarily be raised above the "natural" or carnal state to have any light in spiritual matters, and this raising is by nature spiritually regenerative.

There is a sense of common grace that is extended to all mankind in general terms based upon the goodness of God. John 1:9 clearly is part of an entire passage John 1:1-14 which introduces the Book of John that ties clearly back to the Genesis account and seeks to establish that Christ, the "Word", was tied back to the beginnings of this very world in terms of God's purpose. There is no question that the obedience, sacrifice and resurrection of Christ is sufficient to bring salvation to every single person who is alive, has ever lived, or will yet live. That is not in question. What is in question is your proposal that based upon this premise it follows that God has independently projected that condition upon every person independent of any other factor. Note as well, that the testimony being referred to in the verse you quote is referring to the testimony of John the Baptist to Christ.

The irony is not lost on me that a good deal of the rationale for hyper-Calvinism is similarly supported in these terms by the same or similar passages. The primary difference being one of scope, more than anything else. (I'll pause here. Indignant Calvinists may insert their comments here.)

I'm not a Calvinist, neither does this cause indignance in me bro... but I will make a comment or two -- mmkay?

Men are nothing but "clod's of dirt"... and God is as IMPARTIAL toward one, as He is to another. Also, the WORK of SALVATION is EXCLUSIVELY His... so in order to maintain that IMPARTIALITY, if He performs the WORK of SALVATION in "one clod" that claim of IMPARTIALITY requires Him to perform that same WORK in ALL other "CLODS"... (Impartiality = Acts 10:34 -- Rom 2:11 - Gal 2:6 -- Eph 6:9 -- 2 Sam 14:14 -- Job 34:19 -- Mark 12:14 -- 2 Chron 19:7 -- Prov 28:21 -- Col 3:25)

BERNIE: I also believe the Bible when it says that Christ Jesus died for all sin: “….He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world” (1Jo 2:2), and that Paul spoke under the guidance of the Holy Spirit when he wrote, "This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1Tim 2:3-4).

I agree God desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. There is a difference, however between what God desires and what God wills to come to pass.

Says you... YHVH GOD is an UNCHANGING entity, ...GOD so LOVED the WORLD, and sent His Son to SAVE it... John 3:16 -- this is MUCH more than just a mere DESIRE... it is an ETERNAL UNCHANGING DESIRE... GOD so LOVED the WORLD / DOES LOVE the WORLD / ALWAYS WILL LOVE the WORLD, ...bro!

You wish a new IPOD to be under the Christmas tree, or success with your latest business venture... those are "desires".... which PALE in comparison to the LIVES of MEN... GOD's "desire" is AN INFINITE desire... something that will NEVER CHANGE, for He NEVER changes... Sorry, but it is a weak arguement to reduce the WILL of GOD to the human concept of "desire"...

It was such a BIGGIE that He was willing that His ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, ...DIE... to redeem that "desire"... The pure immensity and HOLINESS of that "desire" is NOT left to SINFUL MEN to decide its FULFILLMENT...

GOD states in His WORD... that it is HIS WILL that NONE PERISH... 2 Pet 3:9

That is a FIRM statement concerning LIFE... not just a "whim" as you or I might have within the abbreviated "vapor" of a LIFE in which we walk... This is a DESIRE that is PERMANENT! And that LIFE is DEPENDENT upon. God would leave no such portion of His heart to be trampled upon by MEN, leaving Himself Eternally EMPTY of those which were LOST permanently... accepting the LOSSES at the hands of SINFUL men, when HE is well able to SAVE ALL...

Are God's desires such that they always come to pass? It may surprise you to find that that is not the case. It is not a matter of power to do so. It is a matter of God's overall plan that has allowed for a measure of free will within mankind to make decisions that have implications.

I firmly disagree with this statement, simply because the SCRIPTURE says that GOD works ALL THINGS after the counsel [advising] of HIS OWN WILL -- Eph 1:11 -- NOT according to the IMPRISONED "wills" of men... ALL THINGS are ALL THINGS, whether YOU (or I) might like it or not like it...

Where is it BIBLICALLY stated that men have FREE WILL, bro? That is an assumption made by your observation of CHOICE... however... a SINFUL mind cannot be considered "FREE" in any way. It is IN BONDAGE to SIN... which is certainly NOT FREE... James 1:14

Also, it takes the WORD of GOD to ...MAKE... a man FREE... John 8:32 ...until the WORD creates FREEDOM in us, ...we are in the BONDAGE of SINFUL and desparately WICKED hearts... Jer 17:9

If men have a will that is FREE... then you observe HITLER as having acted within a "will" which was FREE?

Please... He acted with a will which was COMPLETELY IMPRISONED by extreme DERANGEMENT... not with a "will" which was "FREE"...

A dog makes "choices"... does it have "free will"? A computer makes choices, does it have "free will"? Not a chance!

What does Prov 21:3 say? "To do righteousness and justice is desired by the Lord rather than sacrifice." Do all people do righteousness and justice? Obviously not.

Be careful in LIFTING verses out of their CONTEXT bro... (to prove your points)

The KJV renders this verse a little differently: To do justice and judgment is MORE ACCEPTABLE [#H977 Bachar - acceptable, choose, join, appoint], to YHVH than sacrifice... ...this casts quite a different light on your quoted verse. "More acceptable" does not mean DESIRE... it defines His view more as FIXED, ...not "up for grabs" ...as would "desire" imply...

Acts 17:30 states "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent" Do all people repent? Obviously not. This is not the only instances of God willing limits to his actions and power. Part of the mystery of Christ's incarnation as reflected in Phil 2:5-11 demonstrates that Christ "emptied" himself of much that was His due as God, in order to dwell among us and accomplish His purpose. Christ never ceased to be who He was. He did voluntarily limit His will and not exercise His power in order to conform to the overall purpose and plan of God.

REPENTENCE is not decided by SINFUL men, bro... Rom 2:4 -- GOD leads men to "repentence"... and only the WORD can cause this for it AUTHORS FAITH to "believe" -- Heb 12:2 ...and NO MAN is ABLE to come to the WORD, except he be DRAWN [Greek=dragged] John 6:44

ADAM was COMMANDED to leave the "tree" alone... did he do so? That men transgress the COMMAND of GOD, is part of the demonstration of GOOD and EVIL... for when the SINGLE KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL is gained, MAN ...becomes... as IS, His Creator... Gen 3:22 -- It is GOD who sends His people into CAPTIVITY -- Jer 29:14 -- and it is GOD who brings them OUT of that CAPTIVITY...

NO MAN can "deliver himself" via a "repentence" that was emergent from himself... Only REPENTENCE which is GOD-lead, shall deliver him from his BONDAGE... Ex 20:2-3

Why would GOD send His people into captivity, Canuckster? It's simple... no KNOWLEDGE of CAPTIVITY can be KNOWN, unless it is EXPERIENCED... then and ONLY THEN, can FREEDOM be observed for the GLORIOUS entity that it IS...

KNOWLEDGE is NOT just "information" alone... It is "information" APPLIED to EXPERIENCE, that produces KNOWLEDGE... One can read 100 books about driving a car, and be totally INFORMED as to its details, ...however... "reading" those books does not equate to KNOWING HOW to DRIVE... it takes the EXPERIENCE behind the wheel to produce a "driver"...

This causes a lot of confusion for people. It is one reason why non-believers construct such seemingly logical impossibilities such as "Can God create a rock so big He cannot lift it." The power and ability to do something does not preclude the choice of God not to do it.

This type of proposal is irrelevant and does nothing to prove your stance that MEN choose to be SAVED of their own decisions... which (according to most Orthodox theology and thinking) whether it is agreed with or NOT, ...equates them as THEIR OWN SAVIORS, for APART from "their decision for CHRIST"... They (according to Orthodox theology) remain UNSAVED...

CHRIST said: "it is FINISHED"... What was finished, Canuckster?

It is plain as the nose on your spiritual face bro... the RECONCILIATION which GOD sent Him to ACCOMPLISHED, was therein COMPLETE. Exactly HOW MUCH Reconciliation? try: Col 1:20 PEACE (not horror or further torment) was made by His journey to the cross bro... and ALL THINGS -- in Heaven [GOD] and in Earth [men] are found RECONCILED BY that BLOOD...

Well, just what does the English word "RECONCILED" mean in Col 1:20? The word in the Greek is APOKATALLASSO [#G604] which is translated RECONCILE into English... "CHANGING MUTUALLY", something which was in a state of DIFFERENCE, back to its original place... in ENGLISH the word RECONCILE means:

From Merriam-Webster's Dictionary:

Main Entry: rec·on·cile
Pronunciation: \ˈre-kən-ˌsī(-ə)l\
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): rec·on·ciled; rec·on·cil·ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French or Latin; Anglo-French reconciler, from Latin reconciliare, from re- + conciliare to conciliate
Date: 14th century
transitive verb
1 a: to restore to friendship or harmony <reconciled the factions> b: settle, resolve <reconcile differences>
2: to make consistent or congruous <reconcile an ideal with reality>
3: to cause to submit to or accept something unpleasant <was reconciled to hardship>
4 a: to check (a financial account) against another for accuracy b: to account for
intransitive verb
: to become reconciled

I can interact more with what you have below, but as it is based upon the flawed premise above, I have to summarily reject it as derivative of that error.

It is your "summarily rejected" position that is derivative of error bro... It is "summarily" deducing that CHRIST failed to SAVE the WORLD, and failed to RECONCILE ALL THINGS, as was His ASSIGNED and SELF STATED mission: Luke 19:10 ALL men are LOST dear brother... and are therefore the SUBJECTS of His mission...

You make your determination with veiled eyes... comparing YOUR belief to BERNIES... and deducing that HIS observation as compared to you "correct" one, concludes his as in ERROR... Please... Your summary is nothing but the parroting of ORTHODOX theology, which denotes ITSELF as "correct", yet argues with itself via its DENOMINATIONAL divisions... Several positions which are NOT ALIGNED, claiming they are ONE... yet displaying to the WORLD, the ineptness of their claims by their UNMOVING separations from one another...

CHRIST noted that Rev 3:21 ONENESS concerning TRUTH is the GOAL, not SEPARATIONS, and that it takes an EAR to HEAR this...

He also noted that He came NOT to bring PEACE (SWORD=TRUTH), but to DIVIDE even the most INTIMATE of entites: Matt 10:34-38, for the TRUTH shall always DIVIDE itself from earthly and FALLITIOUS relationships and must be HELD above them irregardless of the cost...

If "ORTHODOX Christianity" actually HELD the TRUTH... it would CEASE from being in division... rallying together under ONE FLAG=CHRIST ...but it DOES NOT, ...and displays itself for what it IS -- for CHRIST also said: A house DIVIDED shall NOT STAND... Matt 12:25 -- Luke 11:17

Further, there is much in Scripture that speaks directly in opposition to the premise that all are saved.

Matt. 7:13-14

"Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide, and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter by it. 14"For the gate is small, and the way is narrow that leads to life, and few are those who find it,"

It is within the scope of the observation that the conclusion is made... the word DESTRUCTION here is APOLIEA [#G684] which is a derivitive of APOLLUMI... used in the parables of the LOST [apollumi] sheep... and the LOST [apollumi] son... and the LOST [apollumi] coin... ALL which whose destinies are to be FOUND...

You have also failed to notice in your quoted verse, that an ENTRY is made via the "gate" of DESTRUCTION...

Scripture plainly notes this process: 1 Cor 3:11-15 -- especially note verse 15 -- SAVED ...BY... the FIRE (of destruction)...

Matt. 22:14

"For many are called, but few are chosen,"

This verse says NOTHING about Salvation... GOD does not PARTIALLY CHOOSE whom He shall save, He CHOSE ALL to be SAVED -- John 3:16... He chose to SAVE the WORLD, and THAT was the mission of CHRIST... either CHRIST was successful in accomplishing that mission or He FAILED... I believe He was successful, and THAT is the GOOD NEWS of the GOSPEL of PEACE, bro...

Luke 13:22-27

"And He was passing through from one city and village to another, teaching, and proceeding on His way to Jerusalem. 23And someone said to Him, "Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?" And He said to them, 24"Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25"Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, 'Lord, open up to us!' then He will answer and say to you, 'I do not know where you are from.' 26"Then you will begin to say, 'We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets'; 27and He will say, 'I tell you, I do not know where you are from; depart from Me, all you evildoers,'"

Those who IMPERSONATE the GOSPEL by bearing to the World BAD NEWS, are those to whom He is herein speaking... The most EVIL thing that can be done is to FALSIFY the GOSPEL of PEACE...

And CHRIST noted that ...MANY... would come in His name, preaching to the World, THEIR WORKS... failing to note that SAVING is done by GOD, not man... that the WORK of GOD is done by GOD, not man:

Matt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the Kingdom of heaven; but he that DOETH the WILL of My Father which is in heaven... for ...MANY... will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have ...WE... not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name have [WE] not cast out devils, and in Thy name [have WE] done many wonderful works? ...and then I will profess unto them, ...I NEVER KNEW YOU... depart from Me, ye that work INIQUITY...

This "INIQUITY" was done of BELIEVERS, bro... for they call Him LORD, and NO MAN can call CHRIST "LORD" except BY the Holy Spirit 1 Cor 12:3

Are these LOST? Of course they are NOT... but they ARE to be found in their SHAME, departed and DIVIDED from the TRUTH... as the NAKEDNESS of the SHAME of their "gospel" sorrowfully appears before GOD... Rev 3:18

Christians regard SHAME as the works of SIN in the flesh... and rightly so, ...but that is absolutely, NOT ALL there is TO IT! ...the TRUE NAKEDNESS of SHAME, is found in IGNORING the GLORIOUS GOSPEL of PEACE... by PREACHING another "gospel" (of sorrows), that shall encompass MANY BELIEVERS which name CHRIST as their Savior...

There is NO DIRECTIVE to teach "HELL" that was given by CHRIST, ...yet (practically) ALL the variations of Christianity teach it... There are NO EXAMPLES of its teaching in the book of ACTS... there is no presence of it in the teachings of PAUL to the Gentiles... there is no teaching of it in the writings of JOHN... there is no other teachings of a PLACE of ETERNAL TORMENT, by the other writers of NT Scripture such as Jude, Peter, or James...

It's premise was NOT taught by the JEWS, neither is it found as a teaching in the OT... Yet it is a PRIMARY teaching of the Christian church...

BEWARE brother, ...BEWARE...

Rom. 9:27

"And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that will be saved; 28for the Lord will execute His word upon the earth, thoroughly and quickly,"

Saved from what Canuckster? From the SHAME of NAKEDNESS... Rev 3:18... FEW of the JEWS shall be spared this, for the LAST shall be FIRST (Gentiles) and the FIRST shall be LAST (Jews)... Matt 20:16 -- Rom 11:25-26

The SAVED are as the SAND of the SEA... the sand of the SEA (Heb 11:12) or STARS of HEAVEN (Gen 15:5) are hardly ...FEW... Abraham was told by GOD that His seed would be as the Stars of Heaven and Sand of the sea, innumerable, and that that SEED would BLESS ALL the nations of the earth... Gen 22:17-18

Clearly, Christ and other portions of Scripture teach that not all are saved.

Universalism fails the test of the entire counsel of God.

I think it is YOU which fails the test of the ENTIRE COUNSEL of GOD, Canuck... and conveniently PLACE yourself in the "SAVED" category, while dealing DEATH or TORMENT to the multitudes which are not so fortunate as to have SAVED themselves by their "good choosing"... naming yourself via your "choosing CHRIST", as being your own SAVIOR... You WILL find out this INCOMPLETE vision upon the REVELATION of the TRUTH at His coming...

I can name you hundreds of Scriptures which testify to the SUCCESS of GOD's plan to SAVE the WORLD (He SO LOVES)... but would you read them? Of course not, you are too busy, occupied with the disposal of GOD's Children, instead of telling them the GOOD NEWS...

Speaking with the same mouth BLESSINGS and CURSINGS, failing to see Him as He is... Especially: James 3:8-10 (and beyond -- James 3:11-18) setting on FIRE with the TONGUE, the HELL you propose for others...

If you take within, the counsel of these WORDS in James... May GOD open your eyes to the FULL GLORY of what the GOSPEL of PEACE truly ..IS..

Peace

...willieH

[jlay]

Men are nothing but "clod's of dirt"... and God is as IMPARTIAL toward one, as He is to another. Also, the WORK of SALVATION is EXCLUSIVELY His... so in order to maintain that IMPARTIALITY, if He performs the WORK of SALVATION in "one clod" that claim of IMPARTIALITY requires Him to perform that same WORK in ALL other "CLODS"... (Impartiality = Acts 10:34 -- Rom 2:11 - Gal 2:6 -- Eph 6:9 -- 2 Sam 14:14 -- Job 34:19 -- Mark 12:14 -- 2 Chron 19:7 -- Prov 28:21 -- Col 3:25)

I think this fails to take into account the whole counsel.

For example God spared Noah and his family, yet condemned the rest of the world.
Trying to attach human understanding of impartiality can lead us to a wrong understanding of God's character. Jesus could have easily have turned to the unrepentent theif on this other side and cleared up this issue real quick. He didn't

God's grace is available to all men. But it is appointed once to die, and then the judgment.

I hope to read through more and comment later.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Catherine...

I'm a new guy here... and a believer in the SALVATION of ALL MEN... (I don't name myself a "Universalist", for this is a title given to believers in the Doctrine of ALL SAVED, by those who do NOT believe it)...

Hi Cslewislover, I don't believe in a literal hell and haven't done for most of my adult life. I have studied the subject very thoroughly and checked each scriputre etc. There are other people within mainstream Christianity who like me don't believe it is literal. I am going to recheck my understanding of this doctrine, and intend to read B.W's article on it. As much as the idea of a literal hell is repulsive to me,if it is a truth, then I need to know that.

I have spent years researching the teaching of HELL... and it is the CENTERPOINT of the FALSE GOSPEL taught by Orthodox Christianity, headed for SHAME at the appearance of CHRIST... Rev 3:18

I'm certainly not convinced of Universal Reconcilition and again as appealing as it sounds, God's truth is what matters and only that. Universalism accepts that people are destroyed (not eternally but for an 'age' or 'ages') by God through judgments etc, and most people won't take part in the first resurrection which seems to be only for those 'in Christ': His firstfruits. The rest of the dead will be resurrected after the 1000 years, and so lose out on that special Kingdom blessing due to their disobedience and unbelief.

Might I say that I also do not believe in the UNBIBLICAL doctrine of the "Millennium"... The "1000" years is found in a book of SYMBOLS which REVEALS JESUS CHRIST...

That it is taken as a LITERAL "period" is the beginning of confusion, whether it be by BELIEVERS in Eternal Torment, Annhilation, OR the Salvation of ALL...

Also... those who believe in the Salvation of ALL MEN, do have differences concerning the Revelation, and its depictions. I for one do not believe in further torment beyond this life... and believe THIS LIFE, ...is... the LAKE of FIRE...

The 1st resurrection is NOW for the Kingdom of GOD is entered, NOW... and ALL that partake of that resurrection (which IS the state of the ETERNAL) must still enter into the SLEEP of DEATH.

It is the WORD in us, that NEVER DIES... ("Never" means - NOT at ANY TIME) Even the flesh of CHRIST, ...died... but the WORD which IS ETERNAL and which, was IN HIM, ...NEVER DIES...

GOD, which IS the WORD, ...cannot DIE... He is EVERLASTING... without beginning or ...END...

MEN are: ...(1) ordained to DIE: Heb 9:27, ...(2) born DEAD Matt 8:22 -- Ps 51:5, ...(3) DUST, which must RETURN to it: Gen 3:19

They will have to be punished, which won't be nice but they will be reconciled so that God will be all in all (1 Corinthians 15:24-28) and then will be the restoration of all things Acts 3:21- or say it is claimed. I have come across many scriptures that SEEM to be saying that God is going to reconcile everyone and I welcome anyone to explain the meaning of these verses if they DON'T mean EVERYONE. I will supply the verses for anyone interested.

This is pretty much, RIGHT ON! The Bible, end to end, speaks of the ALL MERCIFUL and LOVING character of GOD... He is about LIFE, not death... and He is about MERCY and FORGIVENESS, not holding men hostage as a target for torment...

The "punishment" is NOW Catherine... This is what is encompassed in: AIDS, Cancer, Heart disease, pollution, war, infidelities, disappointment, mental disorders, famine, ...the list of sorrows on earth, is endless! The ESCAPE from these is DEATH... And it is not GOD's program to set us in this world of continuing torment, to resurrect us to even MORE and WORSE ones!

He is about teaching us (in this temporal time realm) the difference between WHO and WHAT He, IS... (GOOD/LOVE/HARMONY/HEALTH/LIFE/JOY/PEACE...the list is also ENDLESS!) ...and WHO and WHAT He, IS NOT!

We are here to observe and experience the SORROWS which represent the OPPOSITE of WHO and WHAT He IS... That He be GLORIFIED forever for those differences!

The GOSPEL is PEACE...

GOD of PEACE: Rom 15:33 -- Heb 13:20 -- 1 cor 14:33 -- Phil 4:9 -- 1 Thess 5:23 -- 2 Thess 3:16 -- Heb 7:2

GOSPEL of PEACE: Rom 10:15 -- Eph 6:15 -- Col 1:20

NOT worse scenarios to come... LOVE casts out FEAR... 1 John 4:18

Those who teach HELL... are teaching FEAR...

You are on the RIGHT track sister...

Peace...

...willieH

[willieH]

willieH: Hi jlay...

willieH: Men are nothing but "clod's of dirt"... and God is as IMPARTIAL toward one, as He is to another. Also, the WORK of SALVATION is EXCLUSIVELY His... so in order to maintain that IMPARTIALITY, if He performs the WORK of SALVATION in "one clod" that claim of IMPARTIALITY requires Him to perform that same WORK in ALL other "CLODS"... (Impartiality = Acts 10:34 -- Rom 2:11 - Gal 2:6 -- Eph 6:9 -- 2 Sam 14:14 -- Job 34:19 -- Mark 12:14 -- 2 Chron 19:7 -- Prov 28:21 -- Col 3:25)

Before I start, I mean this with all the Love and warmth of our Heavenly Father and Savior...

I might warn you that you just might just be in over your head to discuss these matters with me, jlay (maybe not)... If this answer is an example of more to come, ...well... I guess, ...you shall do what you shall do...

I am a simple (and without formal education), man of 63 years, but I am very studied in the WORD (33 years on a "Him & me" basis), and you shall likely fail to successfully employ Orthodox theological viewpoints... on the contrary... if you really wish to learn and expand, please pray before reading my answers to you... (like, right now might be a good time!)

I endeavor to NEVER note another as INCORRECT... (at least I do my best not to! )... We are either REVEALED or VEILED concerning the WORD of GOD and any aspect OF IT... Therefore, I shall not determine you incorrect unless you fail to provide BIBLICAL support for OPINIONS... so far in this answer you have provided NONE...

You begin your NON-Scriptural oration with this:

I think this fails to take into account the whole counsel.

"I think"? ...This is just a statement of opinion which is not based upon the WHOLE COUNSEL...

As I observe, it is this "I think" OPINION, that FAILS to take into account the WHOLE COUNSEL... for the following reasons...

(btw.. This is your opinion and you are welcome to it... I do not post to change anyone, and it is not my agenda to do so... Only GOD can change a human heart or enlighten it)...

For example God spared Noah and his family, yet condemned the rest of the world.

This is a selective observation, ...GOD temporarily "spared" Noah (who by the way, promptly sinned after his "sparing") and his family... NOAH in FACT, ...died... He was NOT permanently "SPARED" -- Gen 9:29

GOD did NOT CONDEMN the World, for He does NOT CONDEMN... It is your observation of the appointment to death of ALL human beings which were lost in the FLOOD, except Noah and his family, as a ..."CONDEMNATION"...

The WORD says no such thing of the FLOOD... It notes the act of GOD... which said: "The end of all flesh is come before Me" Gen 6:13 The word CONDEMNATION is put to use BY YOU, not by the WORD of GOD.

GOD never changes... Mal 3:6 CHRIST is the WORD, and the WORD was sent NOT to CONDEMN -- John 3:17 -- and the WORD is GOD, and does therefore NOT CONDEMN...

CONDEMNATION is left to MAN in his NATURAL and UNREGENERATE heart and mind...

GRACE, on the other hand DEMANDS forgiveness of enemies, and DISPLAYED this forgiveness... CHRIST went to the death of the CROSS, and just before DYING, in the face of those who CONDEMNED Him to death, He said: "Father FORGIVE them, for they KNOW NOT, what they DO"...

GOD demonstrated the elimation of SIN by means of the FLOOD... ALL MEN are destined and APPOINTED for DEATH... Heb 9:27... those which met DEATH in the FLOOD, simply met THEIR APPOINTMENT, to it...

Trying to attach human understanding of impartiality can lead us to a wrong understanding of God's character. Jesus could have easily have turned to the unrepentent theif on this other side and cleared up this issue real quick. He didn't

coulda, woulda, shoulda... ...do NOT exist. These as you demonstrate above, are nothing but HUMAN IMAGINATIONS which do not/or did not take place!! What HAPPENS... HAPPENS, jlay! And what HAPPENED was NOT CHRIST, as YOU have IMAGINED and SPECULATED, ..."turning the unrepentent thief on this other side"...

And your IMAGINED scenario above, only further serves as YOUR personal SPECULATION that had He done so, ...it would've "cleared up the issue real quick"! You are for ONE, unable, and for TWO, ...UNAUTHORIZED, to make such a determination...

The WORD tells us what HAPPENED... the WORD is TRUTH and the WORD cannot be CHANGED... so your IMAGINED scenario is found to be CONTRARY to it...

God's grace is available to all men. But it is appointed once to die, and then the judgment.

YES, my friend jlay, but please don't just STOP THERE! ...and where SIN ABOUNDED, ...GRACE did MUCH MORE ABOUND! Rom 5:20

And please jlay, don't even STOP THERE! ...And when GOD'S JUDGMENT is IN the EARTH...

Isaiah 26:9 ...for WHEN Thy JUDGMENTS are IN THE EARTH... the INHABITANTS of the WORLD, ...will LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS...

JUDGMENT is not a BAD THING bro... as you seem to hope to propose... it is a GOOD THING, for it removes UNRIGHTEOUSNESS from the OBJECTS of the WORLD, GOD SO LOVES... John 3:16

I hope to read through more and comment later.

Can't wait!

...willieH

[jlay]

GOD did NOT CONDEMN the World, for He does NOT CONDEMN... It is your observation of the appointment to death of ALL human beings which were lost in the FLOOD, except Noah and his family, as a ..."CONDEMNATION"...

Uhh, OK
Willie, people think. And the phrase, "i think" is a commn part of the english language. Someone saying "I think" does not mean their comment is not rooted in sound doctrine.

If by not being up to your level, you mean using color and overloading on smilies, you are correct.

I'm not going to get in a debate about semantics. The bible is full of instances where God executes judgement and wrath due to sin. A condemning act. Daniel specifically brings up "condemnation" in Daniel 11.

Jesus warned us not to fear those who can kill the body, but HE who can destroy the soul and body in Hell. That would put the power of condemnation in God's hand.

GOD never changes... Mal 3:6 CHRIST is the WORD, and the WORD was sent NOT to CONDEMN -- John 3:17 -- and the WORD is GOD, and does therefore NOT CONDEMN...

Jesus WAS sent to save. Amen. But, in John 3 Jesus stated that those who do not receive the son are CONDEMNED already.

Paul specifies in Romans 8 that there is now no condemnation for those who are IN Christ Jesus. So, there would be condemnation for those who are not.

GOD demonstrated the elimation of SIN by means of the FLOOD... ALL MEN are destined and APPOINTED for DEATH... Heb 9:27... those which met DEATH in the FLOOD, simply met THEIR APPOINTMENT, to it...

That really undermines the seriousness of God's judgement on mankind at that moment. Noah was spared for a reason. The rest were not spared for a reason. the flood is clearly a result of God's judgment upon mankind for his level of depravity.

coulda, woulda, shoulda... ...do NOT exist. These as you demonstrate above, are nothing but HUMAN IMAGINATIONS which do not/or did not take place!! What HAPPENS... HAPPENS, jlay! And what HAPPENED was NOT CHRIST, as YOU have IMAGINED and SPECULATED, ..."

Yep, that's my point.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi jlay...

Hi jlay, ...thanks for your answer.

willieH: GOD did NOT CONDEMN the World, for He does NOT CONDEMN... It is your observation of the appointment to death of ALL human beings which were lost in the FLOOD, except Noah and his family, as a ..."CONDEMNATION"...

Uhh, OK
Willie, people think. And the phrase, "i think" is a commn part of the english language. Someone saying "I think" does not mean their comment is not rooted in sound doctrine.

...Uhh, OK...
"I think" is the opening phrase of OPINION... And there is nothing inherently WRONG with an "opinion", but If you wish to propose "sound doctrine", then use the Scriptures upon which you will base that "opinion"

If by not being up to your level, you mean using color and overloading on smilies, you are correct.

I have my communication style... that "style" does not indicate any "level"... I just emphasize with those things... and I did not mean them to be offensive to you, I apologize if you took them as such...

I'm not going to get in a debate about semantics. The bible is full of instances where God executes judgement and wrath due to sin. A condemning act. Daniel specifically brings up "condemnation" in Daniel 11.

You need to be specific brother, are you afraid to do so? I exclusively use the error-ridden KJV, and could not find ANY form of the word CONDEMN in Daniel 11... dont make me do your work for you. If you wish to USE Scripture, than be pointed and direct about it, not placing goose chases in front of me... I will ALWAYS be DIRECT in my Scriptural referencing, for I am CONFIDENT in it. And have commited MOST of them to MEMORY for it is in the HEART that the WORD shall give it's rest.

If you wish to find NATURAL approaches to GOD's method, then, ...the OT, is where you shall find them... the NT, is where you see the work of GRACE concerning JUDGMENT... the WRATH of GOD is come against UNGODLINESS and UNRIGHTEOUSNESS ...OF... men -- Rom 1:18... so if you have EVER done anything UNGODLY or UNRIGHTEOUS, then the WRATH of GOD ...IS... come against you... let time flow... you shall see that YOU REAP what you SOW. If you have SOWN UNRIGHTEOUSLY, you shall REAP UNRIGHTEOUSNESS in JUDGMENT. The JUDGMENT is NOW -- John 12:31 ...NOW, is uhh, ...NOW!

The OT is the demonstration of "eye for eye" oriented JUDGMENT/Justice... the NT is the demonstration of GRACE oriented JUDGMENT/Justice. JESUS taught that this (eye for eye vengence) was NO LONGER to be so: Matt 5:43-44... God noting through the SON whom He SENT to DO and SPEAK His WILL... gave the command to FORGIVE, not to seek vengence and retaliation...

If you have not yet determined this, then you have not yet recognized the teachings of the GRACE of JESUS CHRIST and the DIVINE ORDER of CAPTIVITY and DELIVERANCE... Jer 29:14 - 1 Cor 15:46

Jesus warned us not to fear those who can kill the body, but HE who can destroy the soul and body in Hell. That would put the power of condemnation in God's hand.

FIRST --- JESUS ...NEVER... used the word "hell" He only used (2 of) the WORDS which are erroneously translated to the catch-all English word "HELL" (hades & Gehenna) on SEVEN total occasions in over 1200+ days of ministry... ...His emphasis was NEVER on this, for His mission was about LIFE, not DEATH, which Orthodox Chrisitianity centers itself upon...

SECOND -- The verse you have not bothered to name says: "He that ...is ABLE... destroy..." GOD is able to DO anything, but because He is ABLE to DO a given thing, certainly does not mean that HE SHALL DO IT... CHRIST was NOT teaching these to be "AFRAID" of GOD, ...you miss the point, ...He was noting that MEN are not to be FEARED, encouraging them to RESPECT the presence of GOD, instead of FEARING the presence and DISTORTED abilities men... FEAR is CAST OUT by LOVE -- 1 John 4:18

For clarity of understanding, let me note this point by point SCRIPTURALLY, ...that way you (nor anyone else reading this) shall have an EXCUSE for not understanding:

(1) CHRIST is the WORD and EXPRESS IMAGE of the invisible God... Heb 1:3...

(2) He further stated that He came OUT of and was SENT of the FATHER... John 8:42...

(3) CHRIST also noted that He did NOTHING except the WILL of the Father... John 5:30

(4) The Father sent Him NOT to "CONDEMN"... John 3:17... (which means that it is WILL of the Father that as HIS WILL is exhibited by CHRIST, that NO CONDEMNATION be done)...

(5) Neither the FATHER -- Mal 3:6 -- or the SON -- Heb 13:8 -- EVER CHANGES... What they ARE, they WERE and what they WERE, they WILL BE...

(6) ALL JUDGMENT has been given BY the FATHER, unto the SON -- John 5:22

(SUMMARY) That Scripture notes that the Son is the IMAGE of the FATHER (1), ...and that CHRIST noted He was SENT by the FATHER, ...and that the Son did NOTHING but the WILL of the FATHER (3), ...and in DOING that WILL He stated that He was SENT NOT to CONDEMN (4), ...and that neither the FATHER or the SON, ever CHANGES (5), ...and that ALL JUDGMENT was given unto the SON, by the FATHER (6), ...means that CONDEMNATION is NOT a part of the JUDGMENT of GOD! Otherwise, they are BOTH seen as CHANGING, or the Son did not DO as the FATHER WILLED... one or the other...

If you cannot see this... then you have failed to gain UNDERSTANDING of the MISSION and ACCOMPLISMENT of the "GOOD NEWS" called the GOSPEL of PEACE.

willieH: GOD never changes... Mal 3:6 CHRIST is the WORD, and the WORD was sent NOT to CONDEMN -- John 3:17 -- and the WORD is GOD, and does therefore NOT CONDEMN...

Jesus WAS sent to save. Amen. But, in John 3 Jesus stated that those who do not receive the son are CONDEMNED already.

EVERY man that "believes" brother... before He gains the AUTHORING of FAITH done by CHRIST (the WORD)... is CONDEMNED by His own SIN... and only when the FAITH to BELIEVE is AUTHORED in him, is that CONDEMNATION removed, for CHRIST tasted DEATH for EVERY MAN -- Heb 2:9, ...each to be TESTIFIED in DUE TIME -- 1 Tim 2:6 That TESTIMONY is done BY the WORD in each... IOW the WORD "testifies" Salvation within each man who has been "ransomed", ...one by one by one...

Paul specifies in Romans 8 that there is now no condemnation for those who are IN Christ Jesus. So, there would be condemnation for those who are not.

Paul also noted: "ALL have sinned and come short of the GLORY of GOD" -- Rom 3:23 -- bro. Before YOU were DRAGGED to the WORD -- John 6:44 -- you were in the state of SIN which CONDEMNED you... and you could do absolutely NOTHING about it... for as John 6:44 PLAINLY states: No man ...CAN... come to me except the Father DRAW [Drag=Greek] him to Me...

It is the WORK of GOD to SAVE... and NO MAN, is able to "save him/herself"... DELIVERANCE is completely the WORK of GOD, so that NO MAN can BOAST over another -- Eph 2:8-9

Unfortunately, Christianity does JUST that, as have YOU in this post... BOASTING that you are in a state of SALVATION, while using the TONGUE -- James 3:6-9 -- to CONDEMN those made in the IMAGE of GOD...

willieH: GOD demonstrated the elimation of SIN by means of the FLOOD... ALL MEN are destined and APPOINTED for DEATH... Heb 9:27... those which met DEATH in the FLOOD, simply met THEIR APPOINTMENT, to it...

That really undermines the seriousness of God's judgement on mankind at that moment. Noah was spared for a reason. The rest were not spared for a reason. the flood is clearly a result of God's judgment upon mankind for his level of depravity.

Let me ask you a question jlay... Did GOD bring Salvation to you, because you were "good enough" to save? The Savior said: "Why callest thou ME GOOD?" ...are YOU better than He? And if NOT, is it not quite apparent that GOD brought YOU to Salvation of HIS CHOOSING? And if He is IMPARTIAL, than what He did for YOU, must He not DO for another?

GOD "judges" ALL Mankind to DIE ONCE... and the Graveyards of FULL of this evidence. You and I both have an APPOINTMENT to meet as well... Just as those SINNERS died in the FLOOD, and the SINNER known as NOAH died as well, so shall ALL SINNERS meet that APPOINTMENT.

I do not in any way belittle the process that GOD designs for each. The FLOOD was NOT a demonstration of an ETERNAL JUDGMENT, simply because the ones "SPARED" from it, ...DIED as well... What the FLOOD did demonstrate... is that SOME shall HEAR GOD in this lifetime, and shine His LIGHT and Do HIS WILL while within the DARKNESS... nothing more.

You do not get an extra swimming pool or bowling alley in your "mansion" for following God's commands... The reward is in the DOING, for it is your REASONABLE SERVICE to DO as GOD COMMANDS -- Rom 12:1 ...all NOAH did was his REASONABLE service... the others DID NOT.

willieH: coulda, woulda, shoulda... ...do NOT exist. These as you demonstrate above, are nothing but HUMAN IMAGINATIONS which do not/or did not take place!! What HAPPENS... HAPPENS, jlay! And what HAPPENED was NOT CHRIST, as YOU have IMAGINED and SPECULATED, ..."

Yep, that's my point.

"coulda, woulda's & shoulda's, ...make no point! THAT, dear brother, ...IS the POINT! CHRIST did NOT do your IMAGINATION... and your IMAGINED outcome, did NOT occur either!

...willieH

[cslewislover]

"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus . . ." (Romans 8:1a NIV). This doesn't say "there is now no condemnation for everyone . . ."

"Why not say--as we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we say--'Let us do evil that good may result'? Their condemnation is deserved" (Romans 3:8 NIV).

"In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping" (2 Peter 2:3 NIV).

"For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless . . ." (Jude 4 NIV).

http://www.bethinking.org.uk/suffering/ ... t-hell.htm

[willieH]

willieH: Hi CSLL...

"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus . . ." (Romans 8:1a NIV). This doesn't say "there is now no condemnation for everyone . . ."

"Why not say--as we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we say--'Let us do evil that good may result'? Their condemnation is deserved" (Romans 3:8 NIV).

"In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping" (2 Peter 2:3 NIV).

"For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless . . ." (Jude 4 NIV).

http://www.bethinking.org.uk/suffering/ ... t-hell.htm

This is actually quite easy to address...

(1) CHRIST was SENT NOT to CONDEMN (and did NOT CONDEMN during His ministry), and

(2) ALWAYS did the WILL of YHVH (which sent Him NOT to CONDEMN)... and BOTH are UNCHANGING entites... so,

(3) if the WORD was SENT NOT to CONDEMN, by the One (YHVH) WILLING it (the WORD) NOT to CONDEMN... then

(4) HOW do you derive CONDEMNATION coming from EITHER?

I will be nterested in hearing your answer! (if you answer)

...willieH

[jlay]

Just to clarify I stated Daniel 11, but it is actually Daniel 12 that says some will awaken to everlasting contempt.

"At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.