Evidence for God from Science

Fürstentum Liechtenstein wrote:My compliments to you, Zoegirl. Your answer - above - to madscientist impressed me.

FL

Me too.

zoegirl wrote:This is where the Holy Spirit convicts each of us at different levels of the intimacy scale. I think, in those 5 minutes, we are presented with a choice....Arousal *is* a physical response and to some degree we do not control it. We may see someone of the opposite sex and just-bam- become stimulated from their looks. It is as this moment that we must train ourselves to look away and not allow that arousal to be fed.

In those 5 minutes when you realize you are being stimulated, you are then in control of your response. You can pull away and disengage from that person....you can walk away....you could leave and take a cold shower....whatever....but I think that we step into sin when we *choose* to entertain that arousal .

Obviously, those involuntary arousals at night or sudden arousals that arise (ahem) so unexpectantly are not under our control, but our continuing the arousal through thought or deed then reflects a choice on our part.

aha i see. kinda what i thought. but also, if any sort of "wanted" arousal is sin - does not this lead to frustration or something? Because we as humans are living beings... isnt it also how much of it? Spending an hour per day arousing oneself would be a sin; however, 5 minutes per week would not. I mean, unless you decide to get married, how do you get that frustration or "lust" out? This even produces good hormones and joy or something like that I heard. Now we are to take care of our health etc. And if let's say we are not aroused for a few years or run away EVERY time we could have some of it, we are going to end up quite mad. Not that i dont avoid; I dont really have occasions since I dont form part of the people who are engaged in constant flirting and stuff. But for them it's like their daily life and when i see them touching and flirting and that and i think on myself that i only want ONE single person to do it, to a little extent - i feel frustrated and mad. Because if they can do it sinfully and enjoy it and i just like one girl... you know what i mean... then i become psychologically frustrated and kinda jealous or what. So do we have to give up every opportunity of arousal outside of marriage?

zoegirl wrote:Um, again, why would you even watch it if not for arousal? I think that's a bit of a silly question....However, there are other issues here.

Well eh yeah i know what you mean. Maybe to try and overcome yourself? Try not do get aroused by it? Maybe after a while of doing so, one can learn to control himself and then not get aroused when it comes to real life. Well maybe that's completely wrong but may not be.

Heh i know this is a harsh issue but this makes it the more interesting... we are human beings who face lots of temptations. I mean, if sex and that were unpleasurable we wouldnt be tempted, would we? Some sort of logic or overcoming must result. It's just the extent to which we do it.

madscientist wrote:

zoegirl wrote:This is where the Holy Spirit convicts each of us at different levels of the intimacy scale. I think, in those 5 minutes, we are presented with a choice....Arousal *is* a physical response and to some degree we do not control it. We may see someone of the opposite sex and just-bam- become stimulated from their looks. It is as this moment that we must train ourselves to look away and not allow that arousal to be fed.

In those 5 minutes when you realize you are being stimulated, you are then in control of your response. You can pull away and disengage from that person....you can walk away....you could leave and take a cold shower....whatever....but I think that we step into sin when we *choose* to entertain that arousal .

Obviously, those involuntary arousals at night or sudden arousals that arise (ahem) so unexpectantly are not under our control, but our continuing the arousal through thought or deed then reflects a choice on our part.

aha i see. kinda what i thought. but also, if any sort of "wanted" arousal is sin - does not this lead to frustration or something? Because we as humans are living beings... isnt it also how much of it? Spending an hour per day arousing oneself would be a sin; however, 5 minutes per week would not. I mean, unless you decide to get married, how do you get that frustration or "lust" out? This even produces good hormones and joy or something like that I heard. Now we are to take care of our health etc. And if let's say we are not aroused for a few years or run away EVERY time we could have some of it, we are going to end up quite mad.

You will not go mad with frustration!! (There would be a lot of crazy people in the world if that were the case!!).

1) First of all, it is not the TIME spent that establishes something as sin. Stealing 5 dollars worth of merchandise is still stealing. The *consequences* may be different bu the sin is the same

2) Secondly, this type of arousal will not produce joy. Lust does not give joy, but rather guilt and shame. It is a self-centered perversion of a gift from God.

3) Finally, There are plenty of other things that also release the kinds of hormones you keep bringing up. Exercise, socializing with friends (who, by the way, the people you are describing don't seem like the encouragin and uplifting kind!), and even prayer can release those chemicals.

Nobody dies from unsatisfied lust.....

mad wrote: Not that i dont avoid; I dont really have occasions since I dont form part of the people who are engaged in constant flirting and stuff. But for them it's like their daily life and when i see them touching and flirting and that and i think on myself that i only want ONE single person to do it, to a little extent - i feel frustrated and mad. Because if they can do it sinfully and enjoy it and i just like one girl... you know what i mean... then i become psychologically frustrated and kinda jealous or what. So do we have to give up every opportunity of arousal outside of marriage?

yes....I'm sorry, that sounds so uncompromising.....but the proper and good and joyful sexual arousal and satisfaction you seem to be describing is found in marriage.

Here's another way to look at it. If you do not have discipline NOW, what makes you think you will have it AFTER you are married? There will times in any committed relationship when the ooh-aah lovey-dovey emotional attachment runs dry (I'm not saying this is a permanent condition, but a hard day/anger/depresion/etc can makes that emotional attachment dissappear). At this point, will you succumb to temptation?

Saying all this, obviously all of us who have posted struggle, and this is not something (I would venture to say) that anyone has conquered. But this does not allow us to condone it.

mad wrote:

zoegirl wrote:Um, again, why would you even watch it if not for arousal? I think that's a bit of a silly question....However, there are other issues here.

Well eh yeah i know what you mean. Maybe to try and overcome yourself? Try not do get aroused by it? Maybe after a while of doing so, one can learn to control himself and then not get aroused when it comes to real life. Well maybe that's completely wrong but may not be.

I doubt one can completely eradicate those automatic reactions.....but the disciline allows us to shift our thoughts.

Speaking as a male here, our brains are wired so that having sex (with attractive young women) is the ultimate aim. Basically to make babies, as healthy as can be, and carry on the human race. If you believe that God created man, including his brain and hormones, then you have to ask- is this a test of our will? Or does he want us to have fun and enjoy each others bodies?

I don't believe it is a test, and remember that God could easily have developed another (non-sexual) method of procreation. So why raise the idea of sex/sexual desire at all?

timboo wrote:Speaking as a male here, our brains are wired so that having sex (with attractive young women) is the ultimate aim. Basically to make babies, as healthy as can be, and carry on the human race. If you believe that God created man, including his brain and hormones, then you have to ask- is this a test of our will? Or does he want us to have fun and enjoy each others bodies?

I don't believe it is a test, and remember that God could easily have developed another (non-sexual) method of procreation. So why raise the idea of sex/sexual desire at all?

If you don't believe it is a test, then you must support your other theory, that He wants us to have fun and enjoy each other's bodies.

Think about this in the context of a relationship... .....using it with a girlfriend or wife someday?! "Gee, honey, my brain is wired to look at every attractive woman and perhaps even have sex with her!!! Stop being jealous....it doesn't mean a thing.... He wants me to have fun and enjoy each other's bodies. " Yeah....that's gonna work.

And if that sounds ridiculous (well, when I find the *right* woman I won't cheat on her....)....think on this.....at what point will you develop the discipline to ensure this won't happen???!?!? The discipline you bring to *any* relationship is a fair indication of how you behave and think IN that relationship.

Does He want us to eat food? Or does He want us to eat the *proper* food in the right place with the right discipline?

This may seem like a non-sequitor, but the desire for food, like the desire for sex, was created BY God for the right context. Sin has tainted each of these. Gluttony, like lust, is a perversion of the natural design from God.

The brains and bodies of BOTH men and women are designed for arousal, certainly different types and speeds and responses. God certainly designed us for the enjoyment of sex, but because of the effect of sin, this enjoyment is contaminated by lust, the objectification of the opposite sex.

Christ's words: If you look at another women with lust, you have committed adultery. Certainly, the "enjoyment of each other bodies" is limited to a man and woman bound in marriage.

The Bible clearly supports sexual enjoyment, but in the proper contect.

zoegirl wrote: You will not go mad with frustration!! (There would be a lot of crazy people in the world if that were the case!!).

Ah ok well dunno. Sorry if the post sounded like im the one who struggles with lust and has arousal; it's just in general terms for the people who do!! Yes the people - "friends" I would not really call them rather classmates and i dont spend much time with them only at school... and some of them seem to be just like that; there's a "hot" girl and i hear them talk about it and some of their comments are rather lustful. At times i have no idea who it even is. But i am not saying i dont find some of the people attractive who they also do.

zoegirl wrote: 1) First of all, it is not the TIME spent that establishes something as sin. Stealing 5 dollars worth of merchandise is still stealing. The *consequences* may be different bu the sin is the same

2) Secondly, this type of arousal will not produce joy. Lust does not give joy, but rather guilt and shame. It is a self-centered perversion of a gift from God.

3) Finally, There are plenty of other things that also release the kinds of hormones you keep bringing up. Exercise, socializing with friends (who, by the way, the people you are describing don't seem like the encouragin and uplifting kind!), and even prayer can release those chemicals.

Nobody dies from unsatisfied lust.....

Yes it's true - sorry if i look like an idiot. But obviously the more it happens the greater the sin is - or isnt it? As for arousal - doesnt it? Well again, im speaking for them the people who do it often etc - but doesnt it for a while? Due to the hormones and all that. But i mean yes - if the person regards this as bad evil lust and sin then it does bring shame and guilt but if one doesnt care... - just like murder, for example. Normally, we are to feel ashamed and guilty. But some feel proud... it's just the point of view we take. as for the hormones and good things - yes there are... but again, some are easier to do than others. And the instantaneous "joy" or what it is during arousal i think has a greater effect on our psychology and physiology... why would people then do it i mean? How nice if we said to our married partner "Ah no i dont want sex instead im gona run in the forest..."

zoegirl wrote: yes....I'm sorry, that sounds so uncompromising.....but the proper and good and joyful sexual arousal and satisfaction you seem to be describing is found in marriage.
Here's another way to look at it. If you do not have discipline NOW, what makes you think you will have it AFTER you are married? There will times in any committed relationship when the ooh-aah lovey-dovey emotional attachment runs dry (I'm not saying this is a permanent condition, but a hard day/anger/depresion/etc can makes that emotional attachment dissappear). At this point, will you succumb to temptation?

Yes that is nice. But we are to marry once only. The thing is, what to do before we marry? For example, i have no intention whatsoever in looking for someone to marry right now; im still too young. And for those who never choose to marry; does it mean they will never be able to experience the sexual pleasure unless they decide to sin? it's easy to say "marriage solves the problems" or "there you'll find it" but if someone has not reached that time yet, should he/she just struggle with lust or what?
As you said, of course marriage may not solve it all. and the discipline you're talking about may not improve. But if someone is married and feels like having sex, he can do it on his partner... if however a person experiencing such frustration and need isnt married what to do? Then it becomes worse. So this is what i was referring to. Obviously adultery is still common during marriage, i cant deny that.

zoegirl wrote: I doubt one can completely eradicate those automatic reactions.....but the disciline allows us to shift our thoughts.

What is the discipline exactly - learning to control ourselves? If that is then why cant it be done by exposing ourselves to such things and overcoming the automatic nervous system by using our voluntary one? Cant we do it? Learn to control ourselves, not get aroused? Maybe we'll learn to control ourselves in life as well. But i dont know i could be completely wrong.

timboo wrote:Speaking as a male here, our brains are wired so that having sex (with attractive young women) is the ultimate aim. Basically to make babies, as healthy as can be, and carry on the human race. If you believe that God created man, including his brain and hormones, then you have to ask- is this a test of our will? Or does he want us to have fun and enjoy each others bodies?

I don't believe it is a test, and remember that God could easily have developed another (non-sexual) method of procreation. So why raise the idea of sex/sexual desire at all?

Interesting. well again we get to the male/female difference. If its just our brains - then....?? We are kinda excused or so - arent we? I mean we have free will and that but still. It's like the thing that we behave how we are and can't choose our nature and all that. if we carry genes which make us angry easily, violent and nasty people are we (somewhat) excused? Now if a person who hasnt got those genes behaves the same way is it any worse?
I think it's more the test as with other things. To be tempted. And yeah if procreation werent sexual and pleasurable the human race and other species would not continue - so that's the reason - the motivation of reproducing is the pleasure.

And also, why are some people "sexual beasts" and others seem to be not so interested in the other gender and lust? I know people (like those i mentioned) who constantly go after girls and flirt and that. I also know girls who live for that - make out, flirt and that. Then i know guys who dont really talk and do about this and i also know such girls.
So why is this? Genetics? Personality? Brain chemistry? Free will? Can we do something about it - can i become a flirty person who flirts and that and can they become like i am now? Is it something we can influence, we are born with? Just like other things - one goes after money, the other after this and other after that?

Zoe wrote:I doubt one can completely eradicate those automatic reactions.....but the disciline allows us to shift our thoughts.

I like what Zoe wrote here. I get that she is not saying that discipline it'self is not what helps us to overcome temptations, but that it can help us to focus on the one who promises us grace and an escape to temptation...it's a very fine line. Just like the law never saved anybody, but it did make it easier for the obeyer of it to focus on God, which inturn pleased God and inclined him to bless the person.

Just a thought.

Posted here before etc. Now have some more questions about it. Well, it's some situation...
Is it bad/sinful if we get aroused? is the actual thing of being aroused sinful? If not, should we try and stop it?
Imagine this: you have a female friend who sometimes leans against you etc, puts her feet on you, comes closer to you because it's more comfortable; then you move 1 cm and then she again moves so that a part of her body touches you. Now; if you get aroused - is this sinful? If yes, what should one do? Move away? I mean, sounds somewhat unreal. OK, what if the girl is your girlfriend? I presume you have the right to at least get aroused by your gf... dont we!? What would it be if any touches etc resulting in arousal were dismissed; then the two wouldnt even hold together...
So, i wonder whether it is sinful to allow others to touch us etc when it makes us aroused. There are 2 "wills" or voices in me, one saying that if it is their choice and i allow them, im not really pursuing it so it's fine.... then the other says i should move away. But often this could look silly... someone touches us, gives us a massage or etc and as soon as it arouses us we "flee away"... is this what we should do? Or is this arousal simply a by-product of what happens; that this arousal is not bad unless it forces us to do something lustful?
In marriage, being aroused by partner is fine. If one aint married, should we suppress all arousal? There's bad one such as from watching porn and mastrubaion etc - i totally avoid these things. But if then one does as i describe above... it's sort of natural to stay in; i dont think im lusting but dont know whether im doing right thing and what should i do...

One thing says do as your conscience tells you. But there have been examples where one does wrong and feels not wrong and when one doesnt do wrong but is convonced he did bad because he BELIEVES he does wrong... e.g., in middle ages wet dreams were thought sinful - looks like, then, what is in our conscience is also result of conditioning and society and what values we brought up with. Then imagine also differences in denominations - before God it's right or wrong; if one feels as his denomination says then this shows conscience is personal and depednds on what we believe, rather than some universal truth.

So, after all this what should one do? Run away every time one touches us so that it arouses us and abstain from all sexual instances until marriage??

I haven't read the rest of this thread, so I'm just responding to your latest post, madscientist. Becoming aroused in certain situations seems natural to me, but also, depending on the situation, it would show that you want to become aroused. You brought up massage. Some people are fine with this, others not. I would avoid anything that arouses me since it can lead to other things that I know I shouldn't be doing. Besides being very frustrating, it opens the door to more sin. If you need to avoid having the opposite sex rub up against you, then why not avoid it? I think that's what a lot of people do.

Titus 2:11-12, "For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age..." ESV

Titus 2:11-12, "For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people. 12 It trains us to renounce ungodly living and worldly passions so that we might live sensible, honest, and godly lives in the present world..." ISV

Titus 2:11-12, For God has revealed his grace for the salvation of all people. 12 That grace instructs us to give up ungodly living and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in this world..." GNB

What does the word say???
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Ok, seems as if it is "wrong" then. But what is wrong? Is it necessarily sinful? There are many "not-so-good" things that aren't sinful, just not good.
What makes something wrong? Is it the arousal which is sinful? The lustful ideas? In a masturbation thread it was discussed (general non-catholic view) that in it, what's wrong is not the act itself (intrinsically evil) but it is the ideas which escort this act. Then what's sinful in getting aroused? If being so in marriage is fine (and is it indeed in relationships?) then what would make it wrong?
Watching porn - we say it's bad, however what if one doesn't get aroused then is it bad? I don't do it because i was told it's bad so then i conditioned myself to say "it's nasty" in my mind just to avoid myself thinking it's good. What makes an act wrong then?

madscientist wrote:Ok, seems as if it is "wrong" then. But what is wrong? Is it necessarily sinful? There are many "not-so-good" things that aren't sinful, just not good.
What makes something wrong? Is it the arousal which is sinful? The lustful ideas? In a masturbation thread it was discussed (general non-catholic view) that in it, what's wrong is not the act itself (intrinsically evil) but it is the ideas which escort this act. Then what's sinful in getting aroused? If being so in marriage is fine (and is it indeed in relationships?) then what would make it wrong?
Watching porn - we say it's bad, however what if one doesn't get aroused then is it bad? I don't do it because i was told it's bad so then i conditioned myself to say "it's nasty" in my mind just to avoid myself thinking it's good. What makes an act wrong then?

Becoming aroused is natural and normal, but God wants us to confine the activity resulting from it to marriage. You ask what is wrong with becoming aroused, but if you become aroused outside of marriage, it will most likely lead to masturbation or sex outside of marriage. It's much better to just avoid becoming aroused (easier said than done, thus the struggle). From what I've read, the Catholic view takes a narrow view of sex, so it makes me think this is why you're asking these questions. If sex is for procreation only, then why are humans capable of having sex ALL OF THE TIME? How come we can become aroused at any time? Most or all (?) animals have sex only when they are fertile; a few animals are very playful with their mates at other times. So sex, the arousal and closeness it brings, is good and made for two people to enjoy each other, all the time; I don't see that it is just for making babies (so using contraceptives is OK, in my view). It is good and it is not just for procreation.

I also read, as far as masturbation goes, that the Catholic Church allows a woman to do this if her husband isn't bringing her to orgasm during sex--their reasoning was that it was indeed helpful in getting pregnant. So masturbation is OK if it makes one more fertile . . . one could perhaps run with that. I'm sorry I don't have the link to the page where I read this.

Porn is bad, even if a person doesn't get aroused by it (I don't think there are too many people like that). One, we have been saying that sex outside of marriage is wrong, and there's obviously a lot of sex outside of marriage going on there. You are promoting it by watching it. Two, it's people using each other, and using you too (for you to purchase the product, or some product); there could be teens involved illegally, and who knows what else that's simply exploitative. We're supposed to respect and love one another, not revel in others' sin (we're not even supposed to curse someone since they are a person God made). Three, it causes people to sin, most likely over and over again (simply by watching it you're thinking of having sex with those people, which is obviously fornication, and may be adultery, too). Even if you're married and watch porn together, there are still the same things wrong with it. Maybe some others can talk about this more - I just thought of these things off the top of my head.

madscientist wrote:Ok, seems as if it is "wrong" then. But what is wrong? Is it necessarily sinful? There are many "not-so-good" things that aren't sinful, just not good. What makes something wrong? Is it the arousal which is sinful? The lustful ideas? In a masturbation thread it was discussed (general non-catholic view) that in it, what's wrong is not the act itself (intrinsically evil) but it is the ideas which escort this act.... What makes an act wrong then?

Here is what the Bible says on these matters:

Lev 15:16-18, "If a man has an emission of semen, he shall bathe his whole body in water and be unclean until the evening. 17 And every garment and every skin on which the semen comes shall be washed with water and be unclean until the evening. 18 If a man lies with a woman and has an emission of semen, both of them shall bathe themselves in water and be unclean until the evening..." ESV

Deu 23:10-11, "If any man among you becomes unclean because of a nocturnal emission, then he shall go outside the camp. He shall not come inside the camp, 11 but when evening comes, he shall bathe himself in water, and as the sun sets, he may come inside the camp." ESV

We are not under the Law but under grace so... take a bath...

Now for the other issues:

1Th 4:1-6, "Finally, then, brothers, we ask and urge you in the Lord Jesus, that as you received from us how you ought to walk and to please God, just as you are doing, that you do so more and more. 2 For you know what instructions we gave you through the Lord Jesus. 3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from sexual immorality; 4 that each one of you know how to control his own body in holiness and honor, 5 not in the passion of lust like the Gentiles who do not know God; 6 that no one transgress and wrong his brother in this matter, because the Lord is an avenger in all these things, as we told you beforehand and solemnly warned you." ESV
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cslewislover wrote:You ask what is wrong with becoming aroused, but if you become aroused outside of marriage, it will most likely lead to masturbation or sex outside of marriage.

Well said; however what if it doesnt? See, it is the obvious thing to say, but i push the line by saying what if it doesnt... i really want to know WHAT is it that makes something evil. For example: if taking a drug/medicine/seeing a person/whatever makes you more angry, unfriendly etc then it is wise to abstain from that thing. E.g. if one KNOWS he would act aggressive if drunk, then he should not drink to such a stage. If one KNOWS being next to his gf would result in masturbation, then he should abstain. Agreed. But, what if one does x and y and then the result is that he does not become either aggressive or more lustful? SImilar to playing violent comp games - there are quite a few out there. You should stop playing it if it makes you more violent; however, some people say it makes them "calmer" as they have some fun playing. People said it is not sinful unless you become violent from the game - then we should try to remove the cause.
Often, however, we are able to flee away from situation (e.g. seeing some politician makes us angry or whatever) then we can change it to be less angry and "sin less" (but, justified anger is not sinful, so don't see the problem unless you for example take the anger on your wife/kids/dog...). But sometimes we are not so easily able to flee away from situation. Like a problem. Solve it or run away from it.

cslewislover wrote:I also read, as far as masturbation goes, that the Catholic Church allows a woman to do this if her husband isn't bringing her to orgasm during sex--their reasoning was that it was indeed helpful in getting pregnant. So masturbation is OK if it makes one more fertile . . . one could perhaps run with that. I'm sorry I don't have the link to the page where I read this.

And that you are being serious here? wow. Well thats probably some anticatholic site going on ancient sex ethics. Church was reformed tons of times... Reading a book on that; says similar that for example in middle ages it was considered a mortal sin for a woman to refuse sex to her husband. aah. ok - but this shows how a sin is just based on somethin irrational. we know today it's not case (hopefully, women are autonomous beings); however, back then ppl did think that - and maybe their conscience would tell them it's sinful. SHowing that sometimes what we think is sinful may not be and vice versa. As an example, i was at confession yesterday and priest said it's sinful to be superstitious (I knew what) but not to the extent u sin when u say "luckily..." and then you touch wood... that it's being superstitious. Well i never felt bad in doing it; so, as if my conscience didnt feel bad about it - and from this day onwards i may stop myself every time just not to sin. Did it become a sin all of a sudden? Did the fact that i KNEW about it made it sinful from that moment on?
Hm thats absurd however. Dont think it holds true. And yes; what i'm referring to is asking the non-catholic view/opinion. I know masturbation and contraception in catholic view are mortal sins - but the book i read says these have been based off wrong conclusions from St Augustine and St Thomas Aquinas. THat others have moved forward but western church remained there...
Ironically, you said the article said masturbation is ok if it makes one more fertile - well well, a psychological study showed males who watch porn before sex are more fertile - soo...?! How far one is able to push the line, how far one can go? We are not to do evil so that good comes out of it. I think this is pushing it... and so was the ethics back in middle ages...

B. W. wrote:3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from sexual immorality; 4 that each one of you know how to control his own body in holiness and honor,

Good, but how do we know what IS and what is NOT sexual immorality? I know homosexuality is, so is fornication (some say definition of this is disputed and did not necessarily have to mean sex outside of marriage - that's in the book i'm reading but im not going there...), so is bad lustful ideas etc. Treating others as objects is bad. Prostitution, etc etc. Getting aroused is... well, yes; it is the RESULT of lustful ideas, etc etc but again it is the basic question what makes one thing wrong. If you get aroused by your gf with whom this helps you to get closer to them... is that bad? I presume there IS some amount of arousal and dopamine release resulting from arousal... Now suppose - if friend X's arm/leg touching me would arouse me but friend Y's would not, then would it be totally OK to allow friend Y to touch me (comfort, friendship, closeness etc) but not friend X, all just on the basis of being aroused or not?

madscientist wrote:

B. W. wrote:3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from sexual immorality; 4 that each one of you know how to control his own body in holiness and honor,

Good, but how do we know what IS and what is NOT sexual immorality? I know homosexuality is, so is fornication (some say definition of this is disputed and did not necessarily have to mean sex outside of marriage - that's in the book i'm reading but im not going there...), so is bad lustful ideas etc. Treating others as objects is bad. Prostitution, etc etc. Getting aroused is... well, yes; it is the RESULT of lustful ideas, etc etc but again it is the basic question what makes one thing wrong. If you get aroused by your gf with whom this helps you to get closer to them... is that bad? I presume there IS some amount of arousal and dopamine release resulting from arousal... Now suppose - if friend X's arm/leg touching me would arouse me but friend Y's would not, then would it be totally OK to allow friend Y to touch me (comfort, friendship, closeness etc) but not friend X, all just on the basis of being aroused or not?

Gal 5:19-21, "19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God." ESV

Mat 5:28, "But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell." ESV

Deu 5:2, "'And you shall not covet your neighbor's wife. And you shall not desire your neighbor's house, his field, or his male servant, or his female servant, his ox, or his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor's." ESV

Remember - it is human nature to Justify our sin.

Are you and your GF afraid of mariage? Do you and she want to sped the rest of your lives together through all lifes storms and growing old? If not, then is she really your Girl friend or just an object to get each other off on? If that is the case - then that is sexual immorality...
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