Sargon wrote:I pray for patience. You guys still have not understood what I have said. I blame myself for not explaining clearly enough. You have misinterpreted my words, not purposefully I think.
First you call us friends, then enemies, now it seems you are taking part of the blame for not explaining things clearly enough. Sargon, at this point I don't know what to believe..
Sargon wrote:Let me try to establish a proposed timeline for you. Maybe that will help. Please try to read slowly, this can be a bit confusing if you aren't familiar with it.
Yes confusing your interpretation is... Proceed..
Sargon wrote:1) The Jaredites inhabited the land after the tower of Babel incident. Thousands of years later they fought a humongous battle on a hill that they called in their tongue, "Ramah". The Jaredites went all but extinct after this event.
Yes, the hill "Ramah" in North America. The Jaredite name for Hill Cumorah Ref: BoM in the index on page 289. Also don't forget that Mormon hid some plates there (please see Ether 15:11).
Sargon wrote:2)Nephi and his family sailed to the "Promised Land", and began keeping records of their people. These records were passed down from generation to generation for 1000 years until they reached the hands of Mormon. Mormon browsed through the immense history they had written on many many records and summarized much of it into one book.
2)The Nephites, fought an enormous battle on the same hill that the Jaredites called "Ramah", called Cumorah by the Nephites.
3) Mormon buried the many many records of his people that had been handed down to him in the Hill Cumorah, in the Land of Cumorah except for the book he had made as a summary of it all. That set of plates he handed to his son Moroni. Moroni held onto those plates and continued to write in them after his people had been exterminated in the battle.
1 Now I, Moroni, after having made an end of abridging the account of the people of Jared, I had supposed not to have written more, but I have not as yet perished; and I make not myself known to the Lamanites lest they should destroy me.
2 For behold, their wars are exceedingly fierce among themselves; and because of their hatred they put to death every Nephite that will not deny the Christ.
3 And I, Moroni, will not deny the Christ; wherefore, I wander whithersoever I can for the safety of mine own life.
4 Wherefore, I write a few more things, contrary to that which I had supposed; for I had supposed not to have written any more; but I write a few more things, that perhaps they may be of worth unto my brethren, the Lamanites, in some future day, according to the will of the Lord.
So there is a single Hill Cumorah, in the Land of Cumorah?
Moroni survived the battle, and wandered alone with the plates that his father Mormon had given, which were not buried in the hill Cumorah with the other records.
Incorrect... This quote is taken directly from the OFFICIAL website of the Church of the Latter Day Saints (
http://www.lds.org ) where Moroni buried a set of gold plates in the Hill Cumorah..
"The family of the Prophet Joseph Smith lived in this area (of New York) at the time of the First Vision (JS-H 1:3). In A.D. 421, Moroni buried a set of gold plates in the Hill Cumorah containing the sacred history of his people (W of M 1:1-11; Morm. 6:6; Moro. 10:1-2). This same Moroni told Joseph Smith where to find the plates—toward the north end of the hill, on the west side, near the top. Moroni delivered them to him in 1827 (D&C 27:5; 128:20; JS-H 1:33-35, 51-54, 59)."
Source:
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/chphotos/2
4)After Moroni finished the book, we obviously do not know what exactly became of him.
5)The next thing we know is that Moroni as a ressurrected being appears to Joseph Smith thousands of years later and directs him to a hill where the summarized history of the nephites including Moronis last known words were buried in a box along with a few other items. In this stone box there were no other records, only one. It was a seperate location from where the majority of the ancient records were buried.
5)Joseph described that hill as being in ontario county NY, just as you have so eagerly pointed out. Moroni did not record the name of the place where he buried the summarized version of the Nephite record, given the name The Book of Mormon. If he traveled to NY, he did so after concluding the Book of Mormon, carried it with him, and buried it there. He gives no hints about the name of the place where the plates were finally buried.
Again, Moroni buried a set of gold plates in the Hill Cumorah... It's been in one place throughout the duration of the story in the BoM.. This was the EXACT same place where just over some 500 years earlier the entire Jaredite nation had been destroyed (please read Ether 15:11-33).
6)After the translation of the Book of Mormon was complete by Joseph Smith, most early church members believed that the hill where Joseph recieved the Book of Mormon was the same hill where all the other records were buried, and where the intense battles were fought. They then gave the name of that hill in NY Cumorah after the one in the record.
Note that the Book of Mormon does not say anywhere that the hill where Moroni buried the final plates had a name at all. It also does not associate the place where Joseph retrieved the plates from with the same place where the battles were fought. It is because the hill in NY had been named Cumorah (by modern people only) that all your confusion exists.
Sargon, the confusion exists in your understanding of the BoM... In it's people, it's history, it's timetime, and all of it's geographic locations given by the elders.. Exactly how long have you been a Mormon?
7) Even during the early days of the church, many brethren believed the events to have happened in Central America. That idea was eventually mostly forgotten, in the face of severe trials that were more urgent.
Again, this sounds like another excuse to me.. In other words, "well we were going to shift our claims to Central America, but then you see, we started to get persecuted for our beliefs so we dropped the issue.."
Many leaders of the church, including presidents, believed and taught that the hill in NY is the same hill where the ancient wars were waged(as you have gone to great lengths to show).
Yes, including the late great Brigham Young himself...
The following is taken from
Brigham Young's Journal of Discourses. Don't forget, by 1841, Joseph Smith appointed Brigham Young President of the Quorum of Twelve Apostles, the governing body of the church, second in authority only to Smith himself...
I (Brigham Young)
lived right in the country where the plates were found from which the Book of Mormon was translated, and
I know a great many things pertaining to that country. I believe I will take the liberty to tell you of another circumstance that will be as marvelous as anything can be. This is an incident in the life of Oliver Cowdery, but he did not take the liberty of telling such things in meeting as I take. I tell these things to you, and I have a motive for doing so. I want to carry them to the ears of my brethren and sisters, and to the children also, that they may grow to an understanding of some things that seem to be entirely hidden from the human family.
Oliver Cowdery went with the Prophet Joseph when he deposited these plates. Joseph did not translate all of the plates; there was a portion of them sealed, which you can learn from the Book of Doctrine and Covenants. When Joseph got the plates, the angel instructed him to carry them
back to the hill Cumorah, which he did. Oliver says that when Joseph and Oliver went there, the hill opened, and they walked into a cave, in which there was a large and spacious room. He says he did not think, at the time, whether they had the light of the sun or artificial light; but that it was just as light as day. They laid the plates on a table; it was a large table that stood in the room. Under this table there was a pile of plates as much as two feet high, and there were altogether in this room more plates than probably many wagon loads; they were piled up in the corners and along the walls. The first time they went there the sword of Laban hung upon the wall; but when they went again it had been taken down and laid upon the table across the gold plates; it was unsheathed, and on it was written these words: “This sword will never be sheathed again until the kingdoms of this world become the kingdom of our God and his Christ.” I tell you this as coming not only from Oliver Cowdery, but others who were familiar with it, and who understood it just as well as we understand coming to this meeting, enjoying the day, and by and by we separate and go away, forgetting most of what is said, but remembering some things.(Journal of Discourses, 18:361 (May 6, 1877)
However, this was never made an issue of salvation (as one of you has claimed) and was never declared to be received by revelation.
Yes, while geographic locations can't save you, they still can be used to backup your claims.. Unfortunately, the BoM claims to be recording the life of the ancient peoples of North America.. Not a single one of it's claims such as the peoples of the Jaredites or Nephites can be found anywhere in the Americas..
"However, archaeological study
has failed to produce a single piece of evidence that can be identified as Nephite or Jaredite, in Mesoamerica or anywhere else in the New World. This is acknowledged by leading Mormon scholars, including David J. Johnson, Bruce W. Warren, and Hugh Nibley, all of Brigham Young University."
Source:
http://www.irr.org/mit/bomarch2.html
Also, here is more damaging evidence..
"Some Mormons claim that the Lamanites were only a small group of people who were geographically restricted to a particular location, such as Central America. However, other Mormon scripture indicates that the Lamanites are peoples on the North American continent. For example, Doctrine and Covenants Section 28 says that the city of Zion will be built “on the borders by the Lamanites.” Several Doctrine and Covenants Sections indicate that Mormon leaders were to “preach to the Lamanites” At one point, the text specifically relates the Lamanites to the “Indian tribes in the West” and that at least part of this boarders on the land of Missouri.
In addition to the standard works, the standard Mormon teaching book, Gospel Principles teaches that the Lamanites are alive and numerous throughout the Americas:
“The Lamanites Will Become a Great People The Lord said that when his coming was near, the Lamanites would become a righteous and respected people. He said, “Before the great day of the Lord shall come,... the Lamanites shall blossom as the rose” (D&C 49:24).
In order to claim that the Native Americans are not Lamanites, one would have to admit that much of Mormon scripture and official current teaching is false.
Source:
http://www.godandscience.org/cults/dna.html
Source:
http://www.godandscience.org/cults/mormarch.html
Or from the Smithsonian:
Source:
http://www.godandscience.org/cults/smithsonian.html
National Geograhic:
Source:
http://www.irr.org/mit/natgeo.html
Nor is there any DNA connection between the American Indians and the Israelis..
Source:
http://www.godandscience.org/cults/dna.html
8- Joseph Fielding Smith, the nephew to Joseph Smith became president and prophet of the church. It was his belief that the hill in NY was the same as the one where the battles were fought, and where all the records were buried. He wrote about it to defend against a growing number of LDS who began to believe that the two hills were in fact different hills.
No.. Again please re-read the records of the earily elders... Way before Joseph Fielding Smith.. It wasn't J.F.'s fault..
9) As the church grew and more scholarly attention began to be focused on the details of Mormon history, many scholars felt confident that the old assumptions had been wrong, and that two hills were a better fit for the BoM history.
No.. Again many Mormon scholars still today do NOT believe in two separate hills.. Here is another statement taken directly from the OFFICIAL website of the Church of the Latter Day Saints (
http://www.lds.org ) about the pageant on the hill Cumorah in N.Y..
"The pageant has been performed in upstate New York since 1937.
Hill Cumorah is one of the Church's most significant landmarks. Latter-day Saints believe it was here, in 1827, that the Church's founder, Joseph Smith Jr., received from an angel a record of ancient American peoples who knew of and believed in Jesus Christ. The record, written on gold plates, was translated into what is known as the Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ."
Source:
http://www.lds.org/newsroom/showrelease ... 34,00.html
Or the pageant web site itself..
Source:
http://www.beliefnet.com/gallery/cumora ... llery.html
10) The issue is still being hotly debated in the mormon community, and probably will remain that way for a long time. The majority of church members and leaders in the past may or may not have been mistaken in their belief that the NY hill was the same Cumorah mentioned in the Book of Mormon. If they were wrong, this is not a reflection on the Book of Mormon, or on the leaders of the church. This is an issue of history, not doctrine. If they were right, then todays scholars are mistaken. Remember that all these theories are just that, theories. The Lord has never declared through any prophet where the ancient events took place. Mostly because it isnt really important for our salvation.
Hotly debated? What you are referring to is a smaller splinter group of Mormon scholars that are trying to justify a different location for the main location of the BoM given by it's elders (in the last 50 years or so).. Mainline Mormonism, all the way to Joseph Smith has already refuted your claims..
Here is another Mormon website claiming that North American is still the setting for Joseph Smith's Book of Mormon...
Source:
http://www.hillcumorahhistory.com/
And another:
Source:
http://www.josephsmith.net/portal/site/ ... 5e340aRCRD
11) It is not accurate to claim that shifting positions on where the events in the Book of Mormon occured is a sure sign of a false church. First of all the church has not made an official declaration about where the events took place, so there is no shifting of the church's position. The opinions of individual members have shifted.
Not accurate?? Sargon.. Again, please re-read what the First Presidency of the LDS Church stated that Cumorah is in New York back in 1990. This is not to be disputed..
"The Church has
long maintained, as attested to by references in the writings of General Authorities, that
the Hill Cumorah in western New York state is the same as referenced in the Book of Mormon." (in Mormon 6:6).
12)For thousands of years the Christian community has debated over the locations of many of the places in the bible, and still there are many disagreements and new discoveries being made. This by no means makes it a false religion. If we discover that we are mistaken about which path Paul took on his journeys after years of believing otherwise this does not make one evil or wicked.
Sargon, despite your feeble attempts to paint the Bible as a "strawman" in archeology, there are many many more artifacts backing up the Bible's claims than the BoM.. For one such example, a few years ago, a group of archeologists found an Assyrian stone tablet in Northern Israel dating from the ninth century B.C. The Aramaic inscription listed Assyria's foes. Included in the list were the words "king of Israel" and "house of David." Please review the links.. I won't even go into the Egyptian records..
Souce:
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetic ... ology.html
I hope that this timeline helps to sort out the details. Please try to read carefully all the words I have written before jumping to conclusions. If you are actively looking for flaws in my typing, surely you will find them.
Sargon
Sargon, if you want a real timeline, please see this one:
http://www.ocii.com/~cmeek/BoM_Geog21.htm
