What difference

johnnyboy08 · Post by **johnnyboy08** » Tue May 08, 2007 7:12 pm

FFC wrote:
johnnyboy08 wrote:BTW

Enigma, I've looked for good study guides, but none of them can justify some of the actions of the Bible. If you know any that can make it okay to kill children, steal women, rape, steal, and enforce overly violent laws over some ridiculous reasons, please, tell me. I've been reading the NASB, and it isn't too hard to understand. It tells me that God has great power, and uses it to hurt people. That's what the Bible is telling me.
Well I'm glad your keeping an open mind, Johnny. You go from admitting to knowing nothing to having it all figured out after reading a few books at random. Where in the world do you see God condoning the actions you describe above? It's true that God is no one to play around with after much warning...as His enemies find out many times in the bible, but never does He punish without plenty of fair warning. If you still don't think He is fair then you are entitled to your opinion, but in His economy He is in control of the ballgame and can do whatever He wants to do, to whoever He wants to do it, whether it is something we approve of or not. He is just kooky that way with that soveriegnty of His.

If you want me to list out the verses I've read, just ask

Fair warning? What does fair even mean in these cases? Isn't your God suppose to be the exception to all the other Gods out there? Shouldn't He be different? His actions certainly seems primitive.

Basically, worship me or I'll destroy you, is what God is doing here. There is nothing special about His actions. Any of the other various Gods in the neighborhood would do the same, that is, destroy the enemies of their worshipers. Isn't YOUR God suppose to be setting an example for the rest of the world?

EDIT: What if a Muslim came up to you and said that you better convert to Islam or else Allah will destroy you? You certainly sound convinced about your religion, and wouldn't doubt your faith for anything. But can't you see it? You are no different than the enemies of the Jews in the Old Testament. It doesn't matter how many times you've been warned, if any non-Christians threatened your faith, you certainly wouldn't doubt your God. Neither did the Gentiles in the Old Testament. And for their faith, they received divine punishment. Ironic, isn't it?

Gman · Post by **Gman** » Tue May 08, 2007 7:53 pm

johnnyboy08 wrote:Enemies? Really now, who are the ENEMIES? Are we not all of God's children?

Well, if you really want to break this down aren't we all enemies of God in our carnal ways?

johnnyboy08 wrote:If we are not with God, He must kill us then?

I'm not sure where you are getting this killing stuff... But when we sin, our sin actually kills God and other people. And our sins killed Jesus.. So who are the real killers?

johnnyboy08 wrote:First things first, why did God choose just Abraham?

Because Abraham choose to believe God..

johnnyboy08 wrote:Secondly, if the Land was "promised", why couldn't God just hand it over?

I guess in the same reasoning, if I went to college, why can't they just hand me my degree? That would be easier wouldn't it?

johnnyboy08 wrote:Why let other people inhabit it first? If you look at this at another angle, you will notice something; history is written by the victors. ANY race could've just invaded a decent strip of land by the Sea, and then after their securing of their nation, simply written down on scrolls or papers that their conquest was divine of Heaven-sent.

Israel may have been divinely conquered at that time, but it was also dismantled by God too after the Israelis disobeyed..

johnnyboy08 wrote:Isn't this whole "Promised Land" business that sparked up the conflicts between Jews and the other cultures in the Middle East?

I think it's been blown out of proportion...

johnnyboy08 wrote:This is what I really wanted to say; are you implying that if God is on our side, our enemies better watch out?

No... Because the Bible tells us to love our enemies.. Luke 6:35

johnnyboy08 wrote:I mean, just because God is on the Jews' side doesn't give them the right to do everything they did in Judges, does it?

God still has to fulfill his promises with them, but that does not give them the right to lord it over people..

johnnyboy08 wrote:Having a so-called "All-Loving" God shouldn't allow His worshipers to do whatever they want against people outside of their religion. That's called intolerance,

Let's put it this way from scripture.. God, will punish the unjust be it Christian, Jew, or any other religion.

FFC · Post by **FFC** » Tue May 08, 2007 8:00 pm

Fair warning? What does fair even mean in these cases? Isn't your God suppose to be the exception to all the other Gods out there? Shouldn't He be different? His actions certainly seems primitive.

He is the exception and He has proved it over and over again to all who put there faith in Him. He is different. He is the only one who claims to be the only true God among thousands. His actions only seem primitive to a self enlightened mind. When God turns the light on it's as clear as day.

Basically, worship me or I'll destroy you, is what God is doing here. There is nothing special about His actions. Any of the other various Gods in the neighborhood would do the same, that is, destroy the enemies of their worshipers. Isn't YOUR God suppose to be setting an example for the rest of the world?

No, He says you have a choice. The way of life or the way of death. Each choice has a consequence. In the end there is no one to blame but ourselves. Besides before God sent His people in to conquer His enemies He first sent people in to give fair warning.

EDIT: What if a Muslim came up to you and said that you better convert to Islam or else Allah will destroy you? You certainly sound convinced about your religion, and wouldn't doubt your faith for anything. But can't you see it? You are no different than the enemies of the Jews in the Old Testament. It doesn't matter how many times you've been warned, if any non-Christians threatened your faith, you certainly wouldn't doubt your God. Neither did the Gentiles in the Old Testament. And for their faith, they received divine punishment. Ironic, isn't it?

But if I saw the miracles and mighty power of the other God, and saw Him do things that my God could never do, ie, all of Israels enemies, it would be stupid for me not to think things over...so far all the other religions have nothing on my God.

Keep seeking.

Gman · Post by **Gman** » Tue May 08, 2007 8:27 pm

Sorry to break in FFC... I was typing away before I saw your post...

johnnyboy08 wrote:Fair warning? What does fair even mean in these cases? Isn't your God suppose to be the exception to all the other Gods out there? Shouldn't He be different? His actions certainly seems primitive.

By that same token, should we allow our police force to govern us? Why can't I just do what I want?

johnnyboy08 wrote:Basically, worship me or I'll destroy you, is what God is doing here.

Again... It looks like you have already made your mind up about God..

johnnyboy08 wrote:There is nothing special about His actions. Any of the other various Gods in the neighborhood would do the same, that is, destroy the enemies of their worshipers.

Was it right to go after Adolf Hitler? And who started that war?

johnnyboy08 wrote:Isn't YOUR God suppose to be setting an example for the rest of the world?

Yes.. But are his people setting an example for the rest of the world? Probably not...

johnnyboy08 · Post by **johnnyboy08** » Tue May 08, 2007 9:18 pm

Hmm... I like this

You guys have been extremely helpful. Thank you all for posts. I will reconsider Christianity. I will continue reading the Bible and seeking the answers to other questions. In the future, I hope I can post my questions here. Thanks again for your time and patience. I guess now you all can pray for me?

Silvertusk · Post by **Silvertusk** » Wed May 09, 2007 4:21 am

Johnny - you have been asking some very thoughtful and relevant questions and i do pray that you will find the answers you seek.

On your journey i think you need to always remember who God is. God is perfect love and perfect Justice - that is his nature and this is unchanging. He is also a God that did not demand that we worship him, but instead thought it better to earn our worship by completely emptying himself and becoming human and die for us on a cross. Real power is to serve and Jesus demonstrated this in spades. No greater love has a man than to lay down his life for his friends. This is certainly a God worth worshiping.

As for Hell. I believe that the images of it is purely metaphorical with fire standing for judgement. The reason I know this is you cannot have fire and darkness together. God is the Light and seperation from him means eternal darkness. Hell is just God giving people what they want - he will not force anything on anybody. Whether this means they will be annihilated is yet to be known.

Looking back also at the old testament you see a great deal of genocide - but you have to understand that these people were into child sacrifice and incredible evil. Only God Knows what would have happened if these people we allowed to live. We see it from such a human level and unable to see the much bigger picture. Also the fact that the children was killed, to us seems devastatingly evil. But remember that these children would have also grown up with the evil ways of the people and so would be seperated from God anyway. Even though again we cant see this, killing them before the age of accountablilty allows them to be with God for Eternity.

This is something I really struggle with myself, but if God is God - everything he does works out for the better good, and we has humans have a tiny perspective on what that is.

Read the bible through the eyes of the New Testament and get a good study guide and commentary and your journey shall be fruitful.

Hope some of that helps

And may God shine the path ahead of you.

Silvertusk.

Enigma7457 · Post by **Enigma7457** » Wed May 09, 2007 6:27 am

Johnny,

I think i may be disagreed with here, but i'm going to say it anyway. Unfortunately, i have to give you my personal examples again:

I, as you, have cmoplaints about the violence in the bible. Doesn't always seem to make sense. But, I KNOW that GOd is real, just like i know the sun is real and the moon and that the sky's blue, etc. Not because of my faith (unfortunately) but because of my mind. I agree to read the bible, always read the bible. HOwever, i didn't become a christian by reading the bible. I first dissected it. It is nothing like any other book, historically speaking.

Once i found that what it recorded was true (like the life of Christ, for example) i was able to accept what i questioned. There is a verse somewhere that says, you will find me if you seek me when you seek me with all your heart. (Paraphrase) Who will find God? Those who seek with all their heart. And, it seems to me that you are.

And yes, we will pray for you

Enigma7457 · Post by **Enigma7457** » Wed May 09, 2007 6:31 am

This is something I really struggle with myself, but if God is God - everything he does works out for the better good, and we has humans have a tiny perspective on what that is.

I couldn't agree more. Well said. We cannot compare our view of things to God's view of things. They are on completely different paths.

FFC · Post by **FFC** » Wed May 09, 2007 8:13 am

Gman wrote:Sorry to break in FFC... I was typing away before I saw your post...

No problem...confirmation is good!

Gman · Post by **Gman** » Wed May 09, 2007 12:38 pm

Ok thanks, I just didn't want to step on your toes there..

Silvertusk wrote:Looking back also at the old testament you see a great deal of genocide - but you have to understand that these people were into child sacrifice and incredible evil. Only God Knows what would have happened if these people we allowed to live. We see it from such a human level and unable to see the much bigger picture. Also the fact that the children was killed, to us seems devastatingly evil. But remember that these children would have also grown up with the evil ways of the people and so would be seperated from God anyway. Even though again we cant see this, killing them before the age of accountablilty allows them to be with God for Eternity.

Good point Silvertusk... I just thought I would throw another little gem in the mix here.. This one is about King David. And even though David was very dear to God's heart, God didn't want David to build His temple for him. Why? Because he was warrior...

1 Chronicles 28:3 But God said to me, 'You are not to build a house for my Name, because you are a warrior and have shed blood.'

This just goes to show you what God thinks about war... God HATES war even though in some cases it may be justified..

FFC · Post by **FFC** » Wed May 09, 2007 1:01 pm

Gman wrote:1 Chronicles 28:3 But God said to me, 'You are not to build a house for my Name, because you are a warrior and have shed blood.'

This just goes to show you what God thinks about war... God HATES war even though in some cases it may be justified..

I have always wondered about that too. It could on the surface seem contradictory, but we have to remember that God is always true to His own nature, and has to do some things that are necessary even though it breaks His own heart...such as sending His only Son to die an excruciating death on the cross to save people like us who by nature are His enemies.

zoegirl · Post by **zoegirl** » Wed May 09, 2007 3:28 pm

johnnyboy08 wrote:
FFC wrote:
johnnyboy08 wrote:BTW

Enigma, I've looked for good study guides, but none of them can justify some of the actions of the Bible. If you know any that can make it okay to kill children, steal women, rape, steal, and enforce overly violent laws over some ridiculous reasons, please, tell me. I've been reading the NASB, and it isn't too hard to understand. It tells me that God has great power, and uses it to hurt people. That's what the Bible is telling me.
Well I'm glad your keeping an open mind, Johnny. You go from admitting to knowing nothing to having it all figured out after reading a few books at random. Where in the world do you see God condoning the actions you describe above? It's true that God is no one to play around with after much warning...as His enemies find out many times in the bible, but never does He punish without plenty of fair warning. If you still don't think He is fair then you are entitled to your opinion, but in His economy He is in control of the ballgame and can do whatever He wants to do, to whoever He wants to do it, whether it is something we approve of or not. He is just kooky that way with that soveriegnty of His.
If you want me to list out the verses I've read, just ask

Fair warning? What does fair even mean in these cases? Isn't your God suppose to be the exception to all the other Gods out there? Shouldn't He be different? His actions certainly seems primitive.

Basically, worship me or I'll destroy you, is what God is doing here. There is nothing special about His actions. Any of the other various Gods in the neighborhood would do the same, that is, destroy the enemies of their worshipers. Isn't YOUR God suppose to be setting an example for the rest of the world?

EDIT: What if a Muslim came up to you and said that you better convert to Islam or else Allah will destroy you? You certainly sound convinced about your religion, and wouldn't doubt your faith for anything. But can't you see it? You are no different than the enemies of the Jews in the Old Testament. It doesn't matter how many times you've been warned, if any non-Christians threatened your faith, you certainly wouldn't doubt your God. Neither did the Gentiles in the Old Testament. And for their faith, they received divine punishment. Ironic, isn't it?

God isn't some puny being that demands to be worshiped...HIS NATURE, BEING GOD, righteousness, light, purity, love...obligates worship. We have chosen to reject His athority and place. That places us as enemies of God.

he is right that you cannot understand much of the underlying thread of God's redemption by jumping from book to book or by one reading.

We sinned, God established a covenant a covenant between Abraham and His descendants and chose them to be His exalted people. Nothing special, just that God chose them. He kept His promise to them even after they strayed, rejected Him, worshipped other Gods, were idolators....etc.

God sent the law (showing the demands for righteousness and the need for sacrificial atonement) to His people, God sent prophets to His people to call them back from their idolatry, God even, yes, showed His power and might. Throughout the biblical history this constant theme appears, we are flighty, sinful, people and continually reject HIm. And yet throughout this, God maintains His part of the covenant, providing Himself as the sacrificial lamb to atone for our sins. Jesus came to take OUR punishment established by our rejection of God.

Yes, that rejection deserves separation but it is our chosen path. If we demand that God isn't God, there is no God, then we shall be given our choice...and that is to be separted from Him.

johnnyboy08 · Post by **johnnyboy08** » Wed May 09, 2007 5:28 pm

Thank you all for your posts. I will respond to them accordingly later. For now, I just have two questions that I hope to have answered.

1) Why did God wait so long before He started to redeem the rest of mankind instead with only the Jews?

2) If God is unchanging, how come the miracles and Divine vengeance of God isn't seen today (Herod bursting with insects, fire from the sky, healing of the blind, etc.)?

Thank you all, and I have to go do a final project, and will be back in about a week, sorry fellas

FFC · Post by **FFC** » Wed May 09, 2007 7:11 pm

1) Why did God wait so long before He started to redeem the rest of mankind instead with only the Jews?

Who said He waited so long to redeem the rest of mankind? Israel was His chosen race of people to be representatives of Him. Any one from any other nation who believed Him to be the one and only true God would recieve salvation. It's always been about faith and belief.

2) If God is unchanging, how come the miracles and Divine vengeance of God isn't seen today (Herod bursting with insects, fire from the sky, healing of the blind, etc.)?

I would say because Jesus took all of God's devine vengeance on the cross for all of mankind. As for the miracles, I believe they were necessary then, but once God's inspired word was put together there was no need for flashy object lessons. Just because God doesn't do things in the same way doesn't mean He has changed.

Enigma7457 · Post by **Enigma7457** » Thu May 10, 2007 5:38 am

2) If God is unchanging, how come the miracles and Divine vengeance of God isn't seen today (Herod bursting with insects, fire from the sky, healing of the blind, etc.)?

The purpose of miracles has always been to confirm being sent by God. Prophets would perform the miracles as a show of divine will. Today, after the coming of Christ, prophets seem to be less necessary. Like FFC said, "but once God's inspired word was put together there was no need for flashy object lessons. Just because God doesn't do things in the same way doesn't mean He has changed."