controversial scriptures

[catherine]

Hi Frank, it's all interesting stuff! I was just reading the recent posts in 'End Times' and everyone has their own take on things there too. It's a wonder anyone agrees on anything. Actions speak louder than words and if we have love, it won't matter if we were wrong about the tree of life or the rapture or whatever. Love covers a multitude of sins, and I dare say incorrect doctrines. It is interesting to debate these things but after a while you could end up feeling deflated and confused with the sheer scope of diversity in everyone's opinions and beliefs. I can't resist putting my two pennorth in as well but I think l will
quit while I'm ahead.

[frankbaginski]

catherine ,

While we are discussing scripture in its many interpretations we are studying the Word of God. How can any of that be wrong. I always say that we will find out when we get there. Now there are some who try and destroy the Word of God but they are easily found out from their fruit. So in order for this to work we are not to be quick to judge. The truth always rises to the top over time. Bad fruit falls and rots.

[B. W.]

The bible tells us plainly that sin caused death to enter the world. The world before the fall was extremely different from the one we now know. Sin entered the world and changed everything.

Why the cherubim guarding the tree of life and God driving man out of the Garden? To keep humanity from living forever in his/her sinful mortal state — defeating God's own word spoken in 2:17. God drove man out of the Garden into a world of our own making...
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[catherine]

Hi B.W, I agree with you. That is how I understand those scriptures. I know though, that I may be wrong, but what I am sure of is that we have been offered a way to conquer sin and death through Jesus.

[B. W.]

Hi B.W, I agree with you. That is how I understand those scriptures. I know though, that I may be wrong, but what I am sure of is that we have been offered a way to conquer sin and death through Jesus.

Matthew 10:32-33, "So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven, 33 but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven." ESV

John 3:16-21, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. 21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God." ESV

The way of salvation is through Christ.
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[catherine]

I've just been reading the previous posts and was very interested in the different understandings about 'death' and eternal 'non existence' as opposed to eternal torment. I like this scripture: Jer7:31 'They (apostate Judeans) have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, in order to burn their sons and daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and had not come up into my heart.' IF it never came into God's heart, surely he does not have and use such a thing on a larger scale. My studies of the sciptures show me clearly that just as we did not exist before we were conceived, when we die we cease to exist again. Death is the opposite of life, that is why it was such a terrible punishment and because God is love (1JOhn 4:8) he will not torture those of His Creation who did not love Him. Jesus said love your enemies. God will show His Love to His enemies by taking away their life for ever, or rather he will put them out of their misery because as Jen said earlier, when they are resurrected and judged and see family members going off to be with Jesus and Paradise and they have blown it, they will truly gnash their teeth. The Biblical references to eternal torment and the lake of fire etc etc, are to show that this 2nd death is eternal, for ever and ever.

[BavarianWheels]

I've just been reading the previous posts and was very interested in the different understandings about 'death' and eternal 'non existence' as opposed to eternal torment. I like this scripture: Jer7:31 'They (apostate Judeans) have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, in order to burn their sons and daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and had not come up into my heart.' IF it never came into God's heart, surely he does not have and use such a thing on a larger scale. My studies of the sciptures show me clearly that just as we did not exist before we were conceived, when we die we cease to exist again. Death is the opposite of life, that is why it was such a terrible punishment and because God is love (1JOhn 4:8) he will not torture those of His Creation who did not love Him. Jesus said love your enemies. God will show His Love to His enemies by taking away their life for ever, or rather he will put them out of their misery because as Jen said earlier, when they are resurrected and judged and see family members going off to be with Jesus and Paradise and they have blown it, they will truly gnash their teeth. The Biblical references to eternal torment and the lake of fire etc etc, are to show that this 2nd death is eternal, for ever and ever.

Agreed.
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[catherine]

Vielen Dank!

[Katabole]

Catherine wrote

My studies of the sciptures show me clearly that just as we did not exist before we were conceived,

I respectfully disagree but I will use scripture to back up where I'm coming from. This is a good thread by the way

Job 38:4, Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. (KJV)

5Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

If you notice verse 7, part of the question God asks Job is where were you when the morning stars sang together and all the angels of God shouted for joy? When I first read this I took it literally to believe it was indeed stars. But then I read this scripture:

Rev 12:3, And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth:

The last time I checked the atlas of the universe, it claimed there were 3X10(22) or 30 billion trillion stars in the universe. If a third of them were cast to the earth, well there simply wouldn't be an earth because it would have been obliterated

http://www.atlasoftheuniverse.com/universe.html

Therefore, I don't believe it was speaking about stars at all, but about souls or the children of God. God claims He created all things, therefore He must have created souls which I believe were with Him at the beginning of his creation and came from Him when he created man, later on the time scale.

John 1:3, All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Psalm 147:4, He telleth the number of the stars; he calleth them all by their names.

Interesting that all the stars have names.

Isa 14:13, For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

This is what Lucifer speaks in Isaiah.

Dan 8;10, And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

This is describing what the little horn did, similar to Rev 12:4, where the dragon cast a third of the stars to the earth.

Now, skipping over to Jeremiah, listen to what God tells Jeremiah:

Jer 1:4,Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

5Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

If we did not exist before we were conceived, why does God tell Jeremiah that before He formed him in his mother's belly he knew him?

The book of Ephesians begins with an introduction by Paul, written to the saints. Saints can be described as holy ones, set aside ones or elect.

Eph 1:4, According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world,

Eph 1:5, Having predestinated us...

Eph 1:11, In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Eph 2:2,Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Rom 8:29, For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

If we did not exist before we were conceived, then how did he foreknow? Foreknow meaning, God knew them from before. Before what?

Job 38:4, Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?

Psalm 102:25, Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth:

Mt 13:35,I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

The reason I use the name Katabole, is because it the Greek word for foundation, Strong's (2602)

katabolh
katabole
kat-ab-ol-ay'
from kataballw - kataballo 2598; a deposition, i.e. founding; figuratively, conception:--conceive, foundation.

Who created evil? God clearly says He did.

Isa 45:7, I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (KJV)

But initially, evil only ever developed within one entity:

Eze 28:15,Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

That word iniquity is Strong's 5766 and it speaks for itself.

`evel
eh'-vel
or lavel {aw'-vel}; and (feminine) lavlah {av-law'}; or owlah {o-law'}; or .olah {o-law'}; from '`aval' (5765); (moral) evil:--iniquity, perverseness, unjust(-ly), unrighteousness(-ly); wicked(-ness).

With the examples of scripture I've included here, I wanted to show that we actually did exist in the beginning with God. Yes, God created evil but it only ever developed in one entity, Lucifer. He's figuratively called the King of Tyre in Ezekiel 28. Christ is our Rock. But Tyre also means rock. Sort of like the difference between gold and fool's gold. And the prophecy in that chapter is a lamentation to the King of Tyre, the (false) rock, Satan, Lucifer, the Dragon, the little horn. Piecing these scriptures together into what I believe to be a true story that scripture evokes, Lucifer started a rebellion in that first age before the foundation of this earth age. When it decribes the stars being cast to the earth by the dragon's tail, it is speaking of the souls he deceived when he wanted the mercy seat in Eze 28 and Isa 14 and wanted to be God. (Hey, he wanted Jesus to worship Him in the temptation in the desert). There were also souls that were not deceived. These souls God predestined or predestinated, compared to those of free will according to Romans 8: 29, 30. I suppose, if I could describe the difference, it is not that any of God's children are better than others, but those he predestined, fought against Lucifer in that first age and God gave them the gift of a destiny because they did that. This is why he can deliberately guide someone's life and fulfill prophecy even today, just like he interfered in Jeremiah's life and ordained him as a prophet before he was born. Same goes for Cyrus the Persian, In Isa 45. A person of free will, on the other hand, God will not interfere in their life whatsoever, unless they specifically ask Him and only then if it is His will. Not so a predestined one, because he will deliberately guide those to fulfill prophecy.

See, instead of destroying Satan and the souls that rebelled in the beginning, God instead, destroyed that age, as described in Jer 4:23-26 and 2Pet 3:6., and sentenced Satan to death Eze 28. He just hasn't executed Satan yet. That's yet future. Then he created this age, created humans with the ability to reproduce themselves and placed the souls that were with Him in the beginning, (those that rebelled against Him and the one's that fought against Satan) into these human bodies, so that these humans with souls (spirit body) would decide during their lives, whether they would follow God or follow Satan. The only one's God will deliberately guide are the predestined ones.

This is why He can say:

Rev 13:8,And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

God had it already planned that he would be born as a human to be crucified. Just as He let all of us be born, He was going to show us how to get it done by being born also. This is why He is called, "the lamb slain before the foundation of the world." To show his children, especially those who rebelled against Him, that He loves them.

I could write much more because it sure is an interesting topic. Just as an aside,the only non-fiction book I've come across that even comes close to describing the different ages or eon's of time, is the Silmarillion by JRR Tolkien. And I'm sure Tolkien devised the god Eru in that book from the God of the Bible and the dark lord Melkor/Morgoth in that book, from the descriptions of Lucifer in the Bible. Check it out and you should get the jest of what I'm speaking of.

Peace

Ron

[B. W.]

Catherine wrote

With the examples of scripture I've included here, I wanted to show that we actually did exist in the beginning with God. Yes, God created evil but it only ever developed in one entity, Lucifer. He's figuratively called the King of Tyre in Ezekiel 28...

Not quite: You ideas do not line up with the bible…

Ezekiel 28:12-15, "Son of man, raise a lamentation over the king of Tyre, and say to him, Thus says the Lord GOD: "You were the signet of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty... 14 You were an anointed guardian cherub. I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; in the midst of the stones of fire you walked. 15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created, till unrighteousness [iniquity, injustice] was found in you." ESV

Job 34:10-12, "Therefore, hear me, you men of understanding: far be it from God that he should do wickedness, and from the Almighty that he should do wrong. 11 For according to the work of a man he will repay him, and according to his ways he will make it befall him. 12 Of a truth, God will not do wickedly, and the Almighty will not pervert justice.”

Note — Lucifer was created blameless in his ways from the day he was created, till unrighteousness[iniquity, injustice] was found in him. To be found means it was not placed inside — it was discovered. God did not make Satan fall or evil — it was Found, Detected, Encountered, Discovered, in the Devil. Certainly God knew all this beforehand and had a plan to reveal his Glory and prove he is absolutely sovereignly all powerful for to be truly this all powerful is to be able to work through all things, circumstances, scenarios, etc, and still more than able to achieve the true goal of creation [Revelations 21 and 22].

This lines up with Job 34:10-12 as well as in line with God's natures and character as the bible explores and expounds in many diverse manners and ways.
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[B. W.]

I've just been reading the previous posts and was very interested in the different understandings about 'death' and eternal 'non existence' as opposed to eternal torment. I like this scripture: Jer7:31 'They (apostate Judeans) have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, in order to burn their sons and daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and had not come up into my heart.' IF it never came into God's heart, surely he does not have and use such a thing on a larger scale. My studies of the sciptures show me clearly that just as we did not exist before we were conceived, when we die we cease to exist again. Death is the opposite of life, that is why it was such a terrible punishment and because God is love (1JOhn 4:8) he will not torture those of His Creation who did not love Him. Jesus said love your enemies. God will show His Love to His enemies by taking away their life for ever, or rather he will put them out of their misery because as Jen said earlier, when they are resurrected and judged and see family members going off to be with Jesus and Paradise and they have blown it, they will truly gnash their teeth. The Biblical references to eternal torment and the lake of fire etc etc, are to show that this 2nd death is eternal, for ever and ever.

This is getting old — you are misreading bible to support your opinion at the expense of denying all other scriptures which are contrary to your point of view. People do this all the time. When the bible contradicts your beliefs will you be humble enough to believe the bible and not what your man made doctrines teach?

Here we go again. Jeremiah 17 as a proof text that the Jerusalem garbage pit no longer burns, Sodom and Gomorrah no longer exist, people in Noah's day no longer exist therefore God delightfully annihilates into non-existence thus gives rest to the wicked before this event in oblivious soul sleep and after this - then the bliss of non-existence!

Please do not confuse God justly wiping out Sodom and Gomorrah, and the ancient world of Noah's time as a proof text that God annihilates into non-existence or proves soul sleep. These events happened on finite terms — mortality was extinguished so God's good plans prevail.

Those that perished where not eternally annihilated for reasons cited in my prior postings regarding God placing eternity in our hearts. These people were removed from the land of the living so they no-longer can cause harm. This is God's sovereign right to do, to mortally kill and make alive. Notice the context of 2 Peter chapter two and what verse nine states regarding the same subject matter.

2 Peter 2:9, “Then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the Day of Judgment…”

When the judgment of God falls upon those mortally alive for their great sins, these are removed from the land of mortal living and are turned into a place where they are kept under punishment until the Day of Judgment. You cannot be any more concert than that. Those that perished - their souls/corrupted spirits were turned into Sheol where the fiery wrath of God burns as Psalms 9:17 states. The bible clearly teaches this. Those people from that time are still being kept under punishment and will be so till the second death when hell and its inhabitants are tossed into the lake of fire just as the bible teaches.

Note what Jude 7 really states: “…Serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.” The fire and brimstone of Sodom and Gomorrah serve only as examples that God's just wrath will fall. An example is - just that — an example. The eternal fire of punishment burns forever in all its full and symbolic implications as God so wills.

These are examples that God repays in judgment. The fire remains eternal, not temporal, and has nothing to do with fire and brimstone raining down destroying these cities way back when or that these cities not existing today to prove your beliefs. Yes, the cities were laid waste to ruin because God judged these people and as it is written in Psalms, they were turned into hell — eternal fire in the afterlife. To say otherwise creates the logical fallacy of contradiction with continuity of the subject contained in the entire bible.

Psalms 9:15-17, “Jehovah is known. He has executed judgment; the wicked is snared in the work of his own hands. Higgaion. Selah. 17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, all the nations that forget God. ” MKJV

Also note that God's wrath is given as an example of fire: Deuteronomy 32:22, "For a fire is kindled by my anger, and it burns to the depths of Sheol..." ESV

Again note that before the resurrection of Christ as well as before the Final Judgment, that Jesus himself gives this description of hell occupants as a conscious afterlife in the Old Testament era:

Luke 16:23-24, "...and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24 And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.'" ESV

The eternal fire is in Hell, not remaining on Sodom and Gomorrah's physical earthly locations. The populace was not eternally annihilated but judged as rejecters of God and turned into Hell, right after death, where the eternal fire of God's judgment, wrath, and just recompense burns eternally.

These finite cities and people were mortally annihilated which means removed and cut off from the land of the mortal living to be judge as rejecters of God and turned into hell, forever alive as Psalms 9:15-17 declares as do other scriptures already amply reviewed. God has the right to judge the wicked to cut them off and remove them from the land of the mortal living and turn them over into his everlasting retribution proving his justice and mercy absolute and way beyond the scope of mortal finite reasoning.

In fact, Jude speaks of false brethren Jude 4 who crept into the Church bringing false doctrine and denying Jesus Christ and denying his actual effective work. This passage is warning that these need to repent or face the consequence of joining other inhabitants in the current hell.

Confusion comes from finite people who can empirically annihilate mortal physical life and make mortal life cease. From this comes the notion of annihilationism. However people cannot kill, annihilate the soul/spirit of man just as Jesus said in:

Luke 12:4-5: "I tell you, my friends, do not fear those who kill the body, and after that have nothing more that they can do. 5 But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him!”

The word destroy does not mean annihilate, or to kill that causes a total cessation of existence. It means a state of ruin, perishing, lostness, and when Jesus means eternal destruction he means everlasting ruin — punishment just as the force of Revelation 20:10-15 states: “…and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever….15, And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”

Yes, thrown into the same lake of eternal fire to suffer the same fate - tormented day and night forever and ever without end — not extinction. The force of the words defies such extinction into non-existence. The very words eternal destruction means this is a state of everlasting ruin, lostness, perishing, banished from God forever: proving God's justice and mercy absolute and way beyond the scope of human mortal finite reasoning.

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9, “…in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.” 9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might…” ESV

The message from Jude 4-25, 2 Peter2:1-22 is not a proof text for the 'annihilationist and or soul sleeper' point of view but rather a warning to false brethren and those spread false doctrine that as certain as God's fiery judgment fell on the ancient world, judgment will come to those denying Christ without warning, and they will join other rejecters and defilers in hell's eternal flames — that is the example used within those pages.

Eternal non-existence is nothing to fear — as you cease being as well as suffer nothing for any wrong doing after dying — just soul sleep.

Jesus says in Matthew 10:28, “And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.” ESV

This is not non-existence but rather what Jesus tells of in Matthew 25:46: “And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Shall I again copy and paste again — here — that eternal punishment means that same kind of eternal state mentioned in same Greek word usage, in same sentence, meaning the same as eternal regarding 'the righteous into eternal life.' If eternal punishment does mean eternal then eternal life used in same sentence and Greek grammar usage cannot mean eternal either.


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All scripture quotes not cited are from the ESV version of the bible
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[catherine]

HI Katabole, well you say you learn something new every day. I've never heard of those 'pre-existence' beliefs before. They sound interesting and maybe plausible from the scriptures you have quoted but at this point in my studies I would agree with B.W. I will re read your reply and go through it more slowly to make sure for myself - I think that is important. I have no problem with you for believing this and hope we have many further discussions..

[catherine]

HI B.W, thank you for your reply, although I must say your attitude somewhat offends me. I think I know how Jen was feeling. I will try not to be disrespectful to you, although it may prove hard. I will need to re read your post and go through all your points. I am more than willing to accept I may be in error. That's the thing with human reasoning, it can be dodgy just like any other part of us, but having said that, that I can only use the brains I've got. There are many sciptures that would appear to support 'both' of these opposing views and as the Bible does not or is meant not to be contradictory, it may take some time in sifting through them and being sure about them. By the way, when you say:

'This is getting old — you are misreading bible to support your opinion at the expense of denying all other scriptures which are contrary to your point of view. People do this all the time. When the bible contradicts your beliefs will you be humble enough to believe the bible and not what your man made doctrines teach?'

that really peeves me greatly. I could say the same of you but I won't. It's that sort of unkind attitude that makes worse the divisions that occur between Christians. That may sound flippant, as I know there are doctrines that are so important that they are not under negotiation, e.g believing Christ hadn't risen (that was an early one that crept into the 1st Century Church) and the one about sinning greatly so as to receive more grace and forgiveness - wow that is so dodgy. So I understand that there has to be a balance in these matters of disagreeing, but please don't write me off just yet as an apostate. Enough of my 'telling you off'. I'm sure you lose patience if you are constantly going over the same old ground, but bear with me while I look up your reply. I will come back to you in a day or two and will support my position with scriptures.

[B. W.]

HI B.W, thank you for your reply, although I must say your attitude somewhat offends me. I think I know how Jen was feeling. I will try not to be disrespectful to you, although it may prove hard. I will need to re read your post and go through all your points. I am more than willing to accept I may be in error. That's the thing with human reasoning, it can be dodgy just like any other part of us, but having said that, that I can only use the brains I've got. There are many sciptures that would appear to support 'both' of these opposing views and as the Bible does not or is meant not to be contradictory, it may take some time in sifting through them and being sure about them. By the way, when you say:

'This is getting old — you are misreading bible to support your opinion at the expense of denying all other scriptures which are contrary to your point of view. People do this all the time. When the bible contradicts your beliefs will you be humble enough to believe the bible and not what your man made doctrines teach?'

that really peeves me greatly. I could say the same of you but I won't. It's that sort of unkind attitude that makes worse the divisions that occur between Christians. That may sound flippant, as I know there are doctrines that are so important that they are not under negotiation, e.g believing Christ hadn't risen (that was an early one that crept into the 1st Century Church) and the one about sinning greatly so as to receive more grace and forgiveness - wow that is so dodgy. So I understand that there has to be a balance in these matters of disagreeing, but please don't write me off just yet as an apostate. Enough of my 'telling you off'. I'm sure you lose patience if you are constantly going over the same old ground, but bear with me while I look up your reply. I will come back to you in a day or two and will support my position with scriptures.

I apologize personally to you but please understand that it gets rather old debating that the Fires of Gehenna are confined to a trash dump no longer used as such, that since Sodom and Gomorrah no longer exist, as well as Noah's world destroyed in the flood used as proof text to prove an Annihilationist point of view - In full disregard of what many bible verses amply point out is like beating a dead horse. Please grasp the implications what the doctrines of Annihilationism, Soul Sleep, and Universalism has brought into the church: a denial of God's character and nature.

Does eternal punishment mean everlasting or not, does eternal destruction mean everlasting or not. These words were spoken by Jesus Christ and he seemed to think these were extremely important. Christ also offended many. Should we not believe Christ and preach the full gospel because his words offends people?

Before you come back explaining your position please answer one question before you do:

Are you pro-abortion or pro-life?
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[catherine]

Hi B.W, I am happy to answer your question - I have always been anti-abortion. I couldn't put it any better than David Psalm 139:13-16. I am drafting a reply for you and I'll try to keep it brief.