"The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands." (Psalm 19:1)
https://discussions.godandscience.org/
Which is why I want to see the details. I'm getting a story from you who got a story from a preacher who got a story from someone else . . .jlay wrote:In fact as I first stated when I brought it up, I don't recall if it was his personal experience, or if he was relaying a testimony of another.
I appreciate your opinion/hypothesis. I've found the most spiritual people to be those that seek to be in God's perfect will for their life. As they do, I've noticed a trend where they often leave the pew/background and begin to effect God's will for their lives. An example would be Sonny who started Victory Outreach whom I've met. Another would be that lady who went to the walled city in China and with only God's help converted it's gangs. On and on and on really I have many examples. I haven't really seen someone grow very close to God and then become quiet and nondiscernable. Interesting you have. I've met a lot of codependent people pleasers that fill the role you describe though. Apparently we have very different experiences.jlay wrote:The most spirtual people I have known, are people you wouldn't barely notice in church. One is a reformed hard core drug addict who runs an orphanage in Bolivia, caring for and discipling hundreds of abandoned boys and girls. He has no seminary degree. In fact not even a high school education. He doesn't even belong to a denomination. He would feel totally out of place in most churches in America. There is no mega church for him to show off his gifts in. No TV cameras documenting his "spirituality." No pew warmers to be enamoured with his eloquent words and prayers, and library of knowledge. He has rough hands from hard labor. He weeps when he shares his testimony and remembers the kind of person he was when he was strung out and living in the streets.
Tongues would really come in handy because he doesn't speak english and his wife has to translate for him.
I have friends who are pentecostal, baptists, catholic, methodist, pres., etc. Not once have I been able to equate "spirituality" with speaking in tongues. Not ONCE.
In fact the most spirtitual people are probably people you will never meet and never see. They are consistently doing the thankless work where no one is watching and no one is looking.
Could be??jlay wrote:Jac,
Aren't smilies modern day tongues?
Wow. I didn't expect it to come out this soon.Apparently we have very different experiences.
How does that contradict anything I said? I think you have read something into my posts that is simply not there. Let me elaborate.I've found the most spiritual people to be those that seek to be in God's perfect will for their life. As they do, I've noticed a trend where they often leave the pew/background and begin to effect God's will for their lives.
Uh, no, I never said that. That is a flat misrepresentation of what I said. My response is to your insinuation that tongues and true spirituality are somehow connected. I said theyI haven't really seen someone grow very close to God and then become quiet and nondiscernable. Interesting you have.
Pardon my poor english, but I was referring to that being the modern "church" institution, not the body of Christ. You would barely notice them, because they don't see "church" as an event on Sunday morning, or a building. Their work is outside the four walls. They become non discenrable because God's work often puts them in places where there is no one to notice. Right now, there is some foriegn missionary trekking through the jungle, invisible to the world. His personality and disposition could be soft spoken, or out spoken.are people you wouldn't barely notice in church.
Yet the example you site to disagree with me, agrees with me.The most spiritual people I have ever known that lived the godliest lives were spirit filled believers that spoke in tongues.
And we shall applaud you when you do. For now though I really can't see how asserting that Christians must become wallflowers as they draw near to God has any Biblical foundation. In fact, scripture shows us that the Apostolic Church and the apostles did just the opposite both in deed and in their writings. So it appears you are standing on sand of your own imagination.Jac3510 wrote:Wow. I didn't expect it to come out this soon.Apparently we have very different experiences.
And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the basic problem with all form of charismatic Christianity. Personal experience becomes the means by which the Bible is interpreted and spiritual reality known. In this view, we base our theology on what we experience. When you encounter someone with a different experience, you are forced to write them off. And usually, you pity them . . . how sad . . . they haven't really experienced this amazingness!
Blah. I'll stand on the Word of God, not my fallible experience. Sola Scriptura.
jlay wrote:How does that contradict anything I said? I think you have read something into my posts that is simply not there. Let me elaborate.I've found the most spiritual people to be those that seek to be in God's perfect will for their life. As they do, I've noticed a trend where they often leave the pew/background and begin to effect God's will for their lives.
--> Don't be angry. I simply pointed out what I have observed.
Uh, no, I never said that. That is a flat misrepresentation of what I said. My response is to your insinuation that tongues and true spirituality are somehow connected. I said theyI haven't really seen someone grow very close to God and then become quiet and nondiscernable. Interesting you have.--> Again I have observed what I have observed. I did not state my observation constituted a one-to-one relationship without exception nor a law of nature... lol. No silly person, you took it that way because you chose too take it that way and then you chose to begin arguing as if I had said that. You are the one misrepresenting what I said my angry friend. I fully support the scriptural use of tongues.are people you wouldn't barely notice in church.
--> If I wish to state something as a fact, I might say something along the lines that that one can logically deduce that a person exercising a spiritual gift from God would, at the least, have some/have had some form of relationship with Him on any level at some point in the past or present.
Pardon my poor english, but I was referring to that being the modern "church" institution, not the body of Christ. You would barely notice them, because they don't see "church" as an event on Sunday morning, or a building. Their work is outside the four walls. They become non discenrable because God's work often puts them in places where there is no one to notice. Right now, there is some foriegn missionary trekking through the jungle, invisible to the world. His personality and disposition could be soft spoken, or out spoken.
One's disposition is not an indicator of spirituality. God can and does use loud people and quiet people. Sadly I think many in the church think loudness equates to spirituality. I think there are those who feel they haven't been to a preaching unless they've been yelled at for 45 minutes. Being loud or quite is a personality type, not a spiritual gift. It is a very dangerous and wrong thing to equate spirituality with personality type. If you care to re-read my post, you will see that I did not state such. One of my good friends, stephen, is very loud, very commanding, and a spirit filled person. But he spoke one day, and wanted to make sure that everyone knew that God uses people like him, and God uses quiet people as well, and to not fall prey to the idea that he was "more" spiritual, because he is vocal, and outspoken. I contrast Stephen with another good friend Gregg. Greg is quiet, unassuming and actually has a speech impetiment. Yet, he goes into prisons and spends entire weekends ministering the gospel. God has used each.
Ironically you have chosen a desrciption of spirituality in your latest post (Sonny and the Lady) that is biblically sound and agrees with my example, and doesn't even mention toungues. And yet somehow, you want to use this as an example to disagree. Those are fantastic examples. Remember you said,Yet the example you site to disagree with me, agrees with me.The most spiritual people I have ever known that lived the godliest lives were spirit filled believers that spoke in tongues.
Friend, tongues is not a demonstration of one's spirituality. Tongues in not a fruit by which we can measure the quality of the tree.
?The most spiritual people I have ever known that lived the godliest lives were spirit filled believers that spoke in tongues.
Neither Jac nor myself have stated that a Christian is to be a dud or a wallflower. But, are you insinuating that a quiet, non-discernable person like my friend Gregg is not being used of God?I haven't really seen someone grow very close to God and then become quiet and nondiscernable. Interesting you have.