Evidence for God from Science

Kurieuo wrote:Actually by your same logic which wouldn't the soldiers be the killers and not Hitler?

By logic, both are killers. However there is no comparison between Hitler and Obama on the abortion issue. Hitler ordered and headed genocide to purify the human race. Obama simply is a political head that supports what apparently most of the country and world agrees with.

Kurieuo wrote:Your comments here just support what I said, only rather than being inconsistent, you are more positively showing you are for allowing the killing of unborn human life.

If you're going to make this claim about a sinner (me) unable to stop humanities sins, how much more do you judge God on his allowing of such acts of which His is fully able to stop ALL sin!? Thank you for that though.

Kurieuo, you seem to be missing my whole question...which regardless of my stance on Obama (whom I don't support) and abortion is this: What right does Jac3510 have in proclaiming dogmatically that ANYONE that voted for Obama has the blood of all abortion deaths past and future on their hands and the mere vote is a sin? While my stance on abortion has been given and my distaste for Obama has been stated many times on this forum, these are not the issue here.

Kurieuo wrote:You didn't read my post (third one back from this) about 'pro-choice' did you Bavarian? Seems like you only see one of two options which just backs up my thoughts that you don't really consider the unborn as valuable human lives. What does it mean to be pro-choice? I wonder if you would be pro-choice on infanticide, or slavery, or how about pro-choice drink driving?

I did read it. It plays no relevance to my question above...which is my whole reason for questioning Jac3510 on his dogmatic statement. I will, remind you that I place all human life at equal importance and not one over another. I will, however throw you my stance on slavery...slavery is wrong. While I lean towards the pro-choice, I realize that abortion is wrong. There's no doubt of that in my mind.

Kurieuo wrote:Read over Bavarian's posts again and you should notice what he writes is a lot more than responding to the issue of voting the wrong person in being a sin.

It sure does...because if you partake of alcohol and support the legal intake of it...then any death as a result of abusing alcohol is, by Jac3510's statement on a vote for Obama, also placing that blood on your hands...and I'm sure you would disagree. Conveniently, you don't equate the two. Interesting because I'm sure you'd agree with:

Matthew 5:21, 22 NIV wrote:You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, `Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment. But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, `Raca,' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, `You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

Matthew 5:27, 28 NIV wrote:You have heard that it was said, `Do not commit adultery. But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

But "supporting" legal consumption of alcohol isn't the same thing as a vote for Obama...in Jac3510's dogmatic statement? Seriously.

Kurieuo wrote:Bavarian on the other hand has proclaimed himself as pro-choice so is a whole different kettle of fish.

This isn't even the point of the question I raised about Jac3510's dogmatic statment. As distasteful as you promote me as being for a leaning on the pro-choice side, it has no bearing on the question. It matter not whether the person calling Jac3510 is pro-life or pro-choice, does it? All I know is God is pro-choice on ALL issues (in context of allowing and not dictating His will on us) since he's given us the ability to choose freely. His gift of choice/freewill does not make a choice of an act murder/killing right nor does it make a "wrong vote" a sin.

Canuckster1127 wrote:As I've stated before too, I am pro-life and I've never voted for a pro-choice candidate at the national level.

I don't however accept that a pro-life position is a litmus test for any and every vote for the following reasons:

It seems while we both may not agree on the pro-life and pro-choice aspect, I can say I agree with your reasons.
.
.

An organized activity to show Obama your views on abortion.

"On March 31st, 2009: get a red envelope You can buy them at Kinkos, or party supply stores. On the front, address it to:

President Barack Obama
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Ave. NW
Washington , DC 20500

On the back, write the following message:

"This envelope represents one child who died because of an abortion.
It is empty because the life that was taken is now unable to be a part of our world."

It may seem that those who believe abortion is wrong are in a minority. It may seem like we have no voice & it's shameful to even bring it up. Let us show our President & the world that the voices of those of us who do not believe abortion is acceptable are not silent & must be heard

Barack Obama spoke at a Planned Parenthood Action Fund event, uttering the now infamous line, "Well, the first thing I'd do as president is sign the Freedom of Choice Act. {applause.} That's the first thing that I'd do."

An empty red envelope will send a message to President Obama that there is moral outrage over this issue (the Freedom of Choice Act, which will undo every law currently in place to limit abortion in the U.S. (parental consent laws, parental notification, waiting periods, prohibition of transporting a minor girl across state lines to obtain an abortion, etc.)). It will be quiet, but clear

Mail the envelope on March 31st, 2009"

What does this mean? Universal Health Care, of course!

Kurieuo wrote:

Cross.eyed wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:Meh... and then there was a move in Australia for us to do the same thing [give tax dollars to murder babies in third world countries]. It really sickens me and makes me wonder at times why God even bothers with us. I'd just want to bring it all to an end now if I were Him. Who can understand the patience and grace He demonstrates?

Noone.

Like you and many others it makes me sick just to think about it.
Here in the U.S., If given the opportunity, I think the majority would vote to do away with using our tax dollars to fund abortion but thats not gonna happen anyways soon.

It is a shame when those in office disregard the will of the people even to the point of murder for their own agenda of getting reelected.

You may remember another thread where we discussed abortion and I asked the question;
How did Scott Peterson get the death penality for murder in the death of his unborn son, and yet we have a law that allows the murders of the unborn everyday to be legal???

Maybe you could enlighten me on this.

Now I feel sick.

I've been feeling sick more and more lately along with my wife over this issue.

Maybe moreso now because we have a baby and another little one due 7 months. That and perhaps we seem to be confronted more and more with this horrible issue.

You know what's ironic? Abortion is legal in any stage now, but people are still horrified when babies are killed (born babies). Like I read a story once of a guy who wasn't ready to be a dad and killed his own newborn. Why does that shock people, when murdering unborn babies they aren't "ready" for (but clearly were not responsible enough to prevent) doesn't?

I dunno...maybe this really belong on the abortion thread, but since Obama does support abortion, I suppose it's on topic...

The U.S. is only getting what it asked for. We have been sliding down for over a generation. I have over fourteen years time in youth pastor experience. I have observed the youth all but completely ignored. If an adult bible study starts, the teacher is carefully picked and the theology is scrutinized. Any warm body can teach Sunday school. The stories of the bible are taught in fable form on a flannel board. Most Christians know nothing about biblical apologetics, and church discipline is all but dead. Finally, the great thinkers of our time, C.S. Lewis, Frances Schaffer, etc. are conversation pieces, but rarely read.

The church has been asleep for a long time. It is time to wake up. Obama is the product of apathy. Liberal dominance is the product of cowardice. I never held back from the teenagers during my time as a youth pastor. Greater then fourteen of them are in full time ministry and the majority still follow Christ. My oldest daughter's dream is to be a vet missionary. The truth in love hurts at first, but the reward is very sweet.

We can win the world back one soul at a time.

richard handran wrote:The U.S. is only getting what it asked for. We have been sliding down for over a generation. I have over fourteen years time in youth pastor experience. I have observed the youth all but completely ignored. If an adult bible study starts, the teacher is carefully picked and the theology is scrutinized. Any warm body can teach Sunday school. The stories of the bible are taught in fable form on a flannel board. Most Christians know nothing about biblical apologetics, and church discipline is all but dead. Finally, the great thinkers of our time, C.S. Lewis, Frances Schaffer, etc. are conversation pieces, but rarely read.

The church has been asleep for a long time. It is time to wake up. Obama is the product of apathy. Liberal dominance is the product of cowardice. I never held back from the teenagers during my time as a youth pastor. Greater then fourteen of them are in full time ministry and the majority still follow Christ. My oldest daughter's dream is to be a vet missionary. The truth in love hurts at first, but the reward is very sweet.

We can win the world back one soul at a time.

I think Carman's song "Our Turn Now" applies well to our generation, and your statement about the Church needing to wake up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofHTh9EKzr4

Richard,

Right on!!

jlay wrote:Richard,

Right on!!

Mega ditto's, I've been following how the Church has become weaker and weaker.

Many well intended Christians go to Church, but are afraid to show their faith anywhere else.
Some of this has to do with the recent backlashes from the M.S.M. portraying Christianity
in a poor light.

Richard is right-most people don't study apologetics- so their not so sure of how to answer
for the hope that is within them.

Is it possible that the heart of Western Civilization could turn toward God in our lifetimes? I am skeptical; however, when I run across new movements beginning to arise in this nation such as www.christianshelpingourworld.org it gives me hope.

ageofknowledge wrote:Is it possible that the heart of Western Civilization could turn toward God in our lifetimes? I am skeptical; however, when I run across new movements beginning to arise in this nation such as http://www.christianshelpingourworld.org it gives me hope.

While I do believe we should make a difference and not just sit with a "come what may" attitude, I think the world will always be the world. Man is sinful, and the world is going to stay pretty awful until Christ returns. So while I am disgusted by our nation's status, I am not surprised...mostly saddened. I can spread the truth all I want, but if someone has already decidedly hardened their heart towards God, there isn't going to be enough logic in the world to overturn that. Just look at Pharaoh: he had all the plagues as evidence, and it didn't stop him. Maybe Pharaoh is a good picture of our nation.

richard handran wrote:The U.S. is only getting what it asked for. We have been sliding down for over a generation. I have over fourteen years time in youth pastor experience. I have observed the youth all but completely ignored. If an adult bible study starts, the teacher is carefully picked and the theology is scrutinized. Any warm body can teach Sunday school. The stories of the bible are taught in fable form on a flannel board. Most Christians know nothing about biblical apologetics, and church discipline is all but dead. Finally, the great thinkers of our time, C.S. Lewis, Frances Schaffer, etc. are conversation pieces, but rarely read.

The church has been asleep for a long time. It is time to wake up. Obama is the product of apathy. Liberal dominance is the product of cowardice. I never held back from the teenagers during my time as a youth pastor. Greater then fourteen of them are in full time ministry and the majority still follow Christ. My oldest daughter's dream is to be a vet missionary. The truth in love hurts at first, but the reward is very sweet.

We can win the world back one soul at a time.

It's amazing to me how low the expectations for our youth are. They are treated like imbiciles and little is required from them. One hundred years ago a 16 year old was married and farming their own plot of land. Public education doesn't help the situation. In the Los Angeles Unified School District (a district which spends a fortune on public education and a high per pupil cost), the Mayor claims almost 50% dropout before graduation. Many of them end up in gangs living a life of crime and graduate to California state prisons. Public education is a complete failure in many parts of the country. It's more of a leftist marxist indoctrination system than anything else that gives poor results scholastically speaking. School vouchers should be implemented allowing parents to remove their offspring from public schools and place them in the many private schools (many of which would be affiliated with churches) that would spring up as a result. A better education for less money without the godless marxist idiotology. Young people would be challenged once more.

Kurieuo wrote:

The walls between races and tribes; natives and immigrants; Christian and Muslim and Jew cannot stand. These now are the walls we must tear down," Senator Obama said, drawing cheers and applause.

(http://www.news.com.au/story/0,,24075180-401,00.html)

Think about this statement.

What does it mean?

What ideals does it support?

Must we all agree with Obama's beliefs and those beliefs of people who are Muslim, Christian, Jew, of a particular race or culture must have their beliefs and differences torn down?

he said the walls BETWEEN races and tribes etc cannot stand. Meaning he does not want any discrimination.