Evidence for God from Science

I welcome Obama's health care reform. We have 47 million uninsured and at least that many underinsured citizens in this country. The holocaust of suffering and premature death due to untreated sickness and illness must end. It makes sense to have a healthy population that can work and pay taxes. And the right wingers have been spreading a lot of misinformation. It makes sense to take a look at it so as to communicate accurate information.

And at least a thrid of those 47 miollion tht you have quoted are non-tax paying illegal immigrants, not to mention that the majority of those that will in all likelihood use his plan either do not pay taxes or are in the lowest tax brackets.

It won't do the financial situation any good and will burden the system any more. You will have the same people paying even more taxes for those that don't. And Obama has hedged on raising middle class taxes.

Consider me on the "fish" list then (I can already hear the gestapo's footsteps). If I didn't know any better I'd be wishing for this plan to be put in action just so everyone can see what a terrible thing it is. But I have my children's future to consider.

zoegirl wrote:And at least a thrid of those 47 miollion tht you have quoted are non-tax paying illegal immigrants, not to mention that the majority of those that will in all likelihood use his plan either do not pay taxes or are in the lowest tax brackets.

It won't do the financial situation any good and will burden the system any more. You will have the same people paying even more taxes for those that don't. And Obama has hedged on raising middle class taxes.

Most of the uninsured in the US are citizens (78%) but there is a huge number of people that are underinsured with catastrophic plans that need to be upgraded to care that does something for them should they need it. And the health care will be restricted to citizens. In essence, it will remove one of the magnets that draw illegals which will have a material impact on anchor baby tourism and the social costs associated with that and also have a minor beneficial impact on Americans looking for work that cannot get it because the industries they are qualified for are held by illegal immigrant networks. Studies show Americans pay taxes at a higher rate than illegals (some of whom pay taxes) so this will mean more tax income if those networks can be cracked. That will help this 45% of the uninsured under 65 demographic who happen to be poor. Plus it will help well educated people who have a splendid work history but find themselves sick, unemployed, and poor. We can be restored and put back in the job market. We believe that is better than throwing us under the bus and saying tough luck on your way to church to praise the Lord. Matthew 25:41-46.

rodyshusband wrote:

Harry12345 wrote:

rodyshusband wrote:Harry, you stated your case very well.

I hope I'm not put on the "fishy" list.

Lol, what's the "fishy" list?

If it's something bad you're not on it.

The Obama administration is encouraging supporters of the health care initiative to report e-mails and websites that are challenging the plan. This way, the admin can refute any "disinformation". The contrary commentaries have been referred to as "fishy".
Some feel this in violation of the Constitution and that the admin will "keep tabs" of dissidents.

Well you're on no fishy list that I've reported to.

The Democratically-controlled committee voted 23-18 to defeat the measure introduced by Rep. Dean Heller (R-NV), which would have required the use of the existing Income and Eligibility Verification System and the Systematic Alien Verification for Entitlements System, before any care is given. This move would have ensured that only U.S. citizens would receive the taxpayer funded care.

Obama has publicly stated that illegal aliens will not be covered by his plan and that Mexico needs to take that responsibility for its citizens seriously.

As a result, we see the following line among the 1018 page bill: Sec. 59B, Pg. 170, Line 1—“Any NONRESIDENT alien is exempt from individual taxes.”

There seems to be no reason to tax them for health insurance they won't be receiving.

BUT, Judicial Watch's president Tom Fitton recently reported that Mexico directs their citizens who live in the U.S. illegally, to use taxpayer funded clinics in a dozen cities. The program is called Ventanillas de Salud (Health Windows), and is implemented in American cities which have Mexican consulates.

The government of Mexico has operated the program for some time. In 2007, Fitton wrote the following:

“Chicago, Houston, Los Angeles, San Diego and Indiana are among the cities where Mexican consulates operate the health referral system which annually costs U.S. taxpayers billions of dollars. In Los Angeles County alone, illegal immigrants cost taxpayers nearly $440 million in health services annually and a whopping $1.1 billion statewide.

The Mexican consul in Los Angeles proudly announced that nearly 300,000 Mexicans in the area have benefited from his government's health referral program, which he says actually saves the county money by encouraging immigrants to seek preventive care rather than waiting for more expensive emergency treatment.

The Southern California operation promises to assess “consulate clients” for eligibility to government-funded health insurance and other primary care services and offers free legal assistance to those who are denied coverage. Its goal is to improve access to health services for immigrants of Mexican origin by formalizing a health education, medical home referral and insurance enrollment program.”

Ensuring our national health care plan is restricted to citizens while working with Mexico to take on that responsibility for their own citizens, rather than having an official policy of pushing that responsibility off on American taxpayers for Mexican citizens that are here illegally, is a necessity and ultimately in the best interests of both countries.

I am contacting my representatives and letting them know this.

ageofknowledge wrote:I am contacting my representatives and letting them know this.

Good idea (for all to do).

Couple of days ago I was watching Good Morning America (I believe) and they had something on what is called 'direct access' clinics, I think somewhere in California (I looked for a link, couldn't find it). These are clinics that people can subscribe to directly with premiums ranging from $40 to $170 monthly and that cover basic preventative care (which is what the majority of people will ever need). This program cuts out not only the middle man, it cuts out the insurance companies entirely. It doesn't cover hospitalization and long term care but they're working on making deals with insurance companies to that end. And yes, they are for profit outfits and are making money without compromising patient care.

These are the kinds of ideas that we need, a combination of new laws that make sense (that don't saddle our children with more debt) and innovative thinking that challenges the status quo.

cslewislover wrote:That is really neat, about the clinics.

The plan in the Netherlands that Harry described. It sounds like it's really all private, it's just that the govt requires insurance companies it accept those with pre-existing conditions. This sounds very good. If all co.s had the requirement, the expenses would all come out in the wash for everyone, right? And it's all still private. This is my understanding of what Harrry wrote.

Yep, pretty much. The quality of the USA's health care will not change a bit. A Netherlands-style reform would focus on insurance, not the health care itself.

As long as it doesn't exclude people leaving them to twist in the wind without medical care I'm for it. If uninsured people, unemployed people, sick people, and disabeled people have access to it that's fine.

If not, then it doesn't meet the need and millions continue to suffer and die unnecessarily. All you've done is move things around and deceived yourselves. The holocaust continues. Jesus is not pleased with hard hearted Christians that actively resist every attempt to provide medical care to the millions of poor and needy in this country while looking for ways to maximize their own access (such as getting rid of the insurability clause for themselves to make their lives better but throwing the poor and needy under the bus).

ageofknowledge wrote:As long as it doesn't exclude people leaving them to twist in the wind without medical care I'm for it. If uninsured people, unemployed people, sick people, and disabeled people have access to it that's fine.

Yes; insurance companies are not allowed to deny coverage to, or charge more premiums for, disabled people, people with disabilities, or people for any other reason. If you are poor, the government will subsidise (partially or completely, depending on how poor you are and for what reason) your insurance fees, while you still retain choice over which hospital, ambulance service etc. you use.

ageofknowledge wrote:As long as it doesn't exclude people leaving them to twist in the wind without medical care I'm for it. If uninsured people, unemployed people, sick people, and disabeled people have access to it that's fine.

If I recall correctly, one of its attractions was the no restriction on pre-existing conditions. This may not solve the health care crisis in its entirety but it's a start. Like I said, with a combination of other things like tort reform, radical change in employer-sponsored insurance and other innovative ideas, we may actually come up with a universal health care system everyone can support and benefit from.

I still strongly believe that ObamaCare is not the right way to go for this country. We are the greatest country in the world and I have to believe that we are capable of coming up with a plan that is beneficial to all CITIZENS of this country. Whether Obama and his peeps can do it or not, I don't know. I doubt it, but who knows. Maybe what he should do is get a collection of the smartest people in all the associated fields concerning health care and try to formulate a plan that works for everyone.

ageofknowledge wrote:Jesus is not pleased with hard hearted Christians that actively resist every attempt to provide medical care to the millions of poor and needy in this country while looking for ways to maximize their own access

Jesus says,
"Behold, I am sending you out as sheep in the midst of wolves, so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves."

Age, you consistently misrepresent on Views. None of us is saying that these people should not be taken care of. You act and write as if we are sitting back gleefully wringing on hands at the suffering.

You are representing us as poor Christians, evil and rejecting Christ values and I for one am tired of this!

Whether you support socialism, communism, or democracy doesn't reflect upon one's willingness to be compassionate to the poor. The ultimate point is whether this works!!

The laughable but tragic thing is that obama himself provided a good example of why the government should not directly be involved. Yesterday he blundered out a comment designed originally to dispel the worries that the private companies want be able to compete with the subsidized gov't plan (they wont).

He brought up the Us Post office and how Fed Ex and UPS are making money and it's the US. Postal Service that 13 suffering.... Exactly! the U.S. health care will hemorrhage money just like the US Postal Service but with wl he health care we would only have two op-bins... raise taxes as As it continues to hemorrhage or cut costs and services like the US Post office. But because we will continue to poor money into this, the other companies will not be able to keep up with the subsidized care.

The very fact the most of the members of congress haven't read the bill, don't have any clue what is in it, or cannot promise that we won't have to go on the system is a big flashing red light. they unit even agree to be on the plan... which is rather telling, don't you think?

I certainly disagree with this on principle, but that does not make me any less of a Christian! Nd925 had the best response. Surely we can gather better experts on this matter than some of the goofballs (ahem... Pelosi in Congress.

It is not so much the bill as those who behind the scenes will write the policy after such bill is passed. So far, those that will be writing the policy and legal language of the Health Care Bill will not be elected officials but rather appointed by the President. Look at those people and who they are. One is a documented Communist, others hold to the - in time of crisis - ration health care ideas.

The Politicians can say the bill does not have this or that in it but the reality is what the bill will degenerate into in a few years. They key to understanding Progressive Liberal is by understanding that they want to take control slowly by small increments that move progressively to change into the final Evolutionary Socialist Model outcome. Obama stated I think in 2003, that he wants the public option to health care but understands that it may take until 2020 to come into full effect.

Also, Obama stated during the campaign that he wants all Americans to have the same type of health care that he as a member of Congress then has. Note that this has changed. Also note that if this plan was so good and great then members of Congress must put themselves in it. They either need to put up or shut up. If this fantastic health care plan is so great then why isn't it good enough for congress?

These points are telling. Lastly, remember the evil never announces itself as evil but rather announces itself as good. It is best not to pass a bill of this magnitude that members of Congress are unwilling to subject themselves and their families under. They need to slow down.
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