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Re: Does the forum believe in the rapture??
Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 6:52 am
by RickD
abelcainsbrother wrote:RickD wrote:ACB wrote:
The thing about the rapture that seems to get left out is only those Christians ready will be raptured,not every christian,there will be Christians left behind that will realize they were left and they will probably be beheaded by the anti-christ.a lot of times they make it seem that all believers will be raptured but this is not true,one way or another your faith will matter,now or later.
Do you have scripture that backs this up?
Yes Matthew 24:45-51.
also Matthew 25:1-13
Revelation 20:4.
None of those show, nevermind prove that some Christians will be left behind, while others will be raptured.
Re: Does the forum believe in the rapture??
Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 7:36 am
by PaulSacramento
I have heard various interpretations of the rapture events, none of them really mean much to me.
It will be the way God intends it to be, period.
Some argue that this passage means some will go and some will stay, but I don't think so:
36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. 37 For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left.
First off there is no indication that both are believers and seems to imply, passed on the whole Chapter, that the believer will go and the non-believer will stay.
Also it states explicitly that it will happen WHEN the Son of Man comes.
Of course 1Thessalonians is clear about when the rapture will happen:
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
It is clear that Christ will came and then those in Christ (both alive and dead) will be caught up together.
Re: Does the forum believe in the rapture??
Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 11:48 pm
by abelcainsbrother
RickD wrote:abelcainsbrother wrote:RickD wrote:ACB wrote:
The thing about the rapture that seems to get left out is only those Christians ready will be raptured,not every christian,there will be Christians left behind that will realize they were left and they will probably be beheaded by the anti-christ.a lot of times they make it seem that all believers will be raptured but this is not true,one way or another your faith will matter,now or later.
Do you have scripture that backs this up?
Yes Matthew 24:45-51.
also Matthew 25:1-13
Revelation 20:4.
None of those show, nevermind prove that some Christians will be left behind, while others will be raptured.
If they refer to the rapture like I think they do then yes they do,but if not then what can it be referring to the 2nd coming? I don't think so. Mathew 25:1-13 about the ten virgins represents Christians and yet 5 are wise and have oil and 5 are unwise and run out of oil,when Jesus comes to rapture the 5 unwise go to find oil but are left out.This is not easy to receive which is probably why it gets left out a lot when they teach on the rapture.But I think we'll be fine as long as we watch and keep our focus on Jesus.
Re: Does the forum believe in the rapture??
Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 12:12 am
by abelcainsbrother
Rob wrote:abelcainsbrother wrote:
First off if you accept the rapture like I do then it happens before the 2nd coming of Jesus and so is next,now if you reject a rapture then you'll probably claim the verses I gave are talking about the 2nd coming.It is important to know that in the rapture Jesus only comes to the clouds and those who have not died yet are caught up with him in the air,it is important to know that "caught up" and raptured mean the same thing in English and it is easier to say rapture instead of "caught up".Now in the 2nd coming Christ comes back at the end of the tribulation and destroys the armies attacking Israel and comes all the way down to the earth,then sets up his thousand year reign on this earth,so there are differences between the rapture and the 2nd coming.
Matthew 24:29-30 is referring to the 2nd coming not the rapture the verses I gave do refer to the rapture.1st Thessalonians 4:16-18 tell us about the rapture and you'll see the words "caught up" which means the same thing as the word raptured.I can say I will be caught up and meet Jesus or I can say I will be raptured and meet Jesus.
Also notice in 2nd Thessalonians 2:1 the phrase " and our gathering together with him"this refers to the rapture because those raptured are gathered together with Jesus in the clouds and so if you read verse 1,2 and 3 it reveals the Antichrist will be revealed before the rapture happens which is why I think the rapture happens about a year into the tribulation,it takes time for the Antichrist to deceive the world and the first part of the trib is not as bad as the 2nd part.
Oh I do think there will be a rapture. Scripture is clear that we will be caught up with the Lord, but I just don't think you can safely say there'll be two, the first of which being a secret one. The passages you referenced don't really cut it, IMO. I was raised on the pre-trib rapture belief and just sort of took it for granted. After I seriously looked into it, I came away with a different interpretation than one I'd been raised on.
I presented this view to some people I know and they rejected it saying they were pre-trib because they were "all for getting out of here before anything bad happens."
That struck me as funny that it was based on what they
wanted to be true rather than what scripture says. I imagine that some who take the pre-trib rapture for granted will probably lose faith and become bitter if it doesn't happen.
A pretty good video that sums up my view of things when it comes to the rapture:
http://youtu.be/JV2txxxdVEQ
Yeah I was raised on the pre-trib rapture stuff too and I used to have a friend and me and him exchanged ideas and discussed end-time bible prophecy but I noticed 2nd Thessalonians 2:1,2 and 3 and realized the Antichrist will be revealed before the rapture,then I realized the Antichrist appears peaceful at first and it takes him time to deceive the world,so although I don't set dates for the rapture I think it'll happen not long after the Antichrist is revealed,Christians who are watching will know when he is revealed.
Here is a recent teaching by Perry Stone and he deals with the lack of a belief in the rapture
now.And I think gives very good evidence for the rapture in this video.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0I7ZyEzxBA
Re: Does the forum believe in the rapture??
Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 3:49 am
by Mallz
If they refer to the rapture like I think they do then yes they do,but if not then what can it be referring to the 2nd coming? I don't think so. Mathew 25:1-13 about the ten virgins represents Christians and yet 5 are wise and have oil and 5 are unwise and run out of oil,when Jesus comes to rapture the 5 unwise go to find oil but are left out.This is not easy to receive which is probably why it gets left out a lot when they teach on the rapture.But I think we'll be fine as long as we watch and keep our focus on Jesus.
Christians are raptured, but the ones with the extra oil (the filling of the Holy Spirit, not just the indwelling) will be a part of the wedding.
The only 'Christians' that won't be raptured are the ones who really aren't Christians.
Re: Does the forum believe in the rapture??
Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 4:36 am
by Kurieuo
ARKANSAS CITY (AP) — A Little Rock woman was killed yesterday after leaping through her moving car's sun roof during an incident best described as "a mistaken rapture" by dozens of eye witnesses. Thirteen other people were injured after a twenty-car pile up resulted from people trying to avoid hitting the woman who was apparently convinced Jesus that the rapture was occurring when she saw twelve people floating up into the air, and then passed a man on the side of the road who she claimed was Jesus.
"She started screaming "He's back, He's back" and climbed right out of the sunroof and jumped off the roof of the car," said Everett Williams, husband of 28-year-old Georgann Williams who was pronounced dead at the scene. "I was slowing down but she wouldn't wait till I stopped," Williams said.
She thought the rapture was happening and was convinced that Jesus was gonna lift her up into the sky," he went on to say. "This is the strangest thing I've seen since I've been on the force," said Paul Madison, first officer on the scene. Madison questioned the man who looked like Jesus and discovered that he was dressed up as Jesus and was on his way to a toga costume party when the tarp covering the bed of his pickup truck came loose and released twelve blow up sex dolls filled with helium which floated up into the air.
Ernie Jenkins, 32, of Fort Smith, who's been told by several of his friends that he looks like Jesus, pulled over and lifted his arms into the air in frustration, and said , "Come back here," just as the Williams' car passed him, and Mrs. Williams was sure that it was Jesus lifting people up into the sky as they passed by him, according to her husband, who says his wife loved Jesus more than anything else.
When asked for comments about the twelve sex dolls, Jenkins replied "This is all just too weird for me. I never expected anything like this to happen."
Read more at
http://www.snopes.com/religion/rapture.asp#uipcLIgpKQ7Tue6v.99
Re: Does the forum believe in the rapture??
Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 6:16 am
by RickD
Re: Does the forum believe in the rapture??
Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 9:32 am
by Mallz
Re: Does the forum believe in the rapture??
Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 7:32 pm
by abelcainsbrother
Mallz wrote:If they refer to the rapture like I think they do then yes they do,but if not then what can it be referring to the 2nd coming? I don't think so. Mathew 25:1-13 about the ten virgins represents Christians and yet 5 are wise and have oil and 5 are unwise and run out of oil,when Jesus comes to rapture the 5 unwise go to find oil but are left out.This is not easy to receive which is probably why it gets left out a lot when they teach on the rapture.But I think we'll be fine as long as we watch and keep our focus on Jesus.
Christians are raptured, but the ones with the extra oil (the filling of the Holy Spirit, not just the indwelling) will be a part of the wedding.
The only 'Christians' that won't be raptured are the ones who really aren't Christians.
I think 10 virgins means Christians also it says he cuts them a portion as with the hypocrites,hypocrites is a word not well understood most think hypocrite means somebody who says one thing but does another,but hypocrites were actors that put on plays and skits in the roman coliseum and they were actors and very popular like Hollywood actors today,so a hypocrite would be somebody putting on an act that they are a christian but really aren't.
I'm not trying to be a know it all just trying to back up why I think some Christians will be left behind when the rapture happens.
Re: Does the forum believe in the rapture??
Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 7:51 pm
by abelcainsbrother
abelcainsbrother wrote:Rob wrote:abelcainsbrother wrote:
First off if you accept the rapture like I do then it happens before the 2nd coming of Jesus and so is next,now if you reject a rapture then you'll probably claim the verses I gave are talking about the 2nd coming.It is important to know that in the rapture Jesus only comes to the clouds and those who have not died yet are caught up with him in the air,it is important to know that "caught up" and raptured mean the same thing in English and it is easier to say rapture instead of "caught up".Now in the 2nd coming Christ comes back at the end of the tribulation and destroys the armies attacking Israel and comes all the way down to the earth,then sets up his thousand year reign on this earth,so there are differences between the rapture and the 2nd coming.
Matthew 24:29-30 is referring to the 2nd coming not the rapture the verses I gave do refer to the rapture.1st Thessalonians 4:16-18 tell us about the rapture and you'll see the words "caught up" which means the same thing as the word raptured.I can say I will be caught up and meet Jesus or I can say I will be raptured and meet Jesus.
Also notice in 2nd Thessalonians 2:1 the phrase " and our gathering together with him"this refers to the rapture because those raptured are gathered together with Jesus in the clouds and so if you read verse 1,2 and 3 it reveals the Antichrist will be revealed before the rapture happens which is why I think the rapture happens about a year into the tribulation,it takes time for the Antichrist to deceive the world and the first part of the trib is not as bad as the 2nd part.
Oh I do think there will be a rapture. Scripture is clear that we will be caught up with the Lord, but I just don't think you can safely say there'll be two, the first of which being a secret one. The passages you referenced don't really cut it, IMO. I was raised on the pre-trib rapture belief and just sort of took it for granted. After I seriously looked into it, I came away with a different interpretation than one I'd been raised on.
I presented this view to some people I know and they rejected it saying they were pre-trib because they were "all for getting out of here before anything bad happens."
That struck me as funny that it was based on what they
wanted to be true rather than what scripture says. I imagine that some who take the pre-trib rapture for granted will probably lose faith and become bitter if it doesn't happen.
A pretty good video that sums up my view of things when it comes to the rapture:
http://youtu.be/JV2txxxdVEQ
Yeah I was raised on the pre-trib rapture stuff too and I used to have a friend and me and him exchanged ideas and discussed end-time bible prophecy but I noticed 2nd Thessalonians 2:1,2 and 3 and realized the Antichrist will be revealed before the rapture,then I realized the Antichrist appears peaceful at first and it takes him time to deceive the world,so although I don't set dates for the rapture I think it'll happen not long after the Antichrist is revealed,Christians who are watching will know when he is revealed.
Here is a recent teaching by Perry Stone and he deals with the lack of a belief in the rapture
now.And I think gives very good evidence for the rapture in this video.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0I7ZyEzxBA
Let me explain for clarification why the verses you gave refer to the 2nd coming and not the rapture,you asked about Matthew 24:29-30 and I say it refers to the 2nd coming and not the rapture,I could see how verse 30 appears to be referring to the rapture but in the rapture Jesus descends from heaven and comes to the clouds and the dead in Christ and those Christians still alive are caught up and taken to heaven,while in the 2nd coming Christ comes back destroys the armies attacking Israel and sets up his thousand year reign,this will require angels and Christians who were beheaded for Christ will reign with Christ as priests ruling over the entire earth under Jesus's rule and command,he will rule the world with a rod of iron,which is why the angels gather his elect from the four winds of heaven- east,south,west and north on the earth.
Re: Does the forum believe in the rapture??
Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 10:03 pm
by Rob
abelcainsbrother wrote:
Let me explain for clarification why the verses you gave refer to the 2nd coming and not the rapture,you asked about Matthew 24:29-30 and I say it refers to the 2nd coming and not the rapture,I could see how verse 30 appears to be referring to the rapture but in the rapture Jesus descends from heaven and comes to the clouds and the dead in Christ and those Christians still alive are caught up and taken to heaven,while in the 2nd coming Christ comes back destroys the armies attacking Israel and sets up his thousand year reign,this will require angels and Christians who were beheaded for Christ will reign with Christ as priests ruling over the entire earth under Jesus's rule and command,he will rule the world with a rod of iron,which is why the angels gather his elect from the four winds of heaven- east,south,west and north on the earth.
I see it is describing both the rapture and the second coming, which I believe scripture shows to be the same event and not two separate events at two different points in time.
I see no difference in those two events you describe. I see two different descriptions of the same event. Why can't Christ return on the clouds, gather the elect, then rule the earth all in one glorious swoop? Why two events?
Are you saying that Jesus will come down, gather us all, then...go back? So there'll be a third coming later? I guess when he comes back and gathers us in the air doesn't count because he doesn't come all the way down or something? Please explain.
In regards to that Perry Stone video, it's basically useless to what I'm saying.
I'm not disputing that there will be a rapture, I'm saying that the rapture or gathering of the elect and the Day of the Lord are not two separate events.
His list of the "picture of the rapture" in Exodus is tenuous at best. For instance, stating that God came with lightning on Mt Sinai, then that God comes with lightning again in Matthew 24 is misleading since Jesus's words in Matthew are clearly describing how he will come back
as lightning in the East is visible in the West, not that there will be literal lightning (though there may?). It's clearly metaphorical.
There were other issues with the video too, but again- it's worthless to me because I already believe that there will be a gathering of believers. (or rapture)
Re: Does the forum believe in the rapture??
Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 11:48 pm
by abelcainsbrother
Rob wrote:abelcainsbrother wrote:
Let me explain for clarification why the verses you gave refer to the 2nd coming and not the rapture,you asked about Matthew 24:29-30 and I say it refers to the 2nd coming and not the rapture,I could see how verse 30 appears to be referring to the rapture but in the rapture Jesus descends from heaven and comes to the clouds and the dead in Christ and those Christians still alive are caught up and taken to heaven,while in the 2nd coming Christ comes back destroys the armies attacking Israel and sets up his thousand year reign,this will require angels and Christians who were beheaded for Christ will reign with Christ as priests ruling over the entire earth under Jesus's rule and command,he will rule the world with a rod of iron,which is why the angels gather his elect from the four winds of heaven- east,south,west and north on the earth.
I see it is describing both the rapture and the second coming, which I believe scripture shows to be the same event and not two separate events at two different points in time.
I see no difference in those two events you describe. I see two different descriptions of the same event. Why can't Christ return on the clouds, gather the elect, then rule the earth all in one glorious swoop? Why two events?
Are you saying that Jesus will come down, gather us all, then...go back? So there'll be a third coming later? I guess when he comes back and gathers us in the air doesn't count because he doesn't come all the way down or something? Please explain.
In regards to that Perry Stone video, it's basically useless to what I'm saying.
I'm not disputing that there will be a rapture, I'm saying that the rapture or gathering of the elect and the Day of the Lord are not two separate events.
His list of the "picture of the rapture" in Exodus is tenuous at best. For instance, stating that God came with lightning on Mt Sinai, then that God comes with lightning again in Matthew 24 is misleading since Jesus's words in Matthew are clearly describing how he will come back
as lightning in the East is visible in the West, not that there will be literal lightning (though there may?). It's clearly metaphorical.
There were other issues with the video too, but again- it's worthless to me because I already believe that there will be a gathering of believers. (or rapture)
Yes I believe Jesus will come down,gather us who are ready,then go back and he takes us to the marriage supper of the lamb and we return with Jesus when he returns in the 2nd coming,we are the ones in robes of white that are white and clean that follow Jesus returning on his white horse in Revelation 19:14.Only 1 rapture.
And yes in the rapture Jesus only comes to the clouds in the rapture and we are raptured to meet him then taken to heaven,he does not come all the way back to earth like in the 2nd coming.This is not an issue that should divide us as we both believe a rapture is coming we just differ some,and I have not ruled out some of the things in the video you posted.I thought it was a good teaching from that perspective and I agree with a lot of it,but not sure about all of it.I have no problem changing my mind about things but I have to go over it with a fine tooth comb and pick out the good stuff from the bad.
Re: Does the forum believe in the rapture??
Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 3:31 am
by thesign
The Ascension of Christ into Heaven is the mechanics of meeting the Lord in the air. It includes a feeling of bliss.
abelcainsbrother wrote:Rob wrote:I see it is describing both the rapture and the second coming, which I believe scripture shows to be the same event and not two separate events at two different points in time.
And yes in the rapture Jesus only comes to the clouds in the rapture and we are raptured to meet him then taken to heaven,he does not come all the way back to earth like in the 2nd coming.
I have read concerning the apparitions at Medugorje the use of the term 'Great Event' to describe this. It is treated as a singular occurence, but an everlasting one.
One should effort to maintain the prophecy that Christ's Kingdom is without end already. As He said while dying, "Today though shalt be with Me in paradise." The Creed then states that Christ sits at the right hand of the Father, from whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.
But Christ also asks, "Will I find any faith on earth when I return?"
I was brought back from the dead, as dead as I'll ever be, into a third womb. Within one week while she was in term with me, I was shot twice with a .22 handgun along with mother and sire, too. Three victims, one gun. That is about the closest Christ got to finding any faith on the earth the evening of His Mother's Feastday of the Protection, October 1, 1955 A.D.(P.) According to the law, the assailant should never had seen sunrise the following morning. Yet, this past week he sat next to a lying attorney/cop accusing me of committing terrorist threats, trying to take money from their estate for having put them to a quick end. These are my fellow Americans who equate health care with murder.
Within three hours from when I actually began breathing air again, I was assaulted in the mouth with a shotgun. Here again, this is America's faith. Such assaults have continued over the years inclusive to, most recently, massive perjuries, plunders, and thefts, to which the judges say, while they passively allow such things to continue, that it is the wrong courtroom or "We'll see." Yeah, ta-ta and la-di-da.
Christ is facing such hypocrisy with me, and as I've noted, He has raised more souls just the same. He has won the battle, and the future is bright.
Re: Does the forum believe in the rapture??
Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 6:53 am
by melanie
Mallz wrote:If they refer to the rapture like I think they do then yes they do,but if not then what can it be referring to the 2nd coming? I don't think so. Mathew 25:1-13 about the ten virgins represents Christians and yet 5 are wise and have oil and 5 are unwise and run out of oil,when Jesus comes to rapture the 5 unwise go to find oil but are left out.This is not easy to receive which is probably why it gets left out a lot when they teach on the rapture.But I think we'll be fine as long as we watch and keep our focus on Jesus.
Christians are raptured, but the ones with the extra oil (the filling of the Holy Spirit, not just the indwelling) will be a part of the wedding.
The only 'Christians' that won't be raptured are the ones who really aren't Christians.
I don't think the pre-trib rapture is biblically sound.
But I see the conundrum as this.
All one can do is place their trust and love in our Lord. If we are living in the days when this will become reality then one cannot place trust in doctrine over God. On either end. If the pre-trib rapture happens to be in Gods plan then all is good but if it's not then there will be countless of christians who have been indoctrinated to believe that only 'false christians' will have to endure the tribulation. If the pre-trib rapture theory is wrong, then there will be confused, ill prepared, let down christians who have placed all their eggs in one basket at a time when believers will need all of our reserve, Faith, readiness and having on the full armour of God.
I am very wary of 'church' doctrine that is questionable scriptural interpretation. What starts as a misled interpretation of a few ends in the unquestioning, misleading and often quite damaging doctrine of far too many.
Re: Does the forum believe in the rapture??
Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 2:28 pm
by Danieltwotwenty
melanie wrote:Mallz wrote:If they refer to the rapture like I think they do then yes they do,but if not then what can it be referring to the 2nd coming? I don't think so. Mathew 25:1-13 about the ten virgins represents Christians and yet 5 are wise and have oil and 5 are unwise and run out of oil,when Jesus comes to rapture the 5 unwise go to find oil but are left out.This is not easy to receive which is probably why it gets left out a lot when they teach on the rapture.But I think we'll be fine as long as we watch and keep our focus on Jesus.
Christians are raptured, but the ones with the extra oil (the filling of the Holy Spirit, not just the indwelling) will be a part of the wedding.
The only 'Christians' that won't be raptured are the ones who really aren't Christians.
I don't think the pre-trib rapture is biblically sound.
But I see the conundrum as this.
All one can do is place their trust and love in our Lord. If we are living in the days when this will become reality then one cannot place trust in doctrine over God. On either end. If the pre-trib rapture happens to be in Gods plan then all is good but if it's not then there will be countless of christians who have been indoctrinated to believe that only 'false christians' will have to endure the tribulation. If the pre-trib rapture theory is wrong, then there will be confused, ill prepared, let down christians who have placed all their eggs in one basket at a time when believers will need all of our reserve, Faith, readiness and having on the full armour of God.
I am very wary of 'church' doctrine that is questionable scriptural interpretation. What starts as a misled interpretation of a few ends in the unquestioning, misleading and often quite damaging doctrine of far too many.
See I told you we were quite similar.
Sista!!
