Evidence for God from Science

Kurieuo wrote:

catherine wrote:B.W, I think I might be one of the ones who are called but not chosen Matt 22:14. I pray to Jesus and ask Him if He is real and to let me know He is real and He has forgiven me etc, but I never feel any different or 'understand' that I am forgiven. (I tell him I've got a hard heart that needs to be replaced). I usually get fed up of not feeling forgiven and then I 'give up' on Him - for a while, until I'm drawn back to Him. It's a vicious circle. I then think, maybe it's all a load of baloney or maybe I'm not forgiven. I've been like this for the last twenty four or so years. I can't be born again if I don't even know I'm redeemed.

This is quoted from another thread.

Catherine, I'm sure you don't mind. I just think this an important topic. Just wondering, you don't actually say you asked Christ into your life. Have you taken this step and not felt any different, or is this a step you don't feel you can sincerely take without feeling something?

To other Christians here, what do we make of those who ask Christ into their lives, but they feel none the different thereafter? Is God withholding Himself from such persons? Does He want such a person to keep seeking Him? Is the person in question not really seeking in the right way? It is not something I've actually ever thought too deeply on myself as I have always seen it as a clearcut either you come to Christ, or you dont. So I'd be interested to hear what others think.

(Romans10;9)
If thou confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved: End of story. Jesus died for every sin ever committed, and for every sin that will ever be committed, Yours included. Here are some excellent free audio teachings of the plan of Salvation. Please listen to them, they will help you!

http://www.awmi.net/extra/audio

Hebrews Highlights

War Is Over

mandelduke wrote:
(Romans10;9)
If thou confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved: End of story. Jesus died for every sin ever committed, and for every sin that will ever be committed, Yours included. Here are some excellent free audio teachings of the plan of Salvation. Please listen to them, they will help you!

http://www.awmi.net/extra/audio

Hebrews Highlights

War Is Over

Thank you mandelduke. If time allows, I'll check them out. God Bless.

mandelduke wrote: If thou confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved: End of story. ...

Romans 10:9 is offered to many people seeking salvation, and when they sincerely confess Jesus is their Lord, they are told that they have received salvation !

However, that verse is written in a letter to the church at Rome, are they not already saved yet? Of course they are! You cannot be in Christ’s body (“the church”) without having already received salvation.

The verse means to agree with what Jesus said (“confess” is homo-logos in the Greek, and means to speak the same word) and to believe that those in Him have his Life. So, having already received the Spirit, they are to live His Life, not return to ways of "the flesh".

This is seen from the previous verse:-
v8: “. . . The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart . . . “

Is the word in the heart of unsaved people? No, only Holy Spirit-indwelt people have this:-
“This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them" (Heb. 10:16; see also 2 Cor.3:3)

The unsaved natural man can believe that the bible is true, but he does not have the Life it describes until he receives the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 2:9-14, John 3:3-8).

The way of salvation had already been laid down on the day of Pentecost by the words of Peter as the perfect answer to the question... ‘Men and brethren, what shall we do?’ (Acts 2:37)

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.(vv38-39)

Much of the previous passage defines the receiving of the Holy Spirit :-
“they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance . . . (Jesus) being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.” (vv4, 33)

Jesus said that is how to receive Him and His salvation (see John 3:3-8, 14:17, 20; Mark 16:15-20; Titus3:5-6), and interestingly, Jesus made a point of saying that it’s not what we say about ourselves, it’s God’s witness we should look for:-

“If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true. There is another that beareth witness of me” (John 5:31-32)

A voice was heard when Jesus received the Holy Spirit.

The Roman Christians had already all been baptised by full immersion and had all received the Spirit with the ability to pray in tongues:-
Romans 6:3-4: Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

8:15-16: For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God.

If the context can really be ignored in order to obtain personal salvation, you might as well go straight to verse 13 which says:-
"whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
Just tell the people that they only have to say the word "Jesus" and they are born again and saved - They don't even have to confess or believe !

(In fact, “calling on the name of The Lord” to receive salvation means to pray to receive the Holy Spirit - see Acts 22:16, 1 Cor. 6:11)

So we see here in this letter that when Paul wrote to the Christians at Rome, he had acknowledged that they had already all received their salvation, the new Life, and was telling them how to stay saved, i.e. free from the power of sin, by living and relying on that new Life.

Beware the warnings in scripture of ‘another gospel’. Romans 10:9 is how to stay saved, after you have already repented, been baptised and received the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues; it is not the gospel of how to be saved in the first place!

Hi Tallman, hope you are well. I'm getting baptised in two weeks.

Tall man,
What is your definition of repent?

BTW, you are completely abusing the context of Romans 10:9. Romans 10:9 does not at all speak to staying saved, but clearly is in the context of Paul speaking about the Jews who have rejected belief in Christ.

Romans 10:9 is sandwiched between these.....
Romans 10:1 Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved.
Romans 10:14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?

Who are they? Israel.

Yes, he is writing to the Roman church, but he is clearly speaking of the the Israelites who rejected the Christ.
Romans 10:16 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news.

I can not honestly see how you can so blatantly twist these scritptures to try and fit your view of salvation. I would call it pathetic. The evidence of the Word does not support you in the least.
Paul makes a clear summary in 10:9 that this is salvation 101, and it is the same for Jew and Gentile. The Roman church was likely made up of mostly gentiles.

catherine wrote:Hi Tallman, hope you are well. I'm getting baptised in two weeks.

Hi,

I'm well, I have salvation.

The first question Paul asked people (before he even knew what they believed, only that they had a belief in Jesus) was "unto what" Acts 19:1-6.

i.e. what version of Jesus... the right one is acknowledging that you are not right with God until you receive His Spirit (evidenced by tongues), it is acknowledging that you no longer believe in any other way.

jlay wrote:Tall man,
What is your definition of repent?

Change of mind.

jlay wrote:...I can not honestly see how you can so blatantly twist these scritptures to try and fit your view of salvation. I would call it pathetic. The evidence of the Word does not support you in the least.

Interesting that you simply ignore the points I made..
Yes the whole passage is about justification through faith in Jesus, not our own works or works of the law.

It is truly a pathetic twisting of Paul's words and the other scriptures I mentioned to use v9 as an alternative or replacement for how to receive salvation.
Acts details that, never to we read of the apostles telling anyone "confess Jesus is Lord and believe God raised him and you are saved", no, they always comanded baptism in water and the need to receive the Spirit, and it was judged precisely when people received, not when they said "Jesus is Lord"... that was never demanded of anyone. The Christians Paul was writing to knew this (see Romans 6:3-4, 8:15-16, 26). Paul was writing to people who truly understiood salvation - the new LIFE, Paul is not writing to YOU, if he were he would rather say what we read in Acts 19:1-6... then you would be on an even-footing with the saints at Rome and elsewhere.

v9 is the attitude and reason behind repentence & baptism, "calling on the Lord" to be saved is praying to receive His Spirit., which washes away our old sin, replacing it with His new heart & mind.

Acts 22:16: And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

I guess you have build a foundation on this words-only salvation and to admit it's all been error is too much for you right now.

General reminder for any on this thread. Direct comments toward issues and not toward participants. Disagreement, even strong disagreement is fine. Personal comments .... not so much.

Thanks,

bart

catherine wrote:Hi Tallman, hope you are well. I'm getting baptised in two weeks.

We had a lady visit us on Sunday, she received the Spirit and got baptised straightaway, like the bible says.
She brought a friend last night, she now wants to do the same.

If you believe something is right, why wait?

To use an analogy, if there is something wrong with your car, would you wait a few weeks before getting it sorted?

Beware of rogue religious traders dressed up as slick salesmen claiming to be faithful!

TallMan wrote:

catherine wrote:Hi Tallman, hope you are well. I'm getting baptised in two weeks.

We had a lady visit us on Sunday, she received the Spirit and got baptised straightaway, like the bible says.
She brought a friend last night, she now wants to do the same.

If you believe something is right, why wait?

To use an analogy, if there is something wrong with your car, would you wait a few weeks before getting it sorted?

Beware of rogue religious traders dressed up as slick salesmen claiming to be faithful!

I think what he meant to say is congratulations.

Byblos wrote:

TallMan wrote:

catherine wrote:Hi Tallman, hope you are well. I'm getting baptised in two weeks.

We had a lady visit us on Sunday, she received the Spirit and got baptised straightaway, like the bible says.
She brought a friend last night, she now wants to do the same.

If you believe something is right, why wait?

To use an analogy, if there is something wrong with your car, would you wait a few weeks before getting it sorted?

Beware of rogue religious traders dressed up as slick salesmen claiming to be faithful!

I think what he meant to say is congratulations.

Thanks Byblos.

catherine wrote: I'm getting baptised in two weeks.

Well played Catherine.

I don't know if what I went through counts as a spiritual experience or not. My coming to Christ was not because of an extraordinary event in my life. It was a gradual "coming to Christ". Before my decision I knew of Jesus but I really didn't know Jesus. What made me decide to really believe was through an unexpected route. I wrote a book. Please forgive me if don't mention the title or where to find it. Self-promotion is not the point of this reply. The point is that when I began writing it was just a fictional story of a man that came to the faith through a supernatural experience. As I was writing the story I felt God talking to me through the words that "I" was putting down on paper. After I finished writing the book and got it self-published, I made my choice to give my life to Jesus. I now go to church on a regular basis, where before wouldn't step inside a church unless it was for a special event. I always believed that spiritual experience was something that happened all of a sudden or through a great and terrible crisis. The kind of crisis that a person's eyes would be opened to the love and mercy of God. Mine wasn't such an experience. Maybe that is probably why sometimes I find myself struggling with my faith. But, do tragic events constitute a true coming to God? Or, can it also be a gradual thing where someone comes to the Lord without facing tragedy?

mojo1211 wrote:I don't know if what I went through counts as a spiritual experience or not. My coming to Christ was not because of an extraordinary event in my life. It was a gradual "coming to Christ". Before my decision I knew of Jesus but I really didn't know Jesus. What made me decide to really believe was through an unexpected route. I wrote a book. Please forgive me if don't mention the title or where to find it. Self-promotion is not the point of this reply. The point is that when I began writing it was just a fictional story of a man that came to the faith through a supernatural experience. As I was writing the story I felt God talking to me through the words that "I" was putting down on paper. After I finished writing the book and got it self-published, I made my choice to give my life to Jesus. I now go to church on a regular basis, where before wouldn't step inside a church unless it was for a special event. I always believed that spiritual experience was something that happened all of a sudden or through a great and terrible crisis. The kind of crisis that a pereson's eyes would be opened to the love and mercy of God. Mine wasn't such an experience. Maybe that is probably why sometimes I find myself struggling with my faith. But, do tragic events constitute a true coming to God? Or, can it also be a gradual thing where someone comes to the Lord without facing tragedy?

Hi Mojo, thank you for sharing your coming to Christ. Like you, my coming to Christ has been a gradual process that has taken most of my life. I believe that God was drawing me all these years, but like the rich young man, I wasn't ready to commit fully until I'd learned the 'hard way'. I praise God that He was patient and long suffering with me, all these years. I do believe some people have a 'road to Damascus' experience that brings them to Christ, but I believe God deals with us each differently and knows what we need to come to Him.

mojo1211 wrote:II felt God talking to me through the words that "I" was putting down on paper.

Don’t you just love it when God does that.