Evidence for God from Science

Fact of the matter is, Obiwan, you will not answer the questions posed to you. Until you do, I will not go into details concerning Gen 20:13 and the use of haElohim or athahu as you show total disregard by not answering our questions.

Exodus 20:3, 4, 5 states states: "You shall have no other gods before Me. 4 "You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;:5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me.." NKJV

Mormonism makes god's of people — progress toward this end. This is violation of the first two commandments.

Therefore the question still stands — Is Mormonism in violation of the first two commandments?

Answer this, yes or no. If No then explain your line of reasoning in light of…

Isaiah 43:10, "You are My witnesses," says the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me..." NKJV

Mormon tendency is to skirt around this issue by claiming that only the BIG GOD or Only the Big kahuna God is the one they worshiped and that having other gods before you refers to not to making yourself the big kahana God but it is okay to make yourself a lesser god instead. However Bible refutes this as Isaiah 43:10 states -- that before God was NO GOD FORMED nor shall there be after....

This includes you and all Mormons. The language is pretty plain and straight forward, isn't it?

Your doctrine stands in clear violation of the first two commandments.

So does Mormonism twisting of the words Elohim and haElohim, and any further discussion on this would be pointless unless you answer the questions and stop fishing for information to use to buttress your use of twisting of scripture against Christians for your missionaries to use.

Now onward back to questions:

Next, if you say Mormons only worship the BIG GOD — then why do Mormon's worship Jesus in their songs? If you are not to allow worship lesser gods — why do you do so with Jesus? If you do worship lesser gods, then would not that be in violation of your own doctrine?

If Jesus was spouting Mormon doctrine, why did he allow himself to be worshiped? Wouldn't that be an affront to the BIG GOD — the only ONE a person is to worship?

NOW:

The Orthodox Christian Doctrine of the Trinity does not violate the first two commandments as well as leaves biblical principles expounded upon in Isaiah 43:10, Exodus 34:14, 2 Samuel 7:22, Jeremiah 10:6, Isaiah 46:9, Isaiah 45:5 intact with utterly no discrepancy as well explain the use of haElohim and paired pronouns when God refers to himself as used in the text of the bible.

Think about it — God said — “before God was NO GOD FORMED nor shall there be after...”

How can there be multiple gods if there are truly none others as God himself so says?

Again why does Mormon doctrine stand in complete defiance of the first two commandments?

Why does Mormon doctrine seek legitimacy to the serpents' words recorded in Genesis 3:5? If it is not a crime to become god if this is God's intent - then why was Adam and Eve expelled from the Garden? Why do Mormons seek to become like God in full compliance with the devil's own words?

Now if you say to be only be “like God,” means there will always be an important difference ontologically because there are lesser gods and there is the ONLY one True BIG God therefore is the BIG GOD ontologically dissimilar with the gods who preceded him since he progressed?

“Latter-day Saints believe in this progression in eternity until, eventually, we become worthy through knowledge, wisdom, humility, and obedience, to be like God, and then to have the privilege of being made equal in power, might and dominion (D&C. 76:95), and to possess all that the Father hath (D&C. 84:38) as members of 'the Church of the First-born'” (The Way to Perfection, p.9).

How can that be true in light of Isaiah 43:10?

Why don't you tackle theses questions instead of trying to wag the dog here? Trying to bait me into a discussion going into a different direction will do you or your friend's no good. When you answer these questions — then we can continue….

Answer the questions…posed here...

Does Mormon doctrine violate the first two commandments?
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Obiwan:
In This passage, the Hebrew word is the third person plural, which means "they caused to waunder" here. If the text had intended to say "He caused to waunder" it would have been written as hith'ah rather than hith'u as it is now written. That reading cannot be the result of accidental miswritting as the so - called vowel - letter suffixes are too different.

There actualy are a few other scattered passages in even our current Bible that read like this . He has misplaced them and would need to search for them.

After browsing the internet, I found the other verses that read like this:
Genesis 20:13: "And it came to pass, when God (Elohim) caused me to wander [literally: They caused me to wander] from my father's house…

Genesis 35:7: "…because there God (Elohim) appeared unto him…" [Literally: They appeared unto him.]

2 Samuel 7:23: "…God (Elohim) went…" [Literally: They went.]

Psalm 58:12: "Surely He is God (Elohim) who judges…[Literally: They judge.]

Obiwan:
In fact, as you should know, the Dead Sea scrolls version of Deuteronomy 32:43 and 32:8-9 also mention other gods which are directed to worship

Here's a link that provides evidence that Deut. 32:8 does not suggest plurality: http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/Ted_Hil ... t32-BS.htm. I'll view it at another time and compare your viewpoints to this link's take on it.

However, I think it's interesting how you're looking for non-monotheism in the bible. On one hand, you're defending the monotheism of Mormonism; on the other hand, you're trying to show how the Bible was not entirely monotheistic in the first place. Or am I wrong to think that you're defending monotheism?

(as a side note, I'm also confused about your take on the doctrine of deification in Mormonism. There's a lot of rhetoric I hear on the LDS side about becoming "like" God and what not, and on this thread I've read of "evolving" into a god vs. "becoming" one. All that rhetoric aside, you wrote this in a statement: "We become gods..." Is this your belief?)

Openminded THANK YOU SO VERY MUCH FOR THAT LINK !!! , IT IS AWESOME/GREAT and it supports the LDS POSITION [Praise JESUS !]. My Brother In CHRIST JESUS DAVID went to the site and read it to me and is going to bookmark it for future discussions with LDS critics. It is important for us to read scripture through the eyes/heart/mind of the anchient semetics from the middle east [Prophets/Apostles] and not use greek neo- platonic - gnostic- hellenistic ways of interpeting scripture. Thanks for your help in supporting/verifying my Faith. I must go now, May True Grace Be With You.

In His Debt/Grace
OBIWAN
LDS JEDI KNIGHT

Also worthy to note:

Obiwan:
...other gods which are directed to worship, and that the nations were numbered "according to the number of the son's of God"

Directed to worship or directed to be worshiped? I'm guessing just to worship, but I'm not sure what you mean. Either way, I've researched this "sons of God" concept. Here are my findings:

One school of thought has an interesting take on the "sons of God" concept. The following corroboration was made in my Oxford Annotated Bible:

Deut. 32: 8 - "The sons of God, the divine beings who belong to the heavenly court (see Gen. 1:26). To these heavenly beings the Lord delegated authority to govern other nations, but he chose Israel for himself." (this is the closest reference to what might lead to a worship of other gods, however, there is no mention that the heavenly beings were gods, save Psalms 82. Psalms 89:5-7 is another reference to this "Near East conception" that the world is ruled by a council of gods, and shows Elohim as the most High.)

Gen. 1:26 - The plural us, our probably refers to the divine beings who compose God's heavenly court.

These passages are mentioned as reference:
1 Kings 22:19 and Job 1:6.

Take a look at the most interesting development in these passages: Satan.
As noted by the commentary in this bible on 1 Kings 22:19-23,

"The lying spirit, here still under the control of the Lord, later developed into the figure of Satan (Zech. 3:1, Job chs. 1-2)."

Satan was among the sons of God, as seen in Job 1:6. Also, in Zechariah 3:1, he is still not the incarnation of evil, but a "functionary of the heavenly court who accuses man of doing wrong."

Finally, in 1 Chronicles 21:1, Satan is the devil we know of today. The commentary annotates:

Satan replaces "the anger of the Lord" of 2 Sam. 24:1. During the more than 500 years since the writing of the earlier account, a considerable theological change had taken place. In the thinking of biblical men, God came to be considered as only doing good; and the figure of Satan (the word means "adversary") was developed to account for evil and misfortune (compare Rev. 12:9).

I mention this because nearly every discussion I've seen concerning the trinity (which leads to becoming gods, which leads to biblical evidence for becoming gods) leads to the heavenly council eventually.

On the side, it's interesting to note how the Satan in 1 Kings 22:21-23, Job 1:6, and Zechariah 3:1 compare to the LDS pre-mortal view of Satan, who was cast out of heaven before life existed on Earth.

It is important for us to read scripture through the eyes/heat/mind of the anchient semetics from the middle east [Prophets/Apostles] and not use greek neo- platonic - gnostic- hellenistic ways of interpeting scripture.

It is also important not to view them through LDS eyes as well. The polytheism of Joseph Smith was brought about by his misreadings of the Hebrew word "Elohim," leading him to believe that Gen. 1:1 supports polytheism. See http://vintage.aomin.org/jsmith.html#_ftnref35 for more information on this. In summary, Smith felt as though Elohim should always be translated as "Gods".

This man founded your religion and evolved into a polytheist based on mistranslating the bible.
From what I've read, he's based more than a few doctrines off of his interpretation of the bible.

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Obiwan, Answer the questions posed to you...
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openminded wrote:

It is important for us to read scripture through the eyes/heat/mind of the anchient semetics from the middle east [Prophets/Apostles] and not use greek neo- platonic - gnostic- hellenistic ways of interpeting scripture.

It is also important not to view them through LDS eyes as well. The polytheism of Joseph Smith was brought about by his misreadings of the Hebrew word "Elohim," leading him to believe that Gen. 1:1 supports polytheism. See http://vintage.aomin.org/jsmith.html#_ftnref35 for more information on this. In summary, Smith felt as though Elohim should always be translated as "Gods".

This man founded your religion and evolved into a polytheist based on mistranslating the bible.
From what I've read, he's based more than a few doctrines off of his interpretation of the bible.

You see but you see not, you hear but hear not. The Jews and Muslims know that after all of the western trinitarian talk that you are polythiest and are in SDS mode.

In His Debt/Grace
Obiwan
LDS JEDI KNIGHT

B. W. wrote:+

Obiwan, Answer the questions posed to you...
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I am a Anchient/Monarch/Eastern/Economic/Social/Godheadian/Trinitarian.

In His Debt/Grace
Obiwan
LDS JEDI KNIGHT

Obiwan wrote:

B. W. wrote:+Obiwan, Answer the questions posed to you...

I am a Anchient/Monarch/Eastern/Economic/Social/Godheadian/Trinitarian. In His Debt/Grace Obiwan LDS JEDI KNIGHT

Again... Obiwan this does not answer the questions posed and your answer shows and proves nothing...What are you afriad of?

Exodus 20:3, 4, 5 states states: "You shall have no other gods before Me. 4 "You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;:5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me.." NKJV

Mormonism makes god's of people — progress toward this end. This is violation of the first two commandments.

Therefore the question still stands — Is Mormonism in violation of the first two commandments?

Answer this, yes or no. If No then explain your line of reasoning in light of…

Isaiah 43:10, "You are My witnesses," says the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me..." NKJV

Mormon tendency is to skirt around this issue by claiming that only the BIG GOD or Only the Big kahuna God is the one they worshiped and that having other gods before you refers to not to making yourself the big kahana God but it is okay to make yourself a lesser god instead. However Bible refutes this as Isaiah 43:10 states -- that before God was NO GOD FORMED nor shall there be after....

This includes you and all Mormons. The language is pretty plain and straight forward, isn't it?

Your doctrine stands in clear violation of the first two commandments.

So does Mormonism twisting of the words Elohim and haElohim, and any further discussion on this would be pointless unless you answer the questions and stop fishing for information to use to buttress your use of twisting of scripture against Christians for your missionaries to use.

Now onward back to questions:

Next, if you say Mormons only worship the BIG GOD — then why do Mormon's worship Jesus in their songs? If you are not to allow worship lesser gods — why do you do so with Jesus? If you do worship lesser gods, then would not that be in violation of your own doctrine?

If Jesus was spouting Mormon doctrine, why did he allow himself to be worshiped? Wouldn't that be an affront to the BIG GOD — the only ONE a person is to worship?

NOW:

The Orthodox Christian Doctrine of the Trinity does not violate the first two commandments as well as leaves biblical principles expounded upon in Isaiah 43:10, Exodus 34:14, 2 Samuel 7:22, Jeremiah 10:6, Isaiah 46:9, Isaiah 45:5 intact with utterly no discrepancy as well explain the use of haElohim and paired pronouns when God refers to himself as used in the text of the bible.

Think about it — God said — “before God was NO GOD FORMED nor shall there be after...”

How can there be multiple gods if there are truly none others as God himself so says?

Again why does Mormon doctrine stand in complete defiance of the first two commandments?

Why does Mormon doctrine seek legitimacy to the serpents' words recorded in Genesis 3:5? If it is not a crime to become god if this is God's intent - then why was Adam and Eve expelled from the Garden? Why do Mormons seek to become like God in full compliance with the devil's own words?

Now if you say to be only be “like God,” means there will always be an important difference ontologically because there are lesser gods and there is the ONLY one True BIG God therefore is the BIG GOD ontologically dissimilar with the gods who preceded him since he progressed?

“Latter-day Saints believe in this progression in eternity until, eventually, we become worthy through knowledge, wisdom, humility, and obedience, to be like God, and then to have the privilege of being made equal in power, might and dominion (D&C. 76:95), and to possess all that the Father hath (D&C. 84:38) as members of 'the Church of the First-born'” (The Way to Perfection, p.9).

How can that be true in light of Isaiah 43:10?

Why don't you tackle theses questions instead of trying to wag the dog here? Trying to bait me into a discussion going into a different direction will do you or your friend's no good. When you answer these questions — then we can continue….

Answer the questions…posed here...

Does Mormon doctrine violate the first two commandments?
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-
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No it does not, I will not worship any GOD but GOD THE FATHER/HIS SON JESUS CHRIST by way of GOD THE HOLY GHOST. The anchient semetic understanding of Isaiah 43:10 [The Pre-mortal Jesus Christ ] that none will be in his authority position before him or after him. Interesting that JHVH [the pre-mortal Jesus] uses the time phrases "Before"and "After" which some take as in relation there was a period "Before" JHVH and there will be an "After" Jehovah. Your unchristlike phraseology is unbecomming of one who I presume accepts Jesus Christ as master yet you use BIff Tannon phrases in your correspondance to me shame, shame, on you. Is this how you interact with all that are not evangelical right wing christians ?, pray tell this is an embarresment, I forgive your polemical dialectic, but I would have 2nd thoughts before hanging out with you. I am not sure if this corresponance if fruitful. Have a blessed day.

In His Debt/Grace
Obiwan
LDS JEDI KNIGHT

Obiwan wrote:No it does not, I will not worship any GOD but GOD THE FATHER/HIS SON JESUS CHRIST by way of GOD THE HOLY GHOST. The anchient semetic understanding of Isaiah 43:10 [The Pre-mortal Jesus Christ ] that none will be in his authority position before him or after him. Interesting that JHVH [the pre-mortal Jesus] uses the time phrases "Before"and "After" which some take as in relation there was a period "Before" JHVH and there will be an "After" Jehovah. Your unchristlike phraseology is unbecomming of one who I presume accepts Jesus Christ as master yet you use BIff Tannon phrases in your correspondance to me shame, shame on you. Is this how you interact with all that are not evangelical right wing christians ?, pray tell this is an embarresment, I forgive your polemical dialectic, but I would have 2nd thoughts before hanging out with you. I am not sure if this corresponance if fruitful. Have a blessed day. In His Debt/Grace Obiwan LDS JEDI KNIGHT

Please Don't be so touchey -

Answer the questions - what are you afriad of?

Yes - or No and then state your case. That is all I am asking...

I also do not know nor have I ever heard of Biff Tannon so practice what you preach and stop being judgmental against myself and others on this Forum regarding the Trinity doctrine and take the mote out your own eye. You have just broken another commandment, easy isn't it? We here at the Forum afford you a place to state your case, if you cannot defend it, define it, or debate it, then why are you here?

Plese answer the questions:

Does Mormon doctrine violate the first two commandments?

God said — “before God was NO GOD FORMED nor shall there be after...”

How can there be multiple gods if there are truly none others as God himself so says?

Why does Mormon doctrine seek legitimacy to the serpents' words recorded in Genesis 3:5?

If it is not a crime to become god if this is truly Big God's real intent for his spirit children - then why was Adam and Eve expelled from the Garden?

Why do Mormons seek to become like God in full compliance with the devil's own words used in Genesis 3:5?

1. D&C 132: 17, 19-20, D&C 132:17-20
17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are aangels of God forever and ever.

19 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb's book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fullness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever
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20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.

D&C 76:95 quote below

95 And he makes them equal in power, and in might, and in dominion.

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Touchy ?, pray tell, I am not afraid I am only speaking what I see, no judgement, only Christ Jesus Judges. [I Am really surprised you have never heard of Biff Tannon ! ]. I have already told you my position in my last post . Now Where in Gen 3:5 does it state that satan is offering full godhood to Adam and Eve ?, satan made 2 statements - #1 A lie -that they would not die, #2 - A truth -They would be "as gods knowing good from evil", see vrs 22 where the LORD states Behold the man "HAS BECOME AS ONE OF US TO KNOW GOOD AND EVIL". I have tried to be Christlike in my responses but I see it does not work. Just as the book by Mark Knoll presents in it's title 'The Scandle of The Evangelical Mind", I can see it first hand again. However in my many years of conversations/meetings with those Protestant Evangelicals many would put you to shame by there awesome Christlike interaction with me. Thank you again for reminding me why I am no longer a right wing Evangelical. There is no mote, only Love my evangelical friend . Have a Blessed evening.

In His Debt/Grace
Obiwan
LDS JEDI KNIGHT

Obiwan wrote:Touchy ?, pray tell, I am not afraid I am only speaking what I see, no judgement, only Christ Jesus Judges. [I Am really surprised you have never heard of Biff Tannon ! ]. I have already told you my position in my last post . Now Where in Gen 3:5 does it state that satan is offering full godhood to Adam and Eve ?, satan made 2 statements - #1 A lie -that they would not die, #2 - A truth -They would be "as gods knowing good from evil", see vrs 22 where the LORD states Behold the man "HAS BECOME AS ONE OF US TO KNOW GOOD AND EVIL". I have tried to be Christlike in my responses but I see it does not work. Just as the book by Mark Knoll presents in it's title 'The Scandle of The Evangelical Mind", I can see it first hand again. However in my many years of conversations/meetings with those Protestant Evangelicals many would put you to shame by there awesome Christlike interaction with me. Thank you again for reminding me why I am no longer a right wing Evangelical. There is no mote, only Love my evangelical friend . Have a Blessed evening.

Well you sure are trying to twist the word of God into your own thinking Obi.. You have made it very clear that you are seeking to be a god... Even from the Bible!!!

And here is more proof from the LDS website..

"To pinpoint a destination not previously visited we usually consult a map. … The Lord Jesus Christ, our Redeemer and Savior, has given us our map—a code of laws and commandments whereby we might attain perfection and, eventually, godhood. This set of laws and ordinances is known as the gospel of Jesus Christ, and it is the only plan which will exalt mankind. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the sole repository of this priceless program in its fulness, which is made available to those who accept it.

In order to reach the goal of eternal life and exaltation and godhood, one must be initiated into the kingdom by baptism, properly performed; one must receive the Holy Ghost by the laying on of authoritative hands; a man must be ordained to the priesthood by authorized priesthood holders; one must be endowed and sealed in the house of God by the prophet who holds the keys or by one of those to whom the keys have been delegated; and one must live a life of righteousness, cleanliness, purity and service. None can enter into eternal life other than by the correct door—Jesus Christ and his commandments.

But for those Latter-day Saints who are valiant, who fulfill the requirements faithfully and fully, the promises are glorious beyond description:
“Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.” (D&C 132:20.)26

Source: http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?h ... 82620aRCRD

Did you get that last part by Kimball? Then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.

B.W. is right...

You can't work for it, nor become a god nor have ALL POWERS Obi... Sorry...

Or this one.. "Man is a god in embryo and has in him the seeds of godhood, and he can, if he will, rise to great heights.”

Source: //www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav= ... 82620aRCRD

The truth is finally revealed... This is what TRUE Mormonism teaches..

If you water your seed, you too can become a god...

Obi... I'd be very very careful about these teachings by the Mormons.... To see that you would gravitate to them also tells us a lot about you.. You might not like the outcome in the end. Be VERY VERY careful my friend.