Evidence for God from Science

Sudsy wrote:Well, I'm back from a short but nice trip and I see much continues to be said to support the interpretation of endless torment. Since it seems to be an area that some of you feel very strongly that it needs to be defended and might be a stumblingblock to seekers, I will not debate this further. Not that I couldn't, as there are some big holes in both your reasonings and use of scriptures but be that as it may, I don't see the point to continue. And by the way, not always faithful, but I have been a believer for 57 years.

I stick with what I originally argued that you can't believe in never ending torment for the unsaved and love your neighbour as yourself unless you would be pleading constantly with everyone to come to Christ. You don't seem to follow this argument and take it as an insult, so I can't deal with that kind of logic.

But I don't want to be a 'thorn in the flesh' either as a participant on this forum so I'll try another thread or two and will try to stay away from this topic.

However, what I will offer for those who wish to study the alternative annihilation view, many of the arguments I relate to are found in this link - http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/boo ... tion/6.htm

Pray that you enjoyed your time on vacation!

Here is a book I suggest - if you are interested: "Hell Under Fire" - publisher Zondervan, Morgan and Peterson editors... to provide balance to your link. It is an honest book and addresses all the annihilationist's points...

Also Sudsy, I do not like to make a scene but there are Near Death Experiences that counter your views as well - mine being one. When you enter eternity many truths will be revealed, so many in fact, that if the Lord allowed you to return back to your mortal state, you would not be able to express them due to human language limits of being to monochromatic in depiction.

What is more – in closing: We can disagree on eternal punishment’s duration. A person will not lose their salvation over it if they disagree. The central message is to be set free from sin and the treason it leads one too. This being set free comes by God's grace - Jesus Christ...amen

Sudsy -are you set free? Are you truly born again?

All sin leads to tempting and testing God no matter how mundane or small we term and justify it to be. In Hell, the nature of sin, treason, is fully uncovered in a person, exposing them all before all so that anyone looking at them sees how treasonous they ‘really’ become to a Holy just, perfect, loving God…seeking to cause God to act contrary to who he is so nihilism’s rot reigns.

I know full well you will disagree with me and call me names but remember, I do not call you names and will not. I just know, for a fact, that after your mortal body dies, you will awake into the ultimate reality and understand things more fully than I can ever try to explain. You’ll learn truth. You’ll understand the need for a place like eternal hell: A land unknown, best forgotten, but not left unseen…
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About what I have said in this thread.

There is no doubt that everyone should be made aware of hell as Jesus described it. However, I would not, under any circumstance (unless lead by God) drop the hell bomb on a truly fresh, biblically ignorant, true blue unsaved person.

Love is absolutely the first and best course of action to use and Jesus was clear on that. So I am not recommending that anyone push the message contained in this thread or any thread concerning hell onto a real unsaved person. Give them a chance to learn about God, his love and his message (good news) before you tell them (out of love, if they are stubborn) that they are going to roast for all eternity if they don’t stop playing games.

I would not have posted on hell in a thread where the unsaved seek God. The post in this thread is for those who know the word and use their knowledge to make God’s acts appear unjust (for whatever reason). They hurt themselves as well as others.

But….no blowing up the truly unsaved or young in Christ with the hell bomb, seek God for guidance.

J.Davis wrote:About what I have said in this thread.

There is no doubt that everyone should be made aware of hell as Jesus described it. However, I would not, under any circumstance (unless lead by God) drop the hell bomb on a truly fresh, biblically ignorant, true blue unsaved person.

Love is absolutely the first and best course of action to use and Jesus was clear on that. So I am not recommending that anyone push the message contained in this thread or any thread concerning hell onto a real unsaved person. Give them a chance to learn about God, his love and his message (good news) before you tell them (out of love, if they are stubborn) that they are going to roast for all eternity if they don’t stop playing games.

I would not have posted on hell in a thread where the unsaved seek God. The post in this thread is for those who know the word and use their knowledge to make God’s acts appear unjust (for whatever reason). They hurt themselves as well as others.

But….no blowing up the truly unsaved or young in Christ with the hell bomb, seek God for guidance.

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Sudsy -are you set free? Are you truly born again?

Are you questioning my salvation because I have a different view than yours on never ending torment ? I find that a strange question to pop up in this thread.

Regarding NDEs there are quite a variety of experiences both good and bad for both the saved and unsaved so I don't put any trust in experiences such as this. I have read hundreds of these experiences out of curiousity.

I know full well you will disagree with me and call me names but remember, I do not call you names and will not.

See this is the type of statement that makes it hard to discuss things with you. Where did I call you a name ? You state you know 'full well' that I did, so where so I can apologize ?

I do agree with you that we will not understand everything perfectly in this life. However, on the other hand, you state your beliefs in never ending torment as facts, the truth, from the scriptures. Perhaps this is one area you do not see perfectly. Perhaps someday the truth about this will be revealed to you whatever that entire truth is. I don't regard this as a necessary belief for salvation and the Gospel is the main area I will defend to maintain it's original truth.

Anyway, if I haven't made it clear yet, I am born again and lead to the Lord by my father through the Romans chain of scriptures. I have been active in churches as deacon, song leader, Bible teacher, evangelist leader, etc, etc, and I also left church for many years due to the bickering and divisions that Christians too often engage in. God drew me back a few years ago and I now am actively involved again. I am continuing to learn and grow but I do look closer at traditional views and their scriptural support.

When it comes to topics such as eternal torment, last things, the beginning, I don't get too dogmatic and I push back at times on those who are. It concerns me most when scriptures are taken out of context to provide support for some theories so I don't bite on scriptures just plucked here and there that appear to be supporting something. Anyway, we likely both think the other is interpreting certain scriptures incorrectly.

I could also recommend some books on Hell for you to consider but I think you are pretty convinced you have the correct view already.

One other thought to consider - be careful about how dogmatic you become with your understandings of God and what He must do because of your understandings of Him. If you agree we see things imperfectly, this may also include our understandings of God. When it comes to trying to comprehend the extent of God's mercy, love, justice, grace, etc., and exactly how He must act accordingly, I think we must be careful. God is not limited in any way by our undertandings of Him. We can rest and be set free from anxieties about who He is and what He will do as we put our trust fully in Him.

Let me add to what JDavis stated above sudsy's post...

Preaching on hell alone without explaining what sin is like going barefoot over broken glass. That is why it is important to understand that Sin is treason against God and convey it when teaching others, even new believers concerning hell. It is important to help people understand what sin is when sharing to others about the reality of an eternal hell. The two go together. Problems arise when a person just focuses on Hell and not sin as treason.

Sin reveals a person's character. If lying all the time is viewed as less than stealing millions of dollars or committing murder, it is not viewed as treason against God's order. Sin is treason by tempting God to act contrary to himself in order to disprove, discredit God, or cause God to act contrary to himself in dealing with it. That is why it is treason.

We have gone over this, how sin tries to get God to go contrary to his own nature in this thread and elsewhere enough times so I will not repeat it again in length here. Little sins always lead to bigger sins. We are enslaved to sin. Humanity has no choice in this matter until Jesus Christ came granting us freedom from sin that we can honestly walk in.

Our sins, no matter how little we deem them, all challenge God to act contrary to himself. God himself promises that he will never deny himself, never Go against his own promises, gifts, callings, plans, etc. Little sins do just that; tempt God to against his own ways. That is why each sin is treason against God.

The little sin of stealing a dollar box of paper clips from the Walgreens store is no different than Madoff stealing millions. Why, Sin reveals character. The little theft is justified as much as the big theft is. If the little thief is allowed into heaven – he will steal little chips of gold there as well too, misusing God’s love and mercy as license to do this act. Isaiah 26:10 is true…

Not understanding the nature and true character of God revealed within the bible aids misunderstanding about sin too. How sin tempts God and seeks to goad God lead to misunderstanding as well too.

When teaching on Hell, you must reveal sin’s true nature as treason. Failure to do so serves to promote bad doctrine. Bad doctrine such as Universalism and Annihilationism do indeed tempt God by limiting the effects of sin –making sin – no real account to God, both teach an escape from the fruits of sin; therefore, what a person sows they will not reap. Think about it in context with what God states about this matter…

That is all I can do is present the facts, measured, rightly divided with God's Word, with God's own ways, nature, and Character. Annihilationism does not do this.

Maybe Sudsy, God is trying to reveal something to you further than what you think. All I can do is ask for you to take the time to measure your doctrine against whom and what God says about himself found in the bible. What you are saying is demanding that I agree with you. I cannot due solely on the word of God, I cannot. When you die, you will not soul sleep, but be awakened and come into understanding how you strayed from the living God and what he saved you from – eternal wrath.

Believing in an eternal Hell or not will not save person from where sin is leading a person. Only Christ can do that. That is why it is important when teaching on Hell to share on Christ and what He did to set us free from sin and the rot it brings.

When teaching on Hell, share what sin is and does, Share how Christ sets us free from sin so people can escape the wrath to come… and many will become born again. Leave any part out – the message will not be as effective. These provide balance…

Now In response to Sudsy's comment below quoted,

Sudsy wrote:

Sudsy -are you set free? Are you truly born again?

Are you questioning my salvation because I have a different view than yours on never ending torment ? I find that a strange question to pop up in this thread.

Answer - No - Just making sure you are trusting in Christ for your salvation and nothing else, only you can answer this. Since you sound like you do, then, I’ll go that you are a believer in Christ and that is that.

I do ask this a lot to believers in Christ – just to make sure that they know that they are sure… That is all .. no ill will intended…
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Bad doctrine such as Universalism and Annihilationism do indeed tempt God by limiting the effects of sin –making sin – no real account to God, both teach an escape from the fruits of sin; therefore, what a person sows they will not reap. Think about it in context with God states about this matter…

Here again you are presenting a certain view of Annihilationism. 'Some annihilationists believe the wicked will be punished for their sins in the lake of fire before being annihilated' as stated here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annihilationism

If you are referring to those who believe there is no such thing as hell or any punishment for sin, then I think you should be more specific to be fair.

But if you are saying that a lack of belief in never ending torment is not understanding the nature and character of God, then I think you have stepped over into opinion rather than fact. Can anyone honestly say that they fully understand the nature and character of God and therefore how He will act accordingly ?

Sudsy wrote:...But if you are saying that a lack of belief in never ending torment is not understanding the nature and character of God, then I think you have stepped over into opinion rather than fact. Can anyone honestly say that they fully understand the nature and character of God and therefore how He will act accordingly ?

What does these principles inthe bible say...

Amos 5:4 For thus says the LORD to the house of Israel: "Seek Me and live;

Isa 26:9 With my soul I have desired You in the night, Yes, by my spirit within me I will seek You early; For when Your judgments are in the earth, The inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

Isa 45:18, 19 For thus says the LORD, Who created the heavens, Who is God, Who formed the earth and made it, Who has established it, Who did not create it in vain, Who formed it to be inhabited: "I am the LORD, and there is no other. 19 I have not spoken in secret, In a dark place of the earth; I did not say to the seed of Jacob, 'Seek Me in vain'; I, the LORD, speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.

Romans 10:20 But Isaiah is very bold and says: "I WAS FOUND BY THOSE WHO DID NOT SEEK ME; I WAS MADE MANIFEST TO THOSE WHO DID NOT ASK FOR ME."

Isa 51:1 "Listen to Me, you who follow after righteousness, You who seek the LORD: Look to the rock from which you were hewn, And to the hole of the pit from which you were dug.

Jer 29:12. 13, 14 - Then you will call upon Me and go and pray to Me, and I will listen to you. 13 And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart. 14 I will be found by you, says the LORD, and I will bring you back from your captivity; I will gather you from all the nations and from all the places where I have driven you, says the LORD, and I will bring you to the place from which I cause you to be carried away captive.

Isa 1:18-19 "Come now, and let us reason together," Says the LORD, "Though your sins are like ..."

How else is there to seek God other than in the truth of the bible and why does God want his people to seek after him and his ways and make them known by declaring his name (Character) if He cann't be found or unwilling to to reveal himself? We gain glimpses of his glory and these are revealed connecting the dots. line upon line, percept upon precept...
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I believe God does want us to seek to know Him but I also believe that He will only reveal to us what we need to know and this may be far different from what we might want to know. Obviously, Calvinists, Armenians and those in between are seeking to know and understand how far God acts sovereignly and how much free will man has but in all their seeking, who is correct ? The very nature of God and how He acts is sought and considered in these doctrines. They can't all be true or perhaps they all are but just cannot reconcile these truths.

I believe if everything about God was just obvious, we probably would quit seeking to know Him. The old 'been there done that' attitude. I think denominations partly arose from those who thought they knew God better than others.

Sudsy wrote:I believe God does want us to seek to know Him but I also believe that He will only reveal to us what we need to know and this may be far different from what we might want to know. Obviously, Calvinists, Armenians and those in between are seeking to know and understand how far God acts sovereignly and how much free will man has but in all their seeking, who is correct? The very nature of God and how He acts is sought and considered in these doctrines. They can't all be true or perhaps they all are but just cannot reconcile these truths.

I believe if everything about God was just obvious, we probably would quit seeking to know Him. The old 'been there done that' attitude. I think denominations partly arose from those who thought they knew God better than others.

How do you tell if all true or some? How was stated earlier in this thread:

...A person needs to take their time to compare and try to justify doctrine and see if any goes against these stated principles about God. If so, it has to go. This will lead to more questions, gain more insight, find more answers not anticipated, during this time you can throw out the bad and comprehend the good. This will take time and often much wrestling with God is involved. Through this a person develops a deeper living loving relationship with God and gaze in awe concerning the mysteries of Himself that He slowly reveals…

If Calvinists, Armenians, EO, RC, all denominations did this, much would be required to give up and then people would find a peace that surpasses knowledge pervading and deeper personal relationship with God profound develop. A person will eat a lot of crow as southern proverb says doing this endeavor and much wrestling with God will happen so they can understand the answers from him about himself become clear – clearing the air...

God reveals if we but ask and seek and knock… What is true about God will not violate who he is nor cause him deny himself (his name) – in this you uncover truth about doctrine and cheerfully toss out the bad, through Truth: truth about the Lord… Comparing spiritual matters as 1 Corinthians 2:13 gave clue too. The spiritual is God himself who is Spirit, who abides in truth that is substantiated upon who he is as he reveals himself within the bible…

For example, many (not all) Calvinists and Armenians both acknowledge the importance of God’s Call but proceed no further exploring that the intent of God’s Call produces choice in the hearer. God calls to all as this proves His justice true despite foreknowing who rejects, he still calls to all. God is not a slave to free will because human freewill would never accept God on one’s own, a Word (John 1:1), His call is given with the intent to test the heart by providing a choice when before there was none.

God knowing all things knows who will reject, and will do with the rejecters as he so wills – hardening them further in their own sin to make spectacle out of them and those He knows that hears – he will soften, change, and have mercy on. His call produces a choice. God knowing the result of his own initiative to Call and From this God assigns people in times, eras, places, in groups, countries, communities in time periods best suited for them.

He knows how a wicked man's future progeny, generations and generations later will hear and hearken positively to His call and for that, that wicked person is allowed to live. Such knowledge as this, King David wrote about, is too much for the human mind to fully comprehend. We gain a glimpse and marvel. In eternity, we will understand things like this better.

His call is not Forceful as that would violate His nature of being just himself first and to All second. The intent of His on initiative to call is to produce choice when before there was none. Foreknowing the results his call will have and its effect upon all before any ever were is not explored in both Calvinist and Armenian camps by comparing what they teach against God’s own character and nature. To do so, entails, eating a lot of crow...

There is more on this subject than I can go into details here but enough to whet one's appetite to explore the mysteries of God further... by the Holy Spirit of course…comparing… For now that is enough to begin someone’s search…
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Now we see things imperfectly as in a cloudy mirror, but then we will see everything with perfect clarity. All that I know now is partial and incomplete, but then I will know everything completely, just as God now knows me completely.

1 Corinthians 13:12

Hi Sudsy! I see the parties still going.

Sudsy wrote:It concerns me most when scriptures are taken out of context to provide support for some theories so I don't bite on scriptures just plucked here and there that appear to be supporting something.

But you have neither shown us what the scriptures we offer truly mean (from your perspective) or offered any scriptures to support your argument and shown how they fit in with our scriptures.

As Christians who believes in the bible, the word of God, we should do our best not to accept or teach anything that contradicts with the word of Jesus.

Sudsy, I understand your concern, hell as the bible describes it sounds bad, I get it. If my family and friends die unsaved than they are going to roast for all eternity! People I love.....God will allow this seemingly awful terrible thing…I get it..

But I trust him and love him regardless of that fact. He has proven to me over and over (keep saying over) again that he knows best and is always right. Humanity, from the beginning did not trust God or love him enough to take him at his word and do as he said. God said not to eat the fruit in the garden of Eden but Adam and Eve chose to believe that God’s word was not true and bit into Satan’s lies. God said the fruit would lead to death (no he did not say what day, it’s like saying, on the day you’re born, you will surely age). Because of what Adam and Eve wanted in their hearts (to be like God) they choose to believe that the fruit would lead to God like characteristics, the knowledge of good and evil. But it was all a lie, the fruit didn’t do anything, they bit it and suddenly they knew.....Disobeying God gave them the knowledge of good and evil. What God said to do was good, what he said not to do was evil.

Same with hell...Jesus said that the unsaved will be tormented in fire for all eternity if they die unsaved. Are you going to trust him and accept what he said, trusting that he has good reason or just believe what you want about the matter. Many people misunderstand God and his love, so they will feel that being free of what they believe are the overbearing chains of Christianity so they can live the life they want on earth is worth suffering a bit of torment in (your version of) the lake of fire and then dying and having peace. But what if I am right Sudsy, what if they are biting into a lie. Then they will face the consequence and effect of their decision forever because they believed a lie. If I am wrong and they say that God is evil to burn people in hell so I hate him. When they meet God they will not have been deceived, it was their choice. Or maybe one day they will consider my words as God works on their heart, they may say, the pain I have felt on this earth is bad...I don’t always want pain in my life, if God is real and can free me from this pain- I’ll take a closer look. As life goes on God won’t give up on them, never, not until they breath their last breath.

But your way gives them an alternative, freedom from pain, they just have to wait it out ,it will come soon. You trap them and they have no way out. Should they believe you and desire sin without God to help them be free of that sin, then they burn forever, because they believed you. And you maybe saved but God will still be upset when you see him, as he will be for many things we have all done, but you don’t want to be responsible for someone believing in something because you made it so convincing that Gods truth seemed like more of a lie..

It’s bad fruit Sudsy and I tell you this out of love. There is no way that your belief is biblical. Your way offers hell and freedom from hell. God’s way offers hell and freedom from hell. But his way his perfect and your way is a lie. Trust God Sudsy...if he can help it, no one will burn unless they really want to (they feel pain in their heart but bury it with lies because they want sin).

Hell creates many feelings, such as yours...so you have the opportunity to trust him. And many feeling for the unsaved.

God knows best, just say what he said if someone ask you about hell.

But you have neither shown us what the scriptures we offer truly mean (from your perspective) or offered any scriptures to support your argument and shown how they fit in with our scriptures.

No, I pointed out a link to a site that does this for me which I wonder if you have looked at closely as a certain view of annihilation as supported by scriptures. My guess is that your mind is made up with your interpretation of scriptures on this topic. Or perhaps because this writer was a Seventh Day Adventist, his views don't count. Yes/No ?

Just as Paul, Peter and James and many others reveal to us in scripture and as we read in Acts how they did evangelism, there is no mention of never ending torment. The good news does not require any concept of never ending torment to be good news. I think they set a good example for us on how we should spread the Gospel. It is all about God's love and not about scaring the hell out of people, so to speak.

God will still be upset when you see him

Or He may be upset with you for presenting Him and His character in such a way.

My belief in whether one is saved or not is not about how they believe in the nature of hell but what they believe about Christ. That is the issue one needs to face. As Paul says we preach Christ and Him crucified. He didn't say we preach never ending torment but rather Christ. This is good enough for me and this is how I was saved and have lead others to a saving knowledge of the Saviour.

God knows best, just say what he said if someone ask you about hell.

One verse, interpreted in a certain way, does not say it all. If someone asks me about hell, I would say that I don't know for sure about the exact nature of hell other than it is not a place where one would want to go. Don't you find it interesting that there is no recording in Acts of this question being asked ? I do.

Sudsy wrote:

But you have neither shown us what the scriptures we offer truly mean (from your perspective) or offered any scriptures to support your argument and shown how they fit in with our scriptures.

No, I pointed out a link to a site that does this for me which I wonder if you have looked at closely as a certain view of annihilation as supported by scriptures. My guess is that your mind is made up with your interpretation of scriptures on this topic. Or perhaps because this writer was a Seventh Day Adventist, his views don't count. Yes/No ?

Just as Paul, Peter and James and many others reveal to us in scripture and as we read in Acts how they did evangelism, there is no mention of never ending torment. The good news does not require any concept of never ending torment to be good news. I think they set a good example for us on how we should spread the Gospel. It is all about God's love and not about scaring the hell out of people, so to speak.

God will still be upset when you see him

Or He may be upset with you for presenting Him and His character in such a way.

My belief in whether one is saved or not is not about how they believe in the nature of hell but what they believe about Christ. That is the issue one needs to face. As Paul says we preach Christ and Him crucified. He didn't say we preach never ending torment but rather Christ. This is good enough for me and this is how I was saved and have lead others to a saving knowledge of the Saviour.

God knows best, just say what he said if someone ask you about hell.

One verse, interpreted in a certain way, does not say it all. If someone asks me about hell, I would say that I don't know for sure about the exact nature of hell other than it is not a place where one would want to go. Don't you find it interesting that there is no recording in Acts of this question being asked ? I do.

Sudsy,

The writers of the New Testament did mention the realities of Hell in their own unique ways. Book of Acts describes hell as a place Christ went too, preaching a message there as well as the final days of wrath in Acts 2:20, 27 NKJV, ESB, KJV, YLT….

The writers referred to the Old Testament imagery mentioned in in Deuteronomy 32:22 as God’s anger/wrath burning to the lowest parts of Sheol/Hell or as God’s wrath and future judgment mentioned in the books of the Prophets.

This wrath burns in Hell... for example, Paul use of wrath, etc, lays stress on future punishment, or escaping God’s wrath, and God’s wrath as resting upon the wicked Romans 1:18-32, Romans 2:5-8, Romans 3:5,. Paul connects future punishment with God’s judgment Romans 2:1-12, Romans 3:7-, Romans 6:23. 2 Thessalonians teaches directly on Hell – 2 Thess 1:5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 - 2 Thess 2:3, 8, 10, 12

In Hebrews the doctrine of future punishment is revealed as well (Heb 6:1, 2, 3) as a foundational teaching way back then. Hebrews 10:27, 28, 29, 30, 31 tell of this judgment as terrifying as a raging fire of God’s punishment judgment, and retribution just as the OT does.

James describes future punishment James 1:11 - James 4:12 note Matthew 10:28 – James 5:1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 20

Peter in 2 Peter 2:1-3, 12 -2 Peter 3:7, 9

Jude 1:5, 7, 10, 11, 15, 23

John writes in his own way in the book of Revelation…

Mark, Luke, Matthew record's Jesus' own words about Hell as being puishment of everlasting duration as well...

So do not claim they do not.

The problem arises in the meaning of words translated as death and destruction. Destruction means to be brought into a state of ruin – not non-existence. To state otherwise condemns Jesus own words in Matthew 25:46 to mean eternal life in God as not being eternal either. Non-being is not what is meant in by the word translated destruction, or death, or grave. If so, the dead could not cry out as the OT reveals, or be pained, travail, etc... What Jesus says about Hell would make no sense either...

In fact Revelation 22:15 would make no sense if the purpose of the lake of fire is to burn up into non-being, therefore, how can such people mentioned be outside the city if they non-exist by means of Lake of Fire, fires? Note also Revelation 21:8 as well as Revelation 21:27 - these passages would make no sense either since the lake of Fire is supposed to destroy into non-being.

How can eternal punishment be eternally punishing nothing? What sense does that make for an all wise God who has all wisdom to do?

How can eternal wrath be eternal if no object of wrath exists? Does not the bible declare that whatever God does concerning eternity in the heart, judgment, endures forever? How can it, when nothing exists?

This would also prove God partialness by extinguishing into non-being one group and not another, violating his own gift of life to them, making him violate justice by a form of cosmic murder into non-being. A Life sentence cures that and is just…

God can slay a mortal being in order to bring them to face his eternal wrath and judgment (bible teaches this). That is far different than zapping them into non-being. A Life sentence eternal keeps God from violating his own life giving nature, or the attributes of his Character. God will not deny himself etc an etc…

For Annihilationist doctrine to remain true to its interpretation of destruction and death as non-existence would mean that Jesus would have to be annihilated into non-being in order to correctly taste death for every person…

We have gone over these verses cited above before elsewhere on this forum. I hate repeating myself but if that is what it takes so be it.

The Denver Broncos were annihilated in today’s 10-10-2010 game. Does this mean the team ceases to exist or rather suffered a destructive loss? You see, we know how to use and understand the use of words.

So when the NT writers wrote of hell using OT imagery of God’s wrath and judgment that places one there in hell, understand what is being conveyed about God’s wrath burning to the lowest Hell…
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Sudsy wrote:No, I pointed out a link to a site that does this for me which I wonder if you have looked at closely as a certain view of annihilation as supported by scriptures. My guess is that your mind is made up with your interpretation of scriptures on this topic. Or perhaps because this writer was a Seventh Day Adventist, his views don't count. Yes/No ?.

The fact that they are Seventh Day Adventist does not bother me at all.

Yes, I read that seriously long and drawn out argument. It’s the most ridiculous thing I have ever read. It’s almost pure opinion, dismissing countless facts and completely butchering God’s word. It’s all driven by their own human ideas, fear and cowardly need to dodge responsibility and do as they see fit. They are completely blind to God’s love concerning hell and have little understanding of the heart…

They ignore the true word of God….but God’s way’s are above our ways. We have shown you a few scriptures that tell the future of the unsaved. With the link you gave, they have to write a whole book because once you start taking scriptures out of context other scriptures don’t work so you have to take them out of context as well. And they didn’t even have that many scriptures. They had to write all of that just for the small handful of scripture they did use….It’s ridiculous. They put way to much effort into lying to themselves. And now I see why they bad mouth Jesus and completely dismiss what he said concerning hell. No way around what he said…that’s why you keep ignoring me when I tell you what Jesus said and keep bringing up the disciples.

Jesus is God, no one else and the fact that the authors of your link had to put so much effort into confusing his words is ridiculous. Jesus may have talked about hell so much because he knew that people like the authors of that link would try to kill the truth and lead people to hell. Seriously, you guys play a dangerous game. By their logic (the authors of that link) one may only suffer the pain of hell for a few minutes. You can’t have the bible your way. Well, you can but it won’t change anything…

Sudsy wrote:Or He may be upset with you for presenting Him and His character in such a way.

Matthew 25:41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

Matthew 25:46 “These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

You know, some how I doubt that…lol. You are the one playing with words here. This is not a two way street. I use Jesus as the standard for what to say about hell and you do not. So, according to the bible, only you can be wrong.

Sudsy wrote:One verse, interpreted in a certain way, does not say it all.

Well, the thing is that, all the verses about hell work together and it means that you should stop telling people that they can get out of hell, misleading them and causing them to suffer for all eternity. No matter what, the best and safest thing to do is to say what Jesus said.

So do not claim they do not.

Sorry but the verses you use to say that the apostles wrote of never ending torment do not say anything about never ending torment. Nice try but no cigar. Try to stick to the topic, it is not about whether there is a hell or there will be wrath poured out, it is about never ending torment for finite sins. Just posting lots of verses on a much broader topic proves nothing.

Actually one verse you use regarding wrath Romans 2:5-8 speaks of a day of wrath. And I suppose this can be manipulated to not be a single day but somehow an infinite period of time, right ?

Many of the challengs you present are covered in the site I provided so I don't think repetition gets us anywhere other than a lot of text to read through.

Eternity being placed in the heart of man can mean that man, unlike animals, has an awareness buit-in of something beyond this life. This does not support an immortal being in my interpretation. Much is being read-into certain verses and called facts/truth. They are but opinions and interpretations just as others have made different ones.

IMO, God would be fully right and justified if He chose to reflect His reconciling of all things and victory over death and sin by eliminating the very existence of them. I don't know why that is difficult to understand as a possibility other than your belief that He can't and still be true to Himself in how you understand Him.

For Annihilationist doctrine to remain true to its interpretation of destruction and death as non-existence would mean that Jesus would have to be annihilated into non-being in order to correctly taste death for every person…

I'm not buying that argument either. Christ died for our sins. Period.

I see this thread is very upsetting to both of you and it seems that feelings are running pretty hot. Calling another opinion on this issue ridiculous when there are scriptures and very good logic to support another view is quite unnecessary but it seems wrath is already being unleashed but not by God. There are very well meaning, intellectual and scholarly Christians that have views different from yours.

I tried to get across the impact of such a belief in never ending torment from a point of view that this would be a very serious and well documented theme in NT writings and it would be obvious that a Christian would be one that used fear tactics to save people if they trully loved their neighbour as themselves but this reasoning obviously was not accepted. This concept to me is play acting (hypocrisy) to say one believes something but does not live accordingly. This is not a slam or insult but rather a logical connection to believing a truth and living out it's meaning.

I think I have offered enough for anyone to see that some of us do not buy into the idea that never ending torment was what Jesus was meaning in what He said and if it was, His followers would have acted accordingly. I do not expect to live in eternity with God and be looking down, so to speak, on my unsaved relatives and friends burning somewhere in endless torment and thinking they deserve just what they are getting. My understanding of God doesn't go there according to what I see in scripture about who God is and how He revealed Himself fully in Christ. To me, your doctrine of never ending torment is not presenting God as the scriptures do.

So, I'll let you guys have the last word but please no more scriptures that don't address the topic's title.