Evidence for God from Science

We will always still sin as long as we retain some human nature, we will sometimes neglect to do the right thing, but those episodes, over time, do get less and less.

So, if someone is saved, then they will get progessively less sinful? If they don't, then we must assume they/we are not saved?
I've found there are days and times where my walk is very close and very real, and then times where I completely blow it, and feel far from God.
I almost sense that you are implying that not sinning is works. James, who eveyrone seems so quick to reference said works were no such thing.
Are works the personal progress towards holiness, or our service of others in Christ?

The Bible does not say for nothing that the narrow road is a hard one.

actually, the bible doesn't say that. It says the way is narrow, and few will find it. Jesus actually said His yoke was light, and His burden easy.
Is one saved by believing Christ or following Christ. Is there a difference?

August wrote:

truthman wrote:I do see an erroneous definition of saved in Calvinism where a person is said to be born as one of God's elect chosen before the foundation of the world and therefore saved from birth leading to belief at some point in his life.

For me, Ephesians 1 & 2 pretty much takes care of that. There can be no doubt that there is some kind of election...

John 6:64, 65, "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. 65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father." NKJV

Romans 8:29, 30, 31 from the NKJV: "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. 31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?"

God indeed knows all things

With such knowing he elects - Romans 8 indeed says a mouthful...

Someone who is truly born again - nothing can snatch that one from Abba, Papa, Daddy's hands...or stop them from being confromed into whose image?

August, I met several Australians over in the States and they use the phrase 'Daddy God' a lot so have you heard this phrase where you are - just curious… It grows on you after a bit...
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B. W. wrote:

August wrote:

truthman wrote:I do see an erroneous definition of saved in Calvinism where a person is said to be born as one of God's elect chosen before the foundation of the world and therefore saved from birth leading to belief at some point in his life.

For me, Ephesians 1 & 2 pretty much takes care of that. There can be no doubt that there is some kind of election...

John 6:64, 65, "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. 65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father." NKJV

Romans 8:29, 30, 31 from the NKJV: "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. 31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?"

God indeed knows all things

With such knowing he elects - Romans 8 indeed says a mouthful...

Someone who is truly born again - nothing can snatch that one from Abba, Papa, Daddy's hands...or stop them from being confromed into whose image?

August, I met several Australians over in the States and they use the phrase 'Daddy God' a lot so have you heard this phrase where you are - just curious… It grows on you after a bit...
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hahahaha ive never herd that expression before...and i Live in Australia

CeT-To wrote:
hahahaha ive never herd that expression before...and i Live in Australia

I must say the same. This is the first time I've heard that.

jlay wrote:

The Bible does not say for nothing that the narrow road is a hard one.

actually, the bible doesn't say that. It says the way is narrow, and few will find it. Jesus actually said His yoke was light, and His burden easy.
Is one saved by believing Christ or following Christ. Is there a difference?

Mat 7:13 "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.
Mat 7:14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few. (ESV)

One is saved by believing. I need to get back to the rest later, I am pushed for time right now, because there is a lot more to it. Have you looked up "ordo salutis" like I suggested?

"daddy God", "father God", "Papa" are all phrases I've heard and used myself at times. The Bible uses a similar term, "Abba" in Aramaic, which is a similar term of familiar respect and love.

August,
My apologies, I was in error, I should have been more clear. I would take some issue that what Jesus was expounding on here in the SOM doesn't contextually apply, but that may be a different thread.

I'm somewhat familiar with the order of salvation, but I'll read through again. (Reformed?) And familiar with the different doctrines on the matter as interpreted by Arminianism, and Calvanism (TULIP), etc. My questions are not from the place of ignorance, but the place where I disagree with how you have stated some things, and I was asking for clarification as to how you defend those positions scripturally. If you are stating the the Order is your position, then I'll take that this is where you are making your position from, and there isn't any need for further discussion, until I brush up.

August (I'm not excluding others), what does your theology say about Matthew 25:1-13, the Parable of the Ten Virgins?

B. W. wrote:

August wrote:

truthman wrote:I do see an erroneous definition of saved in Calvinism where a person is said to be born as one of God's elect chosen before the foundation of the world and therefore saved from birth leading to belief at some point in his life.

For me, Ephesians 1 & 2 pretty much takes care of that. There can be no doubt that there is some kind of election...

John 6:64, 65, "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. 65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father." NKJV

Romans 8:29, 30, 31 from the NKJV: "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. 31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?"

God indeed knows all things

With such knowing he elects - Romans 8 indeed says a mouthful...

Someone who is truly born again - nothing can snatch that one from Abba, Papa, Daddy's hands...or stop them from being confromed into whose image?
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I totally agree with everything you said.
However, I do not believe in the Calvinist "unconditional election", where God ARBITRARILY chose a few as elect before creation and therefore those few are born elect.
I believe the Bible teaches that God who exists outside of time chose those who BELIEVED the moment they believed in time, before the foundation of the world (creation). The Scriptures clearly teach that election is conditional upon faith, and that election is of those who believe.

This section is not addressing any particular person so...

Regarding the Arminian and Calvinist ordo salutis, I think both miss the point regarding an inward call verses an outward call.

To make my point better understood - Let me pose a scenario and then a question:

Scenario: You are driving fast down a country road, road rounds a sudden curve and you come to an unexpected fork in the road, not other traffic in sight…

Question: think fast - would you turn onto the left fork or onto the right fork?
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B. W. wrote:This section is not addressing any particular person so...

Regarding the Arminian and Calvinist ordo salutis, I think both miss the point regarding an inward call verses an outward call.

To make my point better understood - Let me pose a scenario and then a question:

Scenario: You are driving fast down a country road, road rounds a sudden curve and you come to an unexpected fork in the road, not other traffic in sight…

Question: think fast - would you turn onto the left fork or onto the right fork?
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Depends on what my GPS is telling me to do . (sorry BW, couldn't resist)

Byblos wrote:

B. W. wrote:This section is not addressing any particular person so...

Regarding the Arminian and Calvinist ordo salutis, I think both miss the point regarding an inward call verses an outward call.

To make my point better understood - Let me pose a scenario and then a question:

Scenario: You are driving fast down a country road, road rounds a sudden curve and you come to an unexpected fork in the road, not other traffic in sight…

Question: think fast - would you turn onto the left fork or onto the right fork?
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Depends on what my GPS is telling me to do . (sorry BW, couldn't resist)

Great answer!

Any one else?
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I guess I'm not the only one that doesn't get your point.

I'll take a stab at it.

When choosing right or left, usually we are choosing ,not because of a flip of a coin, but because we prefer one or the other. We want to go either left or right. And what drives that want?

You mean the want to choose? I suppose for some people it must be because they want to be in control but for other people their reasons are probably different, like a strong emotion maybe. Some things can just feel like the right thing to do intuitively, like it is possible to know that a seemingly negative action can have a positive outcome.

Although I do know some people who literally gamble with their life and will pull out a coin or a dice to make decisions in their lives and it is really crazy I should know I've done it before with a 100 sided dice.(there was lots of various alternative decisions and no plainly perfect option)

Anyhow, sometimes you do have to take risks so left or right*, it probably does matter what way you go.

*War doesn't determine who is right. Only who is left.