Is Christian zionism sound doctrine?

[B. W.]

After much studying and understanding of scripture it has become apparent that God wants us to stand with Israel folks... Throughout the years His people (the Jews) are actually marked targets for destruction... I just received a vision that satan still wants to kill them. For the end times too.. For nearly 2 thousand years there is only a very very small remnant left in Israel. Only 5.5 million. Practically nothing, a literal David vs Goliath story.

Our work is not done here yet. Christ wants us to finish what He started... To literally bond with them. The decision is ours..

It has taken literally 2 thousand years for us to finally understand these scriptures folks. Our Christian elders in many cases dropped the spiritual ball based on fear and a very strong delusion called replacement theology.. They came up with their own fake zion, which turned out, I believe, to be a zion of satan. Wow..

Thank you Gman for pointing these things out!

On the current world stage, the Islamic Jihadist are using the leftist works of Saul Alinsky and Clowrad and Piven to ferment in key Middle Eastern Countries that supported the war on Terror by use of popular uprising to throw off the existing regimes.

If successful, Israel will be isolated and our current USA Govt policy is becoming more hostile to Israel as well. This is what bible prophecy paints a picture of. The Jewish people regather into Israel a second time, making it a nation. Later, they’ll be forced to stand alone. There is a bit about an Isle or Isles that still help them but a large force is gathered to attack to wipe out the Jewish people in more brutal fashion than any time in history. The stage is being set before our very eyes.

The abomination that makes desolate is an interesting phrase. After reviewing how the word abomination and desolation is used in the Hebrew text seems to suggest a system made into a idol that seeks to make chaos, ruin, and astonishment – ie fear in those that oppose it. The Islamic Umayyad Caliphate dynasty, ruled from 661 to 750 and then influenced the Islamic Golden age till 1235 AD time frame. It conquered more than five million square miles, making it one of the largest empires in the known world, the fifth largest empire ever to exist in world history. Some scholars have noted 666-667 they occupied Chalcedon and threaten Byzantium and then took Sicily. By 670 they fought against the Berbers and conquered North Africa. By 672 the 'seven year' Arab siege of Constantinople began. It was around the 666 AD time frame that they began seeking worldwide domination.

The Dome of the Rock was Built 687-691 AD on the temple mount to represent the domination of Islam over the Jews and Christians and Pagans as well as mocks Jesus ascension into heaven. See quote below from online article for details.
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The sacred rock over which the Dome of the Rock is built was considered holy before the arrival of Islam. Jews believed, and still believe, the rock to be the very place where Abraham prepared to sacrifice Isaac (an event which Muslims place in Mecca). In addition, the Dome of the Rock (or the adjacent Dome of the Chain) is believed by many to stand directly over the site of the Holy of Holies of both Solomon's Temple and Herod's Temple.

The Dome of the Rock was built by the Umayyad caliph Abd al-Malik from 688 to 691 AD. It was not intended to be a mosque, but a shrine for pilgrims. According to tradition, the Dome of the Rock was built to commemorate Muhammad's ascension into heaven after his night journey to Jerusalem (Qur'an 17). But there seems to have been more to it than this, since the Dome of the Ascension was later built nearby.

Actually, according to the Oxford Archaeological Guide to the Holy Land, "Abd al-Malik's purpose was more complex and subtle." He wished to erect a beautiful Muslim building that could compete with the majestic churches of Christendom and would be a symbolic statement to both Jews and Christians of the superiority of the new faith of Islam. "His building spoke to Jews by its location, to Christians by its interior decoration." [1]

Quoted from this article online Dome of the Rock

Since the dome of the rock’s intent was to show place Muslim dominance and mocks Jesus’ own ascension into heaven, you have the criteria that matches the Hebrew word translated in Daniel as Abomination. Islam is a new religion just as the prophet Daniel stated that the god of the anti-Christ would be one unknown and one of warfare. Islam lays ruin, imposes desolations, creates chaos, and seeks to astonish people thru fear and intimidation – which also matches the Hebrew definition of the word translated desolation.

So you have an actual symbol on the temple mount in Jerusalem and is an abomination to the Lord of Host. And a new Religion that follows in its wake fear and oppression making desolation. The Ancient Romans also followed a god of conquest as well but they did not build the dome of the rock or placed any lasting monument on the temple mount in 70 AD.

What I am saying is that this abomination of desolation is a system political/religious that seeks world dominance by use of created desolation in its wake. Islam fits the bill and left a monument to that effect on the temple mount that portrays world dominance and mocks Jesus as well.

The Jewish people have regathered a second time and became a nation. As it is written, the devil will make war against both Jews and Christians worldwide. Now, we can endlessly debate the interpretation of text but we cannot ignore the gravity of what is unfolding before our very eyes.
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[Gman]

Bryan,

I think you are right. Also I'm starting to see a huge rift between America and Israel. Something that wasn't quite as pronounced in the Clinton or Bush administrations. And some Palestinians seem to be ramping up on their hatred of the Jews and Israel. Adults dressing up in bunny suits in order to teach their children to hate or kill Jews?? What is this world coming too?

Palestinian Media watch
http://www.palwatch.org/

[Gman]

Here is the list of Churches that currently condemn the Zionist philosophy including the Presbyterian Church, my former church. It's no wonder why these establishments are having difficult times right now, financially, and getting new converts possibly.

No offense to anyone else...

Church Actions in Opposition to Israel

On October 23, 2010, the Vatican-in the final statement from a two-week bishops' synod-blamed Israel for the plight of Christians throughout the Middle East, and stated that Israel cannot use the biblical concept of a Promised Land or a Chosen People to justify territorial claims or new "settlements" in Jerusalem.

The World Council Churches, the National Council of Churches, the Presbyterian Church (USA), the, Methodist Church, the Lutheran Church (ELCA), the Anglican Church, and the United Church of Christ have publicly condemned Christian Zionists through statements or resolutions. They have also called for the boycott of goods made in Judea and Samaria, and divestment in companies that provide equipment for Israel's protection and economic viability as a productive democracy.The World Council of Churches in New York City hosted Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad at a dinner after his hate-filled speech about Israel at the United Nations in September 2008. And he continues to call for the destruction of Israel." -Jewish Voice pg. 19

[jlay]

Here is the list of Churches that currently condemn the Zionist philosophy including the Presbyterian Church, my former church. It's no wonder why these establishments are having difficult times right now, financially, and getting new converts possibly.

G. Come on man. That's just.......

[Gman]

Here is the list of Churches that currently condemn the Zionist philosophy including the Presbyterian Church, my former church. It's no wonder why these establishments are having difficult times right now, financially, and getting new converts possibly.

G. Come on man. That's just.......

Crazy... I know.... But the only Presbyterian Church just closed shop in my town and was replaced by a non-denominational Zionist church. True story.. So don't look at me..

I didn't even know I was a Zionist.. I'm just figuring this out right now. But if that is what God wants me to be then so be it.. I can't stop it, it's God's doing.

[Canuckster1127]

I think the current trend in Church closings has a lot more to do with issues identified by George Barna in his book "Revolution".

Prophetic Zionism as an American Christian movement, historically, as I understand it anyway, has more to do with how those settlers coming to America identified with those Biblical Passages, particularly Exodus, and drew parallels with America as the "Promised Land." Over time, it's been particularly easy to identify nationally and then religiously with Israel. That's not the only explanation as there's a strong British Zionest type movement as well.

I recall hearing from an acquantance of mine who has written books on the Christian Heritage in the US that he did a strong statistical analysis of Bible Passages quoted and alluded to in political speeches, books, newspaper articles etc. from Colonial times and not only was the Bible the most quoted and alluded to in literary terms but of those, by far, the most recurrant theme was identifying the colonies and colonists as coming out of "Egypt" and into the promised land of America (or the name of the colony).

With that sort of personal, national and religious identification, that's a pretty plausible explanation as to how the movement became mixed into an actual identification with Israel and then of course, the re-establishment of Israel as a Nation (tracing back to just after WWI) and the emotions of the Holocaust, which the US identified with hugely helps to explain how the movement grew and was tapped into on all sorts of levels culturally, and religiously.

[zoegirl]

low blow

[jlay]

I didn't even know I was a Zionist.. I'm just figuring this out right now. But if that is what God wants me to be then so be it.. I can't stop it, it's God's doing.

Then why are you talking here like a reformed preterist?

The point Gman, is that your comment was predjudicial and not based on sound reasoning. I could cite the local Pres church here with over 5k members, that gives 50% of its budget to missions, and is vigorously thriving.

And you need to understand that just because a church has Zion in their name, or in their doctrine doesn't mean they hold to a concept of Zionism that agrees with your own.

Old churches are closing doors and new ones opening for a variety of reasons. Even in my hometown we have a 'new' church. Their attendance is through the roof. Why? Old Christians wanting a new flavor. Moving the flock from one pen to another. Find a person at random in a Pres. church or whatever denomination, and ask them to break down the differences in Zionism, or any other theology for that matter.

[Gman]

I didn't even know I was a Zionist.. I'm just figuring this out right now. But if that is what God wants me to be then so be it.. I can't stop it, it's God's doing.

Then why are you talking here like a reformed preterist?

I don't believe I have ever copped to the preterist view jlay.. But I'm stating that my upbringing in the Pres Church, at least how it relates to replacement theology, is in possible jeopardy. Or you could say bjorked...

The point Gman, is that your comment was predjudicial and not based on sound reasoning. I could cite the local Pres church here with over 5k members, that gives 50% of its budget to missions, and is vigorously thriving.

And you need to understand that just because a church has Zion in their name, or in their doctrine doesn't mean they hold to a concept of Zionism that agrees with your own.

Old churches are closing doors and new ones opening for a variety of reasons. Even in my hometown we have a 'new' church. Their attendance is through the roof. Why? Old Christians wanting a new flavor. Moving the flock from one pen to another. Find a person at random in a Pres. church or whatever denomination, and ask them to break down the differences in Zionism, or any other theology for that matter.

Ok. Let me put it this way.... It's just my observation. Please take it with a grain of salt...

Yes you could argue that the music and the mindset has changed from the previous generations. But about a church's theology, that in itself could be a stubbing block. I don't claim to have all the answers here. Also, what form of Zionism do you propose?

Anyway, as strange as it may sound, it appears that this new revelation is unfolding like a Hollywood movie script.

[Gman]

With that sort of personal, national and religious identification, that's a pretty plausible explanation as to how the movement became mixed into an actual identification with Israel and then of course, the re-establishment of Israel as a Nation (tracing back to just after WWI) and the emotions of the Holocaust, which the US identified with hugely helps to explain how the movement grew and was tapped into on all sorts of levels culturally, and religiously.

I think it would have to involve a huge climax to stick anyway. Like the holocaust, the murder of some 6 million people. Coincidence?

[Canuckster1127]

Certainly that has been a huge influence on American's views in general toward Israel as a nation, but the religious parallels and and identification have been a part of America and particularly American Religious thought, culture and influence for a long time even before then.

[Gman]

Certainly that has been a huge influence on American's views in general toward Israel as a nation, but the religious parallels and and identification have been a part of America and particularly American Religious thought, culture and influence for a long time even before then.

Hmmm.. Maybe I'm not too off the mark then.

"In 1808, Asa McFarland, a Presbyterian, voiced the opinion of many that the fall of the Ottoman Empire was imminent and would bring about the restoration of the Jews."

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_ ... velopments

[Gman]

Bart, are you claiming I'm fulfilling the requirements of what it is to be American?

[Canuckster1127]

Bart, are you claiming I'm fulfilling the requirements of what it is to be American?

Just making an observation based on History. Not evaluating the merits of the position. In truth, I don't particularly find much of populist eschatology all that convincing. Portions of the Preterist positon make more sense to me exegetically and in terms of Church History.

Christian Zionism, to me, whether it is American, British or whatever, just seems to be a collection of Biblical Prophecy merged with Nationalism and if not designed than at least the result is a sense of Israel's chosen nation status being conferred elsewhere. It' seems to me often to just be an intellectual exercise in taking today's news and postulating how that might be a fulfillment of prophecy. After about the 4th version of Hal Lindsay's propecies, I lost interest.

[Gman]

Just making an observation based on History. Not evaluating the merits of the position. In truth, I don't particularly find much of populist eschatology all that convincing. Portions of the Preterist positon make more sense to me exegetically and in terms of Church History.

Oh..

Christian Zionism, to me, whether it is American, British or whatever, just seems to be a collection of Biblical Prophecy merged with Nationalism and if not designed than at least the result is a sense of Israel's chosen nation status being conferred elsewhere. It' seems to me often to just be an intellectual exercise in taking today's news and postulating how that might be a fulfillment of prophecy. After about the 4th version of Hal Lindsay's propecies, I lost interest.

Well.. Hal Lindsay sure has a history of making poor if not false prophecies, no question there. In fact he stated in 07 that Israel would bomb Iran. Regardless I have learned to take him with a grain of salt.

But are we lumping it all into the "bunk" category? That is where I'm not too sure to go yet on the account of a few wackos... Leave the door open so to speak.