Evidence for God from Science

B. W. wrote: Atheists usually are mirroring themselves. They tout open-mindedness but are close minded toward God - how can that really be open minded? They also fail to see that even the bible mentions false brethren and leaders:

Well, there may be a reason for the closemindedness. Experiences from the childhood. Being raised in the religious family but ... . They may fail to see some things because their previous teachers failed. And they think that they were wasting their time and does not want to waste it anymore. Children should be encouradged to ask questions.

B. W. wrote: So there is a misunderstanding they have about God fore they deny that there is any unseen hand at work working truth. Yet, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism has not undergone any reformation since conception. Especially Islam as it will never be able to self correct in accordance to truth.

And what about Jews?

B. W. wrote:

1over137 wrote: 3. Then, for example, I can imagine a guy falling in love with a girl who is a Christian, but he cannot be with the girl because of Christian principles.

Not true. People marry cross lines all the time, sometimes for worse or sometimes for betterment when spouse turns to the Lord.

We disagree here. This is what my Christian friend once wrote me:

"Again, Christ ate with "sinners", but he never became one in order to win them. He did show them his wilingness to befriend them and reach out to them, but he never gave up his loyalty to his Father. He would not become one of them in order to reach them. He remained holy God. We can reach out to unbelievers too, in fact we are told to be holding up our lights so men can see us and glorify him. But we cannot become like them. We must be "in" the world, but not "of" the world, said Jesus. If we belong to God, if we are his bride, we want to remain solely his. A bride has man friends and women friends, but she knows not to fall in love with any of them! She can have many friends, but none are to become lovers! That is the "up to a point" issue you mentioned. If the Scriptures tell us not to be unequally yoked" with unbelievers,(and they do), or if they tell us that we are light, and they are darkness and these two cannot be in the same place at once (again, the Scriptures do tell us this), then we want to obey this principle and we will not allow this to happen in our relationships with others. We cannot let ourselves cross over from light to darkness and become disobedient to Christ and his word. ut we are warned to beware of the danger that we may be getting too close to unbelievers and find that instead of them changing, YOU are the one being changed! This can sometimes happen because of peer pressure, yes, but most often, young people take the verse that we should be "salt" and "light" to unbelievers as a way to "rationalize" that it is ok for them to have an unbelieving boyfriend or girlfriend in order to help them to become better and to become Christian. Typically, the thinking goes like this:
"Isn't a relationship with a non-Christian guy a great chance to witness to him? Besides, he's nice, my friends like him, he loves me and only does good things for me" "How can it be wrong?" I'm sure you can add more stuff that people say to this list."

B. W. wrote: Ezekiel 14:3, "Son of man, these men have set up their idols in their hearts, and put before them that which causes them to stumble into iniquity. Should I let Myself be inquired of at all by them? NKJV

These need to be addressed... with truth, honesty, gentleness...

Ezekiel 14:4, Therefore speak to them, and say to them, 'Thus says the Lord God: "Everyone of the house of Israel who sets up his idols in his heart, and puts before him what causes him to stumble into iniquity, and then comes to the prophet, I the Lord will answer him who comes, according to the multitude of his idols,

So, if one seeks the truth, he should be safe. If person's idol is the lie will then God lie to him? How should one understand that verse? What does it really mean that "the Lord will answer him who comes, according to the multitude of his idols"?

1over137 wrote:

B. W. wrote:So there is a misunderstanding they have about God fore they deny that there is any unseen hand at work working truth. Yet, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism has not undergone any reformation since conception. Especially Islam as it will never be able to self correct in accordance to truth.

And what about Jews?

Included, forgot to mention the Jewish people...

1over137 wrote:

B. W. wrote:...Not true. People marry cross lines all the time, sometimes for worse or sometimes for betterment when spouse turns to the Lord.

We disagree here. This is what my Christian friend once wrote me:

"Again, Christ ate with "sinners", but he never became one in order to win them. He did show them his wilingness to befriend them and reach out to them, but he never gave up his loyalty to his Father. He would not become one of them in order to reach them. He remained holy God. We can reach out to unbelievers too, in fact we are told to be holding up our lights so men can see us and glorify him. But we cannot become like them. We must be "in" the world, but not "of" the world, said Jesus. If we belong to God, if we are his bride, we want to remain solely his. A bride has man friends and women friends, but she knows not to fall in love with any of them! She can have many friends, but none are to become lovers! That is the "up to a point" issue you mentioned. If the Scriptures tell us not to be unequally yoked" with unbelievers,(and they do), or if they tell us that we are light, and they are darkness and these two cannot be in the same place at once (again, the Scriptures do tell us this), then we want to obey this principle and we will not allow this to happen in our relationships with others. We cannot let ourselves cross over from light to darkness and become disobedient to Christ and his word. ut we are warned to beware of the danger that we may be getting too close to unbelievers and find that instead of them changing, YOU are the one being changed! This can sometimes happen because of peer pressure, yes, but most often, young people take the verse that we should be "salt" and "light" to unbelievers as a way to "rationalize" that it is ok for them to have an unbelieving boyfriend or girlfriend in order to help them to become better and to become Christian. Typically, the thinking goes like this: "Isn't a relationship with a non-Christian guy a great chance to witness to him? Besides, he's nice, my friends like him, he loves me and only does good things for me" "How can it be wrong?" I'm sure you can add more stuff that people say to this list."?

I think the following verses help shed light on this a bit more...

1 Co 7:12, 13, 14, 15c, "But to the rest I, not the Lord, say: If any brother has a wife who does not believe, and she is willing to live with him, let him not divorce her. 13 And a woman who has a husband who does not believe, if he is willing to live with her, let her not divorce him. 14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy. 15 But if the unbeliever departs, let him depart; a brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases. But God has called us to peace." NKJV

As for boyfriend/girlfriend thing mentioned, it does happen, what can you say other than warn them that they are making a mistake> If they listen - it will turn out well, if not, they'll sadly learn the hard way. What's ya do?

1over137 wrote:

B. W. wrote:Ezekiel 14:3, "Son of man, these men have set up their idols in their hearts, and put before them that which causes them to stumble into iniquity. Should I let Myself be inquired of at all by them? NKJV

These need to be addressed... with truth, honesty, gentleness...

Ezekiel 14:4, Therefore speak to them, and say to them, 'Thus says the Lord God: "Everyone of the house of Israel who sets up his idols in his heart, and puts before him what causes him to stumble into iniquity, and then comes to the prophet, I the Lord will answer him who comes, according to the multitude of his idols,

So, if one seeks the truth, he should be safe. If person's idol is the lie will then God lie to him? How should one understand that verse? What does it really mean that "the Lord will answer him who comes, according to the multitude of his idols"?

Kiel and Delitzsch Comentary states it like this for these verses:

"The manner in which God will show Himself answering the idolatry according to their idols, is reserved till Ezekiel 14:8. Here, in Ezekiel 14:5, the design of this procedure on the part of God is given: viz., to grasp Israel by the heart; i.e., not merely to touch and to improve them, but to bring down their heart by judgments (cf. Lev 26:41), and thus move them to give up idolatry and return to the living God. נָָֹזרוּ, as in Isaiah 1:4, to recede, to draw away from God. כֻּלָּם is an emphatic repetition of the subject belonging to נָָֹזרוּ"

Verse 8 answers how God answer those who do not repent (Note verse Ezekiel 14:6c) ... Those who not are answered...according to one's idol

Ezekiel 14:8, "I will set My face against that man and make him a sign and a proverb, and I will cut him off from the midst of My people. Then you shall know that I am the LORD."
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B. W. wrote: So there is a misunderstanding they have about God fore they deny that there is any unseen hand at work working truth. Yet, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism has not undergone any reformation since conception. Especially Islam as it will never be able to self correct in accordance to truth.

Why will Islam never be able to self correct? Is there something more than denying the unseen hand?

B. W. wrote: I think the following verses help shed light on this a bit more...
1 Co 7:12, 13, 14, 15c, "But to the rest I, not the Lord, say: If any brother has a wife who does not believe, and she is willing to live with him, let him not divorce her. 13 And a woman who has a husband who does not believe, if he is willing to live with her, let her not divorce him. 14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by
the husband; otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy. 15 But if the unbeliever departs, let him depart; a brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases. But God has called us to peace." NKJV

To settle this issue down:

2 Co 6:14,15,16,17,18 Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? (15) What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? (16) What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people. (17) Therefore come out from them and be separate, says the Lord. Touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you. (18) I will be a Father to you, and you will be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty.

I found that on http://www.net-burst.net/singles/dating.htm#mix. The title is "Choosing a Partner - Dating a Non-Christian". It is interesting to read the whole page. But I will quote a little bit:

"... falling in love tends to be something outside our control. Devoted Christians can therefore find themselves in love with non-Christians. Some, unaware that Scripture addresses this matter, have even deliberately exposed themselves to this in the hope of winning someone to the Lord. If ever the saying ‘The path to hell is paved with good intentions’ were true, it applies to this tragedy."

"‘Do not be misled,’ says Scripture, ‘bad company corrupts good character.’"

"A spiritually mixed marriage is a hideous perversion."

"People who become Christians after they are married have God’s blessing because they did not deliberately enter a spiritually perverse marriage. They were both non-Christians when they married. They can expect spiritual protection from their unchristian partner.(1 Co 7:13 ) But Christians who sin by marrying non-Christians are in grave danger. By disregarding God’s warning about relationships, they throw away their right to divine protection, unless they thoroughly repent, which involves genuinely regretting that they married. Never imagine you can fool God by deciding beforehand to ‘enjoy’ both sin and God’s forgiveness by ‘repenting’ after your deliberate sin."

One more thing: When once dialoging with my Christian friend we agreed that one cannot expect to win the other person. He then added: "Until God grants that."

B. W. wrote: As for boyfriend/girlfriend thing mentioned, it does happen, what can you say other than warn them that they are making a mistake> If they listen - it will turn out well, if not, they'll sadly learn the hard way. What's ya do?

I think it's not good to marry a person with a differrent worldview. I do not see how Christian and non-Christian can agree
on raising their children.

1over137 wrote:

B. W. wrote:So there is a misunderstanding they have about God fore they deny that there is any unseen hand at work working truth. Yet, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism has not undergone any reformation since conception. Especially Islam as it will never be able to self correct in accordance to truth.

Why will Islam never be able to self correct? Is there something more than denying the unseen hand?

Do a historical study on Islam - from ancient Paganism based on the warrior Moon god/godess releigions... It cannot self correct due to demonic nature. Have you heard the latest from their radical leaders? Owning Salves and sex slaves - is a right? Point of Isalm is total world domination! Jesus said his kengdom is not of the world... Islam's is...

1over137 wrote: I found that on http://www.net-burst.net/singles/dating.htm#mix. The title is "Choosing a Partner - Dating a Non-Christian". It is interesting to read the whole page. But I will quote a little bit:

"... falling in love tends to be something outside our control. Devoted Christians can therefore find themselves in love with non-Christians. Some, unaware that Scripture addresses this matter, have even deliberately exposed themselves to this in the hope of winning someone to the Lord. If ever the saying ‘The path to hell is paved with good intentions’ were true, it applies to this tragedy."

"‘Do not be misled,’ says Scripture, ‘bad company corrupts good character.’"

"A spiritually mixed marriage is a hideous perversion."

"People who become Christians after they are married have God’s blessing because they did not deliberately enter a spiritually perverse marriage. They were both non-Christians when they married. They can expect spiritual protection from their unchristian partner.(1 Co 7:13 ) But Christians who sin by marrying non-Christians are in grave danger. By disregarding God’s warning about relationships, they throw away their right to divine protection, unless they thoroughly repent, which involves genuinely regretting that they married. Never imagine you can fool God by deciding beforehand to ‘enjoy’ both sin and God’s forgiveness by ‘repenting’ after your deliberate sin."

One more thing: When once dialoging with my Christian friend we agreed that one cannot expect to win the other person. He then added: "Until God grants that."...

AS they say - love is blind. I see this all the time with believers - I try to tell them they have been bit by the Lust Bug but they seldom listen... Ido not know what else can be done other than warn them and if possible be there after it does not work out... or pray someone else can reach them...

1over137 wrote:...I think it's not good to marry a person with a differrent worldview. I do not see how Christian and non-Christian can agree
on raising their children.

I agree and I do know how the two can agree on raising kids if differences are too great. Maybe someone reading this has more insight into this matter than I do - if so please comment...
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B. W. wrote: So there is a misunderstanding they have about God fore they deny that there is any unseen hand at work working truth..

How do you know that Jews deny that?

B. W. wrote: AS they say - love is blind. I see this all the time with believers - I try to tell them they have been bit by the Lust Bug but they seldom listen... Ido not know what else can be done other than warn them and if possible be there after it does not work out... or pray someone else can reach them...

They do not even listen to the stories of unsuccesful marriages? Or to the statistics of mixed marriages?

1over137 wrote:

B. W. wrote: So there is a misunderstanding they have about God fore they deny that there is any unseen hand at work working truth..

How do you know that Jews deny that?

How do I know? first read the bible - it is in their history well record - falling away from God by going after idols and idols in the heart. God dealings are different with the Jewiah people than with believers in Christ. Read the scriptures to see what I mean.

1over137 wrote:

B. W. wrote:AS they say - love is blind. I see this all the time with believers - I try to tell them they have been bit by the Lust Bug but they seldom listen... Ido not know what else can be done other than warn them and if possible be there after it does not work out... or pray someone else can reach them...

They do not even listen to the stories of unsuccesful marriages? Or to the statistics of mixed marriages?

No, I have found that most do not, a few may listen and realize come to their senses.

Just remember, in Islam they'll honor kill for transgressing in a mixed marriage - kill people for this. In Christianity, we warn, discuss, try to persuade gently without force, and if they do not listen -that is their issue. They are free to go. Yes, there are christian zealots who use force, but they are a very rare group and even these do not kill anyone for a mixxed marriage as does Islamic law.
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Hi all. One question: What is the best atheistic forum? I am on this one but I also want to explore a little bit the other one.

Katabole wrote:Jesus said:
If you do not believe in me you will die in your sins.

Where is it in the Bible?

1over137 wrote:Katabole wrote:
Jesus said:
If you do not believe in me you will die in your sins.


Where is it in the Bible?

John 8:24 (KJV) I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Something by R.P.Feynman:

[-snip-]

"God was invented to explain mystery. God is always invented to explain those things that you do not understand. Now, when you finally discover how something works, you get some laws which you're taking away from God; you don't need him anymore. But you need him for the other mysteries. So therefore you leave him to create the universe because we haven't figured that out yet; you need him for understanding those things which you don't believe the laws will explain, such as consiousness, or why you only live to a certain length of time -- life and death -- stuff like that. God is always associated with those things that you do not understand. Therefore I don't think that the laws can be considered to be like God because they have been figured out."

"I don't have to know an answer. I don't feel frightened not knowing things, by being lost in a mysterious universe without any purpose, which is the way it really is as far as I can tell, possibly. It doesn't frighten me."

"In those days, in Far Rockaway, there was a youth center for Jewish kids at the temple.... Somebody nominated me for president of the youth center. The elders began getting nervous, because I was an avowed atheist by that time.... I thought nature itself was so interesting that I didn't want it distorted like that [by miracle stories]. And so I gradually came to disbelieve the whole religion."

"I can't believe special stories, because they seem to be simple."

"I think it's much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers which might be wrong."

1over137 wrote:

B. W. wrote:...Not true. People marry cross lines all the time, sometimes for worse or sometimes for betterment when spouse turns to the Lord.

We disagree here. This is what my Christian friend once wrote me:

"Again, Christ ate with "sinners", but he never became one in order to win them. He did show them his wilingness to befriend them and reach out to them, but he never gave up his loyalty to his Father. He would not become one of them in order to reach them. He remained holy God. We can reach out to unbelievers too, in fact we are told to be holding up our lights so men can see us and glorify him. But we cannot become like them. We must be "in" the world, but not "of" the world, said Jesus. If we belong to God, if we are his bride, we want to remain solely his. A bride has man friends and women friends, but she knows not to fall in love with any of them! She can have many friends, but none are to become lovers! That is the "up to a point" issue you mentioned. If the Scriptures tell us not to be unequally yoked" with unbelievers,(and they do), or if they tell us that we are light, and they are darkness and these two cannot be in the same place at once (again, the Scriptures do tell us this), then we want to obey this principle and we will not allow this to happen in our relationships with others. We cannot let ourselves cross over from light to darkness and become disobedient to Christ and his word. ut we are warned to beware of the danger that we may be getting too close to unbelievers and find that instead of them changing, YOU are the one being changed! This can sometimes happen because of peer pressure, yes, but most often, young people take the verse that we should be "salt" and "light" to unbelievers as a way to "rationalize" that it is ok for them to have an unbelieving boyfriend or girlfriend in order to help them to become better and to become Christian. Typically, the thinking goes like this: "Isn't a relationship with a non-Christian guy a great chance to witness to him? Besides, he's nice, my friends like him, he loves me and only does good things for me" "How can it be wrong?" I'm sure you can add more stuff that people say to this list."?

I think the following verses help shed light on this a bit more...

1 Co 7:12, 13, 14, 15c, "But to the rest I, not the Lord, say: If any brother has a wife who does not believe, and she is willing to live with him, let him not divorce her. 13 And a woman who has a husband who does not believe, if he is willing to live with her, let her not divorce him. 14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy. 15 But if the unbeliever departs, let him depart; a brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases. But God has called us to peace." NKJV

As for boyfriend/girlfriend thing mentioned, it does happen, what can you say other than warn them that they are making a mistake> If they listen - it will turn out well, if not, they'll sadly learn the hard way. What's ya do?

Hi,
I think that verse is referring to a already married couple where one person becomes a christian after marriage. It doesn't say to marry unbelievers, but to not divorce them. I think Rich actually mentioned this.

“What makes a person atheist?”


By being without a belief in a supreme being/s.

Another thing is impatience.

And C.S.Lewis said the following (Mere Christianity - Preface):

It is true that some peple may find they have to wait in the hall for a considerable time, while others feel certain almost at once which door they must knock at. I do not know why there is this difference, but I am sure God keeps no one waiting unless He sees that it is good for him to wait. When you do get into your room you will find that the long wait has done you some kind of good which you would not have had otherwise. But you must regard it as waiting, not as camping. You must keep on praying for light: and of course, even in the hall, you must begin trying to obey rules which are common to the whole house. And above all you must be asking which door is the true one; not which pleases you best by its paint and paneling.

MarcusOfLycia wrote:

1over137 wrote:I'd like to also ask what remains from a person when going to hell? Will God take back what belongs to Him?

That would be unloving according to God's definition (which includes not choosing our destinations for us). Remember, the best definition of hell is eternal death, and the best definition of death is separation from God. So "eternal separation from God" is basically what hell is. Much harder for God than for those enduring it. Remember, He loves us! Yet, He lets us have our way because our love that comes in response to Him cannot be force, lest it not be love.

I have just been reading Matthew:29,30
29 “For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. 30 Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

So.. how is it with taking away what belongs to God?