Evidence for God from Science

Murray wrote:John 8:7

Leviticus 20:10

Israel was God's earthly representation of God's kingdom. Israel was set apart from all nations to be a witness to God. Leviticus was written for the people of Israel, but has spiritual and symbolic meaning for us. Any punishments for sins committed were specific to Israel. As far as John 8:7, Jesus didn't condemn her. But He also told her to leave her life of sin. The part about God not changing, means that God looks at sin the same as He always has. Sin 3000 years ago is still sin today. Just because we as believers live under Grace, it doesn't give us license to do whatever we wish. God established what we call marriage in Genesis 2:24. Marriage was established, by God to be between one man and one woman only. Any other relationship cannot be truly marriage. Whether it's man and man, woman and woman, man and five women, etc.

RickD wrote:

Murray wrote:John 8:7

Leviticus 20:10

Israel was God's earthly representation of God's kingdom. Israel was set apart from all nations to be a witness to God. Leviticus was written for the people of Israel, but has spiritual and symbolic meaning for us. Any punishments for sins committed were specific to Israel. As far as John 8:7, Jesus didn't condemn her. But He also told her to leave her life of sin. The part about God not changing, means that God looks at sin the same as He always has. Sin 3000 years ago is still sin today. Just because we as believers live under Grace, it doesn't give us license to do whatever we wish. God established what we call marriage in Genesis 2:24. Marriage was established, by God to be between one man and one woman only. Any other relationship cannot be truly marriage. Whether it's man and man, woman and woman, man and five women, etc.

from your point of view why does it matter who the law was for. You have made your view that god says it once, that it was he believes and what he wants, and he never changes a sliver. So according to your logic, god still wants adulters to be stoned.

Murray wrote:

RickD wrote:

Murray wrote:John 8:7

Leviticus 20:10

Israel was God's earthly representation of God's kingdom. Israel was set apart from all nations to be a witness to God. Leviticus was written for the people of Israel, but has spiritual and symbolic meaning for us. Any punishments for sins committed were specific to Israel. As far as John 8:7, Jesus didn't condemn her. But He also told her to leave her life of sin. The part about God not changing, means that God looks at sin the same as He always has. Sin 3000 years ago is still sin today. Just because we as believers live under Grace, it doesn't give us license to do whatever we wish. God established what we call marriage in Genesis 2:24. Marriage was established, by God to be between one man and one woman only. Any other relationship cannot be truly marriage. Whether it's man and man, woman and woman, man and five women, etc.

from your point of view why does it matter who the law was for. You have made your view that god says it once, that it was he believes and what he wants, and he never changes a sliver. So according to your logic, god still wants adulters to be stoned.

The Law, complete with the Law's consequences for breaking them are for the Jews under the Law. The Church is under Grace, yet we should keep looking upon Love of God and for one another which is the heart of the Law.

No Murray that is a gross misrepresentation.

How justice was merited out in these cases was for Israel. In Christ all the punishment for sin has been handled. That doesn't mean we turn a blind eye to sin. Especially amongst believers. Paul instructs the church that they are to fail to discipline believers. That are to be confronted, and if unrepentent, expelled from fellowship.

It is simple, as already stated once in this thread. Is murder wrong? When did it become wrong? When will it stop being wrong?

The OT condemned the eating of certain foods. When and for who was eating such foods sinful? Israel only. The NT lifts the ban on such food. The OT condemns homosexual intercourse, fornication, adultery. The NT confirms the condemnation of sexual immorality.

Seriously, what is really so unclear about the matter?

And no God does not change. The Bible says He doesn't change. If God changes then it simply doesn't matter what scripture says to anyone or at anytime. Scripture would be arbitrary. For example, what if God changed His mind about the death of Christ covering the sins of the world?

The woman caught in adultery was still guilty of adultery. Jesus did not come to condemn but to save. Mankind was already condemned. (Rom 3:23)

jlay wrote:No Murray that is a gross misrepresentation.

How justice was merited out in these cases was for Israel. In Christ all the punishment for sin has been handled. That doesn't mean we turn a blind eye to sin. Especially amongst believers. Paul instructs the church that they are to fail to discipline believers. That are to be confronted, and if unrepentent, expelled from fellowship.

It is simple, as already stated once in this thread. Is murder wrong? When did it become wrong? When will it stop being wrong?

The OT condemned the eating of certain foods. When and for who was eating such foods sinful? Israel only. The NT lifts the ban on such food. The OT condemns homosexual intercourse, fornication, adultery. The NT confirms the condemnation of sexual immorality.

Seriously, what is really so unclear about the matter?

And no God does not change. The Bible says He doesn't change. If God changes then it simply doesn't matter what scripture says to anyone or at anytime. Scripture would be arbitrary. For example, what if God changed His mind about the death of Christ covering the sins of the world?

The woman caught in adultery was still guilty of adultery. Jesus did not come to condemn but to save. Mankind was already condemned. (Rom 3:23)

I'll replay the broken record.

a true christian, who has the holy spirit within, can recognize a sin when he commits one. If a truley devout christian is a homosexual, but yet the holy spirit does not condem him it is either one of 2 things
1)he is ignoring the holy spirit telling him it is wrong
2)the holy spirit does not hate the sin of homosexuality

Murray wrote:

RickD wrote:

Murray wrote:John 8:7

Leviticus 20:10

Israel was God's earthly representation of God's kingdom. Israel was set apart from all nations to be a witness to God. Leviticus was written for the people of Israel, but has spiritual and symbolic meaning for us. Any punishments for sins committed were specific to Israel. As far as John 8:7, Jesus didn't condemn her. But He also told her to leave her life of sin. The part about God not changing, means that God looks at sin the same as He always has. Sin 3000 years ago is still sin today. Just because we as believers live under Grace, it doesn't give us license to do whatever we wish. God established what we call marriage in Genesis 2:24. Marriage was established, by God to be between one man and one woman only. Any other relationship cannot be truly marriage. Whether it's man and man, woman and woman, man and five women, etc.

from your point of view why does it matter who the law was for. You have made your view that god says it once, that it was he believes and what he wants, and he never changes a sliver. So according to your logic, god still wants adulters to be stoned.

I'm sorry, I'm not explaining it better. What's a sin has always been a sin. Even BEFORE God's law was given to Moses. So, it was wrong before the law, when God gave the law specifically to Moses for Israel, and now when we don't live under a law that wasn't given to us. Kind of like chattel slavery that existed in the U.S. up until the late 1800's. Before the U.S. was a country, it was wrong to steal someone from his home, enslave him, and make him do whatever one wants. During the time when it was LEGAL in the U.S. to own a slave, it was still morally wrong. Then after it was made a law SPECIFICALLY in the U.S. for slavery to be illegal, chattel slavery is still morally wrong. Using your argument, would be for example: Country x says since they aren't living under U.S. law, they can steal someone from his family, and enslave him. I'm saying that just because country x isn't living under U.S. law, it doesn't make it right in God's eyes to enslave someone. Do you see the connection?

Murray wrote: a true christian, who has the holy spirit within, can recognize a sin when he commits one. If a truley devout christian is a homosexual, but yet the holy spirit does not condem him it is either one of 2 things
1)he is ignoring the holy spirit telling him it is wrong
2)the holy spirit does not hate the sin of homosexuality

I have three responses to this. The first is:

a true christian, who has the holy spirit within, can recognize a sin when he commits one. If a truley devout christian is [disrespectful of his wife], but yet the holy spirit does not condem him it is either one of 2 things
1)he is ignoring the holy spirit telling him it is wrong
2)the holy spirit does not hate the sin of [treating your wife badly]

Through many times in our history and even today, men may treat their wives disrespectfully and be considered 'devout' Christians. They may even think themselves devout. God's standard is perfect, however, and no one is capable of attaining it on their own, regardless of whether their sin is lust, homosexuality, or not treating one's wife with the proper respect.

The second is: Lust is considered a sin, yet it is completely natural and some might even argue it is beneficial. Homosexuality therefor, could be either natural or artificial and it wouldn't matter: we have another sexual sin that is a sin despite its naturalness.

The third is what God Himself had to say about homosexuality:

Leviticus 20:13 says "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

And one of God's Apostles:

1st Corinthians 6:9 and 10 "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! The sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, passive homosexual partners, practicing homosexuals, For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers and sisters, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they were all drinking from the spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ. But God was not pleased with most of them, for they were cut down in the wilderness. These things happened as examples for us, so that we will not crave evil things as they did."

If you consider:
1. The sexually immoral
2. Idolaters
3. Adulterers
to be against God, then why not the rest of those mentioned there? I guess I don't quite understand why any of those things are wrong if homosexuality wouldn't be considered wrong. The standard can be embraced or rejected, but splitting it down the middle seems silly.

MarcusOfLycia wrote:

Murray wrote: a true christian, who has the holy spirit within, can recognize a sin when he commits one. If a truley devout christian is a homosexual, but yet the holy spirit does not condem him it is either one of 2 things
1)he is ignoring the holy spirit telling him it is wrong
2)the holy spirit does not hate the sin of homosexuality

I have three responses to this. The first is:

a true christian, who has the holy spirit within, can recognize a sin when he commits one. If a truley devout christian is [disrespectful of his wife], but yet the holy spirit does not condem him it is either one of 2 things
1)he is ignoring the holy spirit telling him it is wrong
2)the holy spirit does not hate the sin of [treating your wife badly]

Through many times in our history and even today, men may treat their wives disrespectfully and be considered 'devout' Christians. They may even think themselves devout. God's standard is perfect, however, and no one is capable of attaining it on their own, regardless of whether their sin is lust, homosexuality, or not treating one's wife with the proper respect.

The second is: Lust is considered a sin, yet it is completely natural and some might even argue it is beneficial. Homosexuality therefor, could be either natural or artificial and it wouldn't matter: we have another sexual sin that is a sin despite its naturalness.

The third is what God Himself had to say about homosexuality:

Leviticus 20:13 says "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

And one of God's Apostles:

1st Corinthians 6:9 and 10 "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! The sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, passive homosexual partners, practicing homosexuals, For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers and sisters, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they were all drinking from the spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ. But God was not pleased with most of them, for they were cut down in the wilderness. These things happened as examples for us, so that we will not crave evil things as they did."

If you consider:
1. The sexually immoral
2. Idolaters
3. Adulterers
to be against God, then why not the rest of those mentioned there? I guess I don't quite understand why any of those things are wrong if homosexuality wouldn't be considered wrong. The standard can be embraced or rejected, but splitting it down the middle seems silly.

When I lust I know what I am doing and I know that it is wrong, Im sure folks who beat their wives know it is wrong, or are drunk when they do it. This is why the bible tells us to keep our minds sober, the holy spirit does not speak as clearly when we are under a foreign influence.

I’ve been reading through this debate and, regardless of the differing views on homosexuality, the one striking thing for me is that it has been debated without a shred of malice towards homosexuals themselves. It is striking not because it is unexpected or uncommon but because, as an example, it flies in the face of those who would like to accuse
Christians of ‘hating’ homosexuals and wanting them damned to hell for eternity.

God Bless you, brothers.

Murray wrote:

MarcusOfLycia wrote:

Murray wrote: a true christian, who has the holy spirit within, can recognize a sin when he commits one. If a truley devout christian is a homosexual, but yet the holy spirit does not condem him it is either one of 2 things
1)he is ignoring the holy spirit telling him it is wrong
2)the holy spirit does not hate the sin of homosexuality

I have three responses to this. The first is:

a true christian, who has the holy spirit within, can recognize a sin when he commits one. If a truley devout christian is [disrespectful of his wife], but yet the holy spirit does not condem him it is either one of 2 things
1)he is ignoring the holy spirit telling him it is wrong
2)the holy spirit does not hate the sin of [treating your wife badly]

Through many times in our history and even today, men may treat their wives disrespectfully and be considered 'devout' Christians. They may even think themselves devout. God's standard is perfect, however, and no one is capable of attaining it on their own, regardless of whether their sin is lust, homosexuality, or not treating one's wife with the proper respect.

The second is: Lust is considered a sin, yet it is completely natural and some might even argue it is beneficial. Homosexuality therefor, could be either natural or artificial and it wouldn't matter: we have another sexual sin that is a sin despite its naturalness.

The third is what God Himself had to say about homosexuality:

Leviticus 20:13 says "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

And one of God's Apostles:

1st Corinthians 6:9 and 10 "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! The sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, passive homosexual partners, practicing homosexuals, For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers and sisters, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they were all drinking from the spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ. But God was not pleased with most of them, for they were cut down in the wilderness. These things happened as examples for us, so that we will not crave evil things as they did."

If you consider:
1. The sexually immoral
2. Idolaters
3. Adulterers
to be against God, then why not the rest of those mentioned there? I guess I don't quite understand why any of those things are wrong if homosexuality wouldn't be considered wrong. The standard can be embraced or rejected, but splitting it down the middle seems silly.

When I lust I know what I am doing and I know that it is wrong, Im sure folks who beat their wives know it is wrong, or are drunk when they do it. This is why the bible tells us to keep our minds sober, the holy spirit does not speak as clearly when we are under a foreign influence.

If my mind is sober and I read:

"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! The sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, passive homosexual partners, practicing homosexuals, For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers and sisters, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they were all drinking from the spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ. But God was not pleased with most of them, for they were cut down in the wilderness. These things happened as examples for us, so that we will not crave evil things as they did."

I'm probably going to think that homosexuality is wrong. It doesn't really matter what we think since we didn't make the rules. The one thing that stands about about people regardless of the sin they are in (and I know this because I am great at sinning myself) is that we have an enormous natural talent for justifying our sin and feeling righteous at the same time. That's why I don't trust my 'sober mind'. I have to trust God's.

MarcusOfLycia wrote:

Murray wrote:

MarcusOfLycia wrote:

Murray wrote: a true christian, who has the holy spirit within, can recognize a sin when he commits one. If a truley devout christian is a homosexual, but yet the holy spirit does not condem him it is either one of 2 things
1)he is ignoring the holy spirit telling him it is wrong
2)the holy spirit does not hate the sin of homosexuality

I have three responses to this. The first is:

a true christian, who has the holy spirit within, can recognize a sin when he commits one. If a truley devout christian is [disrespectful of his wife], but yet the holy spirit does not condem him it is either one of 2 things
1)he is ignoring the holy spirit telling him it is wrong
2)the holy spirit does not hate the sin of [treating your wife badly]

Through many times in our history and even today, men may treat their wives disrespectfully and be considered 'devout' Christians. They may even think themselves devout. God's standard is perfect, however, and no one is capable of attaining it on their own, regardless of whether their sin is lust, homosexuality, or not treating one's wife with the proper respect.

The second is: Lust is considered a sin, yet it is completely natural and some might even argue it is beneficial. Homosexuality therefor, could be either natural or artificial and it wouldn't matter: we have another sexual sin that is a sin despite its naturalness.

The third is what God Himself had to say about homosexuality:

Leviticus 20:13 says "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

And one of God's Apostles:

1st Corinthians 6:9 and 10 "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! The sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, passive homosexual partners, practicing homosexuals, For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers and sisters, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they were all drinking from the spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ. But God was not pleased with most of them, for they were cut down in the wilderness. These things happened as examples for us, so that we will not crave evil things as they did."

If you consider:
1. The sexually immoral
2. Idolaters
3. Adulterers
to be against God, then why not the rest of those mentioned there? I guess I don't quite understand why any of those things are wrong if homosexuality wouldn't be considered wrong. The standard can be embraced or rejected, but splitting it down the middle seems silly.

When I lust I know what I am doing and I know that it is wrong, Im sure folks who beat their wives know it is wrong, or are drunk when they do it. This is why the bible tells us to keep our minds sober, the holy spirit does not speak as clearly when we are under a foreign influence.

If my mind is sober and I read:

"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! The sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, passive homosexual partners, practicing homosexuals, For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers and sisters, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they were all drinking from the spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ. But God was not pleased with most of them, for they were cut down in the wilderness. These things happened as examples for us, so that we will not crave evil things as they did."

I'm probably going to think that homosexuality is wrong. It doesn't really matter what we think since we didn't make the rules. The one thing that stands about about people regardless of the sin they are in (and I know this because I am great at sinning myself) is that we have an enormous natural talent for justifying our sin and feeling righteous at the same time. That's why I don't trust my 'sober mind'. I have to trust God's.

As a Christian could you murder with a clean conscience? Could you even contemplate it with a clean conscience? The answer should be no. While we do attempt to justify our sins at time, deep down the Holy Spirit does tell us it’s wrong. We know it’s wrong. Every time I sin I hear that nagging voice saying "you’re better than that". Now, let me lay out a scenario. George has killed a man, George is a Christian, and now George knows what he did was wrong but he tries endlessly to justify it, George eventually after months of ignoring the guilt justifies it. Now, note how George hears the spirit telling him it is wrong to justify it, but notice how he keeps tying to justify it, this is not what we as Christians should do. George should have 1) admitted what he did was wrong, regardless of circumstance, he admits he did sin. 2)George repents in front of god and beg for forgiveness 3) Although George still lives with the terrible reality that he did kill, he is now as peace with himself, instead of eating him self alive trying to justify it.

Now I suppose the main argument against gay Christians is that over time they do justify it, but we will never know that will we?

I don't like repeatedly posting things... but you haven't responded to the Apostle yet:

"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! The sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, passive homosexual partners, practicing homosexuals, For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers and sisters, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they were all drinking from the spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ. But God was not pleased with most of them, for they were cut down in the wilderness. These things happened as examples for us, so that we will not crave evil things as they did."

As I said before, it doesn't matter at all what we think is right or not. Go back two thousand years and things we consider horrible today were not considered wrong at all by pagan groups. The point is, while having a conscience is evidence of higher law, it isn't a fool proof method of determining it.

I'm also not saying that you will be suddenly no longer a Christian if you are a homosexual. I was trying to say that it is just immoral just like lust and adultery and all other sorts of things that not everyone considers 'wrong', but God does.

^

and I will say again we live by grace not by laws. Romans 6:15

Laws are in grace, but grace is what convictes us of right and wrong. We are not to violate our laws given to us by grace, so i other words, go against your holy conscience

Now I suppose the main argument against gay Christians is that over time they do justify it, but we will never know that will we?

The main argument in my mind, isn't against what you call "gay Christians". My argument is that you just seem to justify homosexual behavior because your pastor says it's ok, and because we're not living under the same law that Israel was under.

You don't seem to understand when everyone explains from the bible that homosexual sin is wrong just like any other sexual sin outside of a God ordained marriage.

Since you won't listen to us, why don't you try seriously devoting some time praying about this matter. If it is an issue that is this important to you, and you are open, God will show you.

RickD wrote:

Now I suppose the main argument against gay Christians is that over time they do justify it, but we will never know that will we?

The main argument in my mind, isn't against what you call "gay Christians". My argument is that you just seem to justify homosexual behavior because your pastor says it's ok, and because we're not living under the same law that Israel was under.

You don't seem to understand when everyone explains from the bible that homosexual sin is wrong just like any other sexual sin outside of a God ordained marriage.

Since you won't listen to us, why don't you try seriously devoting some time praying about this matter. If it is an issue that is this important to you, and you are open, God will show you.

no no no

My pastor never once said it was ok, Ill give you the exact link to the sermon so you can listen for your self, very good speaker, im sure you'll love him, it is most definatly worth your time to listen to. Maybe you will get something different out of it then me....

http://ebenezerumc.org/worship/sermons

It is the first sermon on the list, title is "making good decisions" its about maye 20 mins long, but time flys. please take the time to listen, its very good