Two North American presuppositional apologists demolish...

[domokunrox]

Btw, to further support my claim.

In Mark 15:34

Did God hate Jesus or love Jesus?

Give it some real thought, folks.

[DannyM]

Danny, when we say neighbor, we are talking about the definition I underlined above: " any person in need of one’s help or kindness (after biblical use):love thy neighbor as thyself" is the correct definition for our context.

Yes, and that's exactly what I said!

You are talking about help and kindness in a material or physical sense

I am commenting on the passage you quoted! I’m not merely talking about the physical aspect of kindness at all.

The only difference, is in this instance with Jim and Alex, is that I'm talking about help and kindness in a spiritual sense (help to see they need Christ) as well as the "good samaritan" type of help and kindness. I'm not sure how you can make the distinction between showing help and kindness, only in the sense of the good samaritan, and not showing help and kindness, when it comes to speaking with an atheist. Does scripture make the distinction?

You’re the one who gave the example of the good Samaritan, Rick.

Danny, in this verse, do you believe God is saying that He hated Esau, in this sense:"feel intense or passionate dislike for (someone)"?
Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." Romans 9:13

Or, does hated mean: "loved less than, or to a different degree"?

I believe what the text says, Rick.

Tell me, Rick, do you believe that God loves every man head for head?

Again, Danny, are you seeing this: 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. Galatians 5:22-23

And how do you know that this does not produce in me? Are you really making such an assumption because I said I hate those who hate my Lord?

And, are you seeing that what you wrote here -
doesn't line up with Galatians 5:22-23? How are you missing this?

Because there is nothing to miss, there is no mystery. I’m quite sure the fruits of the Spirit manifests in me in many aspects of my life.

[DannyM]

Danny wrote:

John, I agree that God does not experience hate in human terms. My hate is a sinner's hate; it is unrighteous, it is crass, and it is unworthy of God's name. God's hate is not an experience in the sense that it is a new experience; but God does have have a hate for some. This is nothing 'new' to God, and His omnipotence and omniscience remain untroubled. Unless the passages I've given can be explained in some other way, then I'm not sure how else to view this.

Danny, I think the passages can be explained in another way. I'll see if I can properly express what I mean.

God's hate is not an experience in the sense that it is a new experience; but God does have have a hate for some.

Does God really have a "hate'' for some?

Yes.

Or does God love some to a different degree than others? We as Christians, will know the fullness of God's love, in eternity with Him. Those who, by ultimately rejecting God, spend eternity apart from God's love, don't experience the fullness of God's love, and are therefore, loved less. Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." Romans 9:13

Rick, this commentary projects its own interpretation onto the text. If that’s what you really believe, then you are free to do so. But I’ll stick with the text as it is if it’s all the same to you, Bro.

[Silvertusk]

Another point to add is that Christian Doctorine always stated that God is Omni Benevolent as well otherwise why do atheists always throw the problem of evil at us - stating that if God is all loving then how can evil exist. Surely our answer can't be that it is because God really hates some people!!!

Silvertusk.

[DannyM]

I don't think most here know this expression of "tough love". It applies very well here. Typically I dislike being told to quote verses or being told "prove it" for what is fundamentally Christian.

If you can not use your Bible as an authority then you are intellectually lost.

Danny, it is a severe problem to use a "shock" comment on what is essentially no passion. Again, these comments will not bring anyone to Christ. Not because its wrong, but because even the layman or non-theist can quote clear contradictions. This kind of comments again will make the truth and good news look bi-polar.

What contradictions, dom?

It is the equivalent of going to a concert event to witness to people with signs stating "God hates you sinners" and "You're going to burn in hell"

No it’s not, because no-one is saying “God hates you” to anybody. I do not know whom God hates, so my apologetic is unsullied by such discrimination.

You asked me to show you how you are being a relativist. Danny, I am an expert on spotting these things. I go to battle with the truth against these ideas too often. It only confirms itself all too well when you state Calvinist idea support.

Then I can tell you that I am not a relativist, and nothing I have said says I am.

Calvinists are loathed for a very good reason, Danny. I see the philosophical differences as a severe problem. Christian philosophy can NEVER be compatible with anything else and clearly isn't. However, Calvinism makes Spinoza ethics completely rational in infinitism. Which in turn concludes rational pantheism and relativism.

Can you expand on this please.

You basically give the enemy 2 pieces of viable ammo to use against Christianity. Relativism and Pluralism via the infinite.

Please expand on this, too.

I strongly suggest Wesleyan theology to you instead.

No thanks.

That is far better then being a walking contradiction.

Again, you are saying stuff here without a single argument to back it up. Please identify the contradiction. Remember, I’m not saying God loves all men and hates some men. God does not love all men. I’ve prepared another post giving evidence of this. I’m loathe to use it if no-one else is providing Scriptural support, but if the assertion that God loves all men head for head continues without support from our Bible then I’ll post it.

God bless, Bro

[RickD]

Danny, there's been a lot to take in here. And I think I need to reiterate that I'm having a difficult time with your response to what I posted here:
I said:

We need to be a witness to unbelievers to who the real God is. Not the only god they know from their experience. Christians are supposed to have a real love for all people, not a love for feeling sanctimonious, by proving unbelievers wrong. Where us the love in that?

Your response:

Where am I told to love arrogant, autonomous man? I don’t love atheists, Rick. Do you really love these people? I love whom I love and I love Christ and those in Christ. God doesn’t even love all people, Rick, so how do you think I should fair against such competition?

Danny I want to make it clear I'm not calling into question, your faith, salvation, or even that you aren't manifesting the fruit of the spirit. All I'm trying to do is understand your above response to my post. I'm going to address your points as I can.

[DannyM]

Danny I want to make it clear I'm not calling into question, your faith, salvation, or even that you aren't manifesting the fruit of the spirit. All I'm trying to do is understand your above response to my post. I'm going to address your points as I can.

Rick, I know you're not, Bro.

Look, I like to get people's blood going in order to spark a good debate. And what a topic we have here! It doesn't mean I'm lying, as I do hate those who hate our Lord. But the hate is not laced with venom, foaming at the mouth or an " 'ang 'em from the nearest tree" attitude.

Why wouldn't God's righteous love for a child turn to a righteous hate for somebody who horribly abused that child?

I would like to see the Scritural and/or logical objection to this.

Questions to ponder:

1. Can God's love fail?

2. What can separate us from God's love?

[jlay]

Before I go and address the biblical passages put forward regarding me and how I should behave, are we all agreed that God can and does experience hate?

Obviously, there are some very different positions. It would seem, as best I can tell, that BW and I agree. Byb and Rick agree, and you are out on an island alone. Nevertheless, we do also agree on some elements. We would all agree that God is love. Although I'm not sure we all agree on just what that 'love' means. (Rom. 5:8) BW and myself agree that God can and does exhibit hate, and that this does not conflict with the fact that God is love. In fact God's word commands us to hate evil. Hatred of evil is a byproduct of perfect love. Only God is capable of a righteous hate, because all His actions are just and sourced out of Him being love. Just think of love as the sun. The sun is a massive ball of buring energy. If something gets too close to the sun, it will be obliterated. Why? The nature of the sun. God is love, and that love also is in perfect harmony with Him being a consuming fire, and something a sinner does not want to fall into the hands of. Anything that conflicts with the nature of God (love) will be consumed. (hated)
Just as our love is often imperfect so is our hate. It is easy to dismiss hate as wrong, based on man's hateful actions. But we don't do that with love when trying to understand that God is love. That said, I don't think you are going to get Rick to agree with the statement above. In fact, I don't agree with it based on one word. Experience. God 'experiencing' hate communicates too me, that God is not unchanging, but reactive. I reject that.

As far as hate being anthropomorphic, that doesn't mean that God's anger burning, or his hatred of lying lips is not real. Not anymore than anthropmorphic descriptions of His wisdom or any other trait. Candidly? Sounds like a cop out. Something conflict with your claims? Uhh, anthropomorphic!!!! Come on.

Danny, regarding contradictions. I made a post a while back addressing this, and you seem to have gone right by it, without comment.


If we take Romans 5:8 we can do a little examination. Scripture says that God hates all who do wrong. Scrpture says that all sin (do wrong) and fall short of the glory of God. And it says that God demonstrates His love for us in this, that while we were still sinners (wrong doers, hated by God) Christ died for us. THis would be consistent with Christ commanding others to love their enemies. A notion confirmed by the apostle Paul. And I think the only postions that properly and consistently handles the scripture.

[DannyM]

Before I go and address the biblical passages put forward regarding me and how I should behave, are we all agreed that God can and does experience hate?

Obviously, there are some very different positions. It would seem, as best I can tell, that BW and I agree. Byb and Rick agree, and you are out on an island alone. Nevertheless, we do also agree on some elements. We would all agree that God is love. Although I'm not sure we all agree on just what that 'love' means. (Rom. 5:8) BW and myself agree that God can and does exhibit hate, and that this does not conflict with the fact that God is love. In fact God's word commands us to hate evil. Hatred of evil is a byproduct of perfect love. Only God is capable of a righteous hate, because all His actions are just and sourced out of Him being love. Just think of love as the sun. The sun is a massive ball of buring energy. If something gets too close to the sun, it will be obliterated. Why? The nature of the sun. God is love, and that love also is in perfect harmony with Him being a consuming fire, and something a sinner does not want to fall into the hands of. Anything that conflicts with the nature of God (love) will be consumed. (hated)
Just as our love is often imperfect so is our hate. It is easy to dismiss hate as wrong, based on man's hateful actions. But we don't do that with love when trying to understand that God is love. That said, I don't think you are going to get Rick to agree with the statement above. In fact, I don't agree with it based on one word. Experience. God 'experiencing' hate communicates too me, that God is not unchanging, but reactive. I reject that.

As far as hate being anthropomorphic, that doesn't mean that God's anger burning, or his hatred of lying lips is not real. Not anymore than anthropmorphic descriptions of His wisdom or any other trait. Candidly? Sounds like a cop out. Something conflict with your claims? Uhh, anthropomorphic!!!! Come on.

Danny, regarding contradictions. I made a post a while back addressing this, and you seem to have gone right by it, without comment.


If we take Romans 5:8 we can do a little examination. Scripture says that God hates all who do wrong. Scrpture says that all sin (do wrong) and fall short of the glory of God. And it says that God demonstrates His love for us in this, that while we were still sinners (wrong doers, hated by God) Christ died for us.

J, I have to go out, have an appointment at the Job Centre - how depressing is that! Not sure what I've missed from you...didn't I answer the "God must hate me" objection? Where you dared me to apply this to my life? God loves me, evident by His saving me. I am in Christ now, and it is not I that sins. I'll elaborate later, and will answer your post more fully, but I think you know what I'm saying.

[RickD]

This post is what I'm questioning. Everything I'm commenting on refers back to how it is reconciled with this post.

Where am I told to love arrogant, autonomous man? I don’t love atheists, Rick. Do you really love these people? I love whom I love and I love Christ and those in Christ. God doesn’t even love all people, Rick, so how do you think I should fair against such competition?

RickD wrote:Danny, when we say neighbor, we are talking about the definition I underlined above: " any person in need of one’s help or kindness (after biblical use):love thy neighbor as thyself" is the correct definition for our context.



Yes, and that's exactly what I said!

I know you said that, Danny, but your post I'm having trouble with, seems to me that you're excluding "spiritual help", and kindness to the lost. Specifically Alex and Jim et al.

RickD wrote: You are talking about help and kindness in a material or physical sense



I am commenting on the passage you quoted! I’m not merely talking about the physical aspect of kindness at all.

Then how does that reconcile with your post that I'm questioning?

RickD wrote:Danny, in this verse, do you believe God is saying that He hated Esau, in this sense:"feel intense or passionate dislike for (someone)"?
Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." Romans 9:13

Or, does hated mean: "loved less than, or to a different degree"?



I believe what the text says, Rick.

Tell me, Rick, do you believe that God loves every man head for head?

Danny, what text? The text in English, or the text in the Greek, translated from Hebrew? I think in this case, "hate" as translated into English, isn't a great translation. The English word for hate, doesn't hit the mark, as I've tried to show by saying it is closer to " loved less", or "loved to a different degree". And I don't know what you mean by "head for head". Sorry.

RickD wrote:Again, Danny, are you seeing this: 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. Galatians 5:22-23



And how do you know that this does not produce in me? Are you really making such an assumption because I said I hate those who hate my Lord

Danny, I'm certainly not making that assumption. I'm just pointing out how this post by you:

Where am I told to love arrogant, autonomous man? I don’t love atheists, Rick. Do you really love these people? I love whom I love and I love Christ and those in Christ. God doesn’t even love all people, Rick, so how do you think I should fair against such competition?

doesn't match up to this:

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. Galatians 5:22-23

You still haven't addressed that apparent inconsistency, that I'm showing you.

And, when you say "I hate those who hate my Lord", are you saying it's the kind of hate you talked about here?:

My hate is a sinner's hate; it is unrighteous, it is crass, and it is unworthy of God's name.

It is the equivalent of going to a concert event to witness to people with signs stating "God hates you sinners" and "You're going to burn in hell"



No it’s not, because no-one is saying “God hates you” to anybody. I do not know whom God hates, so my apologetic is unsullied by such discrimination

Danny, aren't you effectively saying you do know who God hates, by saying this:

Where am I told to love arrogant, autonomous man? I don’t love atheists, Rick. Do you really love these people? I love whom I love and I love Christ and those in Christ. God doesn’t even love all people, Rick, so how do you think I should fair against such competition?

Danny, from what I know about those who are against Calvinism, is that Calvinism doesn't have a basis for "loving the unsaved". Calvinism has been faulted for its lack of love. And that's what I'm seeing in the post in question. A sort of Calvinistic, "lack of love". I'm not saying that YOU have a lack of love, just that your post makes it seem that way. What I'm seeing as a lack of love in the post, is where my whole problem here, stems from.

[RickD]

Danny, you posted this:

Why wouldn't God's righteous love for a child turn to a righteous hate for somebody who horribly abused that child?

Because God is unchanging, and He knew that the person was going to abuse the child, before he ever abused the child. God doesn't have an emotional reaction to child abuse like we do, Danny. Just like jlay said, God doesn't have "ebb and flo" emotions.

I would like to see the Scritural and/or logical objection to this.

Questions to ponder:

1. Can God's love fail?

2. What can separate us from God's love?

I'll try to give the logical.
1. No. But that doesn't change the fact that every human doesn't accept what God did out of love.


And scriptural.
2. Nothing can separate "us", as "us" meaning the true children of God, from the full experience of God's love.
Romans 8:38-39
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I'm not sure if you're looking for something deeper than that though, Danny.

[DannyM]

Rick,

You keep quoting me with the same post. And |I keep replying.

Yes, I hate those who hate my God.

No, I don't know whom God hates, hence further proof that my hate is not laced with venom. I love all my Brothers and Sisters in christ. Do I know who they all are? No.

I've said repeatedly that my compassion is not lost.

[RickD]

jlay wrote:

Obviously, there are some very different positions. It would seem, as best I can tell, that BW and I agree. Byb and Rick agree, and you are out on an island alone.

Jlay, I'm not sure I'm necessarily disagreeing with you on certain things. I just don't understand some of what you and B.W. are saying.

BW and myself agree that God can and does exhibit hate, and that this does not conflict with the fact that God is love. In fact God's word commands us to hate evil. Hatred of evil is a byproduct of perfect love. Only God is capable of a righteous hate, because all His actions are just and sourced out of Him being love.

I don't disagree with this. I have no problem with what the bible says about hating evil. I'm just questioning that "hate" means the same thing, in all contexts.

Just as our love is often imperfect so is our hate. It is easy to dismiss hate as wrong, based on man's hateful actions. But we don't do that with love when trying to understand that God is love.

I don't disagree with this either. Aren't we called to love unbelievers with the love of God, as best we can, while being led by the Holy Spirit? There is nothing wrong, IMO, with Godly hate. But there is something extremely wrong with ungodly hate, as shown by the Westboro Baptist Church. That was my point about Danny's post. That it looks no different to me than the kind of hate spewed by WBC.

In fact, I don't agree with it based on one word. Experience. God 'experiencing' hate communicates too me, that God is not unchanging, but reactive. I reject that.

And, that's my point, as well.

As far as hate being anthropomorphic, that doesn't mean that God's anger burning, or his hatred of lying lips is not real. Not anymore than anthropmorphic descriptions of His wisdom or any other trait. Candidly? Sounds like a cop out. Something conflict with your claims? Uhh, anthropomorphic!!!! Come on.

I'm not saying that, jlay. Wow, I really need to take some communications classes. I'm saying that anthropopathism, shows that "hate", for example, is saying that in order for humans to understand God's "hate" He needs to communicate the meaning in human terms. I'm saying our human meaning of "hate" doesn't mean exactly what God means by "hate".

[RickD]

Rick,

You keep quoting me with the same post. And |I keep replying.

Yes, I hate those who hate my God.

No, I don't know whom God hates, hence further proof that my hate is not laced with venom. I love all my Brothers and Sisters in christ. Do I know who they all are? No.

I've said repeatedly that my compassion is not lost.

Danny, the problem is that I don't see you saying that while you" hate those who hate my God", I don't see you saying that you are loving them as well. Like Matthew 22:39 says we should.

If you don't know who God hates, then how are you making the assumption that God hates Jim and Alex? How do you know that Jim or Alex aren't the 21st century "Saul of Tarsus"?

I can't see how you are deciding who to love. How do you know who is a brother or sister in Christ? How do you know if someone you believe is a brother or sister, is not an Apostate? Then, by your beliefs, God would hate them.
That's why "love thy neighbor" means ALL we encounter. Believers AND unbelievers.

[DannyM]

Because God is unchanging, and He knew that the person was going to abuse the child, before he ever abused the child. God doesn't have an emotional reaction to child abuse like we do, Danny.

Rick, perhaps it is my use of limited everyday language, like “turn to”, that is confusing, I apologise, but I am not saying it is a sudden expression. God’s righteous love for a child would ‘include’ a righteous hatred for the wicked man that horribly abuses that child. This hatred does not suddenly ’hit’ God out of leftfield.

1. No. But that doesn't change the fact that every human doesn't accept what God did out of love.

God is love in Himself. Outside of Himself, God’s love is not dependent upon His creation. The Father loves the Son; the Son loves Father. God doesn’t need the creature in order to be love; God is love. God SO loved the world that He gave His only Son. The love God has for us is so great that he gave His only begotten Son, that we may have eternal life. This is the greatest conceivable love; it is omnipotent, irresistible and unbreakable.

And scriptural.
2. Nothing can separate "us", as "us" meaning the true children of God, from the full experience of God's love.
Romans 8:38-39
New American Standard Bible (NASB)

So is the perfect love of God somehow imperfect when not applied to “us”?

38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Indeed. God’s love is infallible. Nothing in the entire universe can separate us from God.