"The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands." (Psalm 19:1)
https://discussions.godandscience.org/
Yes, and that's exactly what I said!RickD wrote:Danny, when we say neighbor, we are talking about the definition I underlined above: " any person in need of one’s help or kindness (after biblical use):love thy neighbor as thyself" is the correct definition for our context.
I am commenting on the passage you quoted! I’m not merely talking about the physical aspect of kindness at all.RickD wrote: You are talking about help and kindness in a material or physical sense
You’re the one who gave the example of the good Samaritan, Rick.RickD wrote:The only difference, is in this instance with Jim and Alex, is that I'm talking about help and kindness in a spiritual sense (help to see they need Christ) as well as the "good samaritan" type of help and kindness. I'm not sure how you can make the distinction between showing help and kindness, only in the sense of the good samaritan, and not showing help and kindness, when it comes to speaking with an atheist. Does scripture make the distinction?
I believe what the text says, Rick.RickD wrote:Danny, in this verse, do you believe God is saying that He hated Esau, in this sense:"feel intense or passionate dislike for (someone)"?
Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." Romans 9:13
Or, does hated mean: "loved less than, or to a different degree"?
And how do you know that this does not produce in me? Are you really making such an assumption because I said I hate those who hate my Lord?RickD wrote:Again, Danny, are you seeing this: 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. Galatians 5:22-23
Because there is nothing to miss, there is no mystery. I’m quite sure the fruits of the Spirit manifests in me in many aspects of my life.RickD wrote:And, are you seeing that what you wrote here -
doesn't line up with Galatians 5:22-23? How are you missing this?
Yes.RickD wrote:Danny wrote:Danny, I think the passages can be explained in another way. I'll see if I can properly express what I mean.John, I agree that God does not experience hate in human terms. My hate is a sinner's hate; it is unrighteous, it is crass, and it is unworthy of God's name. God's hate is not an experience in the sense that it is a new experience; but God does have have a hate for some. This is nothing 'new' to God, and His omnipotence and omniscience remain untroubled. Unless the passages I've given can be explained in some other way, then I'm not sure how else to view this.
Does God really have a "hate'' for some?God's hate is not an experience in the sense that it is a new experience; but God does have have a hate for some.
Rick, this commentary projects its own interpretation onto the text. If that’s what you really believe, then you are free to do so. But I’ll stick with the text as it is if it’s all the same to you, Bro.Or does God love some to a different degree than others? We as Christians, will know the fullness of God's love, in eternity with Him. Those who, by ultimately rejecting God, spend eternity apart from God's love, don't experience the fullness of God's love, and are therefore, loved less. Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." Romans 9:13
If you can not use your Bible as an authority then you are intellectually lost.domokunrox wrote:I don't think most here know this expression of "tough love". It applies very well here. Typically I dislike being told to quote verses or being told "prove it" for what is fundamentally Christian.
What contradictions, dom?Danny, it is a severe problem to use a "shock" comment on what is essentially no passion. Again, these comments will not bring anyone to Christ. Not because its wrong, but because even the layman or non-theist can quote clear contradictions. This kind of comments again will make the truth and good news look bi-polar.
No it’s not, because no-one is saying “God hates you” to anybody. I do not know whom God hates, so my apologetic is unsullied by such discrimination.It is the equivalent of going to a concert event to witness to people with signs stating "God hates you sinners" and "You're going to burn in hell"
Then I can tell you that I am not a relativist, and nothing I have said says I am.You asked me to show you how you are being a relativist. Danny, I am an expert on spotting these things. I go to battle with the truth against these ideas too often. It only confirms itself all too well when you state Calvinist idea support.
Can you expand on this please.Calvinists are loathed for a very good reason, Danny. I see the philosophical differences as a severe problem. Christian philosophy can NEVER be compatible with anything else and clearly isn't. However, Calvinism makes Spinoza ethics completely rational in infinitism. Which in turn concludes rational pantheism and relativism.
Please expand on this, too.You basically give the enemy 2 pieces of viable ammo to use against Christianity. Relativism and Pluralism via the infinite.
No thanks.I strongly suggest Wesleyan theology to you instead.
Again, you are saying stuff here without a single argument to back it up. Please identify the contradiction. Remember, I’m not saying God loves all men and hates some men. God does not love all men. I’ve prepared another post giving evidence of this. I’m loathe to use it if no-one else is providing Scriptural support, but if the assertion that God loves all men head for head continues without support from our Bible then I’ll post it.That is far better then being a walking contradiction.
Your response:We need to be a witness to unbelievers to who the real God is. Not the only god they know from their experience. Christians are supposed to have a real love for all people, not a love for feeling sanctimonious, by proving unbelievers wrong. Where us the love in that?
Danny I want to make it clear I'm not calling into question, your faith, salvation, or even that you aren't manifesting the fruit of the spirit. All I'm trying to do is understand your above response to my post. I'm going to address your points as I can.Where am I told to love arrogant, autonomous man? I don’t love atheists, Rick. Do you really love these people? I love whom I love and I love Christ and those in Christ. God doesn’t even love all people, Rick, so how do you think I should fair against such competition?
Rick, I know you're not, Bro.RickD wrote:Danny I want to make it clear I'm not calling into question, your faith, salvation, or even that you aren't manifesting the fruit of the spirit. All I'm trying to do is understand your above response to my post. I'm going to address your points as I can.
Obviously, there are some very different positions. It would seem, as best I can tell, that BW and I agree. Byb and Rick agree, and you are out on an island alone.Before I go and address the biblical passages put forward regarding me and how I should behave, are we all agreed that God can and does experience hate?
Nevertheless, we do also agree on some elements. We would all agree that God is love. Although I'm not sure we all agree on just what that 'love' means. (Rom. 5:8) BW and myself agree that God can and does exhibit hate, and that this does not conflict with the fact that God is love. In fact God's word commands us to hate evil. Hatred of evil is a byproduct of perfect love. Only God is capable of a righteous hate, because all His actions are just and sourced out of Him being love. Just think of love as the sun. The sun is a massive ball of buring energy. If something gets too close to the sun, it will be obliterated. Why? The nature of the sun. God is love, and that love also is in perfect harmony with Him being a consuming fire, and something a sinner does not want to fall into the hands of. Anything that conflicts with the nature of God (love) will be consumed. (hated) J, I have to go out, have an appointment at the Job Centre - how depressing is that! Not sure what I've missed from you...didn't I answer the "God must hate me" objection? Where you dared me to apply this to my life? God loves me, evident by His saving me. I am in Christ now, and it is not I that sins. I'll elaborate later, and will answer your post more fully, but I think you know what I'm saying.jlay wrote:Obviously, there are some very different positions. It would seem, as best I can tell, that BW and I agree. Byb and Rick agree, and you are out on an island alone.Before I go and address the biblical passages put forward regarding me and how I should behave, are we all agreed that God can and does experience hate?
Just as our love is often imperfect so is our hate. It is easy to dismiss hate as wrong, based on man's hateful actions. But we don't do that with love when trying to understand that God is love. That said, I don't think you are going to get Rick to agree with the statement above. In fact, I don't agree with it based on one word. Experience. God 'experiencing' hate communicates too me, that God is not unchanging, but reactive. I reject that.
As far as hate being anthropomorphic, that doesn't mean that God's anger burning, or his hatred of lying lips is not real. Not anymore than anthropmorphic descriptions of His wisdom or any other trait. Candidly? Sounds like a cop out. Something conflict with your claims? Uhh, anthropomorphic!!!! Come on.
Danny, regarding contradictions. I made a post a while back addressing this, and you seem to have gone right by it, without comment.
If we take Romans 5:8 we can do a little examination. Scripture says that God hates all who do wrong. Scrpture says that all sin (do wrong) and fall short of the glory of God. And it says that God demonstrates His love for us in this, that while we were still sinners (wrong doers, hated by God) Christ died for us.
Where am I told to love arrogant, autonomous man? I don’t love atheists, Rick. Do you really love these people? I love whom I love and I love Christ and those in Christ. God doesn’t even love all people, Rick, so how do you think I should fair against such competition?
I know you said that, Danny, but your post I'm having trouble with, seems to me that you're excluding "spiritual help", and kindness to the lost. Specifically Alex and Jim et al.RickD wrote:Danny, when we say neighbor, we are talking about the definition I underlined above: " any person in need of one’s help or kindness (after biblical use):love thy neighbor as thyself" is the correct definition for our context.
Yes, and that's exactly what I said!
Then how does that reconcile with your post that I'm questioning?RickD wrote: You are talking about help and kindness in a material or physical sense
I am commenting on the passage you quoted! I’m not merely talking about the physical aspect of kindness at all.
Danny, what text? The text in English, or the text in the Greek, translated from Hebrew? I think in this case, "hate" as translated into English, isn't a great translation. The English word for hate, doesn't hit the mark, as I've tried to show by saying it is closer to " loved less", or "loved to a different degree". And I don't know what you mean by "head for head". Sorry.RickD wrote:Danny, in this verse, do you believe God is saying that He hated Esau, in this sense:"feel intense or passionate dislike for (someone)"?
Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." Romans 9:13
Or, does hated mean: "loved less than, or to a different degree"?
I believe what the text says, Rick.
Tell me, Rick, do you believe that God loves every man head for head?
Danny, I'm certainly not making that assumption. I'm just pointing out how this post by you:RickD wrote:Again, Danny, are you seeing this: 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. Galatians 5:22-23
And how do you know that this does not produce in me? Are you really making such an assumption because I said I hate those who hate my Lord
doesn't match up to this:Where am I told to love arrogant, autonomous man? I don’t love atheists, Rick. Do you really love these people? I love whom I love and I love Christ and those in Christ. God doesn’t even love all people, Rick, so how do you think I should fair against such competition?
You still haven't addressed that apparent inconsistency, that I'm showing you.22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. Galatians 5:22-23
My hate is a sinner's hate; it is unrighteous, it is crass, and it is unworthy of God's name.
Danny, aren't you effectively saying you do know who God hates, by saying this:It is the equivalent of going to a concert event to witness to people with signs stating "God hates you sinners" and "You're going to burn in hell"
No it’s not, because no-one is saying “God hates you” to anybody. I do not know whom God hates, so my apologetic is unsullied by such discrimination
Danny, from what I know about those who are against Calvinism, is that Calvinism doesn't have a basis for "loving the unsaved". Calvinism has been faulted for its lack of love. And that's what I'm seeing in the post in question. A sort of Calvinistic, "lack of love". I'm not saying that YOU have a lack of love, just that your post makes it seem that way. What I'm seeing as a lack of love in the post, is where my whole problem here, stems from.Where am I told to love arrogant, autonomous man? I don’t love atheists, Rick. Do you really love these people? I love whom I love and I love Christ and those in Christ. God doesn’t even love all people, Rick, so how do you think I should fair against such competition?
Because God is unchanging, and He knew that the person was going to abuse the child, before he ever abused the child. God doesn't have an emotional reaction to child abuse like we do, Danny. Just like jlay said, God doesn't have "ebb and flo" emotions.Why wouldn't God's righteous love for a child turn to a righteous hate for somebody who horribly abused that child?
I'll try to give the logical.I would like to see the Scritural and/or logical objection to this.
Questions to ponder:
1. Can God's love fail?
2. What can separate us from God's love?
Jlay, I'm not sure I'm necessarily disagreeing with you on certain things. I just don't understand some of what you and B.W. are saying.Obviously, there are some very different positions. It would seem, as best I can tell, that BW and I agree. Byb and Rick agree, and you are out on an island alone.
I don't disagree with this. I have no problem with what the bible says about hating evil. I'm just questioning that "hate" means the same thing, in all contexts.BW and myself agree that God can and does exhibit hate, and that this does not conflict with the fact that God is love. In fact God's word commands us to hate evil. Hatred of evil is a byproduct of perfect love. Only God is capable of a righteous hate, because all His actions are just and sourced out of Him being love.
I don't disagree with this either. Aren't we called to love unbelievers with the love of God, as best we can, while being led by the Holy Spirit? There is nothing wrong, IMO, with Godly hate. But there is something extremely wrong with ungodly hate, as shown by the Westboro Baptist Church. That was my point about Danny's post. That it looks no different to me than the kind of hate spewed by WBC.Just as our love is often imperfect so is our hate. It is easy to dismiss hate as wrong, based on man's hateful actions. But we don't do that with love when trying to understand that God is love.
And, that's my point, as well.In fact, I don't agree with it based on one word. Experience. God 'experiencing' hate communicates too me, that God is not unchanging, but reactive. I reject that.
I'm not saying that, jlay. Wow, I really need to take some communications classes.As far as hate being anthropomorphic, that doesn't mean that God's anger burning, or his hatred of lying lips is not real. Not anymore than anthropmorphic descriptions of His wisdom or any other trait. Candidly? Sounds like a cop out. Something conflict with your claims? Uhh, anthropomorphic!!!! Come on.
I'm saying that anthropopathism, shows that "hate", for example, is saying that in order for humans to understand God's "hate" He needs to communicate the meaning in human terms. I'm saying our human meaning of "hate" doesn't mean exactly what God means by "hate".Danny, the problem is that I don't see you saying that while you" hate those who hate my God", I don't see you saying that you are loving them as well. Like Matthew 22:39 says we should.DannyM wrote:Rick,
You keep quoting me with the same post. And |I keep replying.
Yes, I hate those who hate my God.
No, I don't know whom God hates, hence further proof that my hate is not laced with venom. I love all my Brothers and Sisters in christ. Do I know who they all are? No.
I've said repeatedly that my compassion is not lost.
Rick, perhaps it is my use of limited everyday language, like “turn to”, that is confusing, I apologise, but I am not saying it is a sudden expression. God’s righteous love for a child would ‘include’ a righteous hatred for the wicked man that horribly abuses that child. This hatred does not suddenly ’hit’ God out of leftfield.RickD wrote:Because God is unchanging, and He knew that the person was going to abuse the child, before he ever abused the child. God doesn't have an emotional reaction to child abuse like we do, Danny.
God is love in Himself. Outside of Himself, God’s love is not dependent upon His creation. The Father loves the Son; the Son loves Father. God doesn’t need the creature in order to be love; God is love. God SO loved the world that He gave His only Son. The love God has for us is so great that he gave His only begotten Son, that we may have eternal life. This is the greatest conceivable love; it is omnipotent, irresistible and unbreakable.RickD wrote:1. No. But that doesn't change the fact that every human doesn't accept what God did out of love.
So is the perfect love of God somehow imperfect when not applied to “us”?RickD wrote: And scriptural.
2. Nothing can separate "us", as "us" meaning the true children of God, from the full experience of God's love.
Romans 8:38-39
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Indeed. God’s love is infallible. Nothing in the entire universe can separate us from God.RickD wrote: 38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.