Evidence for God from Science

August wrote:How could there have been Biblical and Godly prophets if God does not know the future?

Some people are good at guessing the future?

Philip wrote:Cet-To, this has become a straining of knats - a pointless dialogue.

My entire point is that God has no limitations as to what He CAN do (not in what He CHOOSES to do, but in what He has the ABILITY to do), outside of logical fallacies, sinful acts, and self-imposed constraints, and that there are NO limitations as to His knowledge of future things. No, we don't know how active God has been over eternity, but indications are that it is healthy speculation that He has been extremely active much of the time. And that may well mean multiple realities of created times. To say that God is unlimited in His ABILITIES (non sinful, non logical fallacies, non self imposed), means that all other things - including creating within other times and dimensions, are entirely reasonable to suppose he MIGHT have done.

Hmm i don't think its pointless i mean i think this is helpful criticism, better from a Christian than an Atheist huh , you can refine what you say so that when it does come to engaging with a non believer you will be more equipped.

Just because i don't agree with your conclusions and some statements doesn't mean its pointless it's good to engage with different ideas.

I don't think God can create other "times", tell me how would that work?

God bless!

I don't think God can create other "times", tell me how would that work?

Cet-To, why would you think there could be ANYTHING God couldn't do, as long as it is not a fallacy type of thing, or sinful, and IF He so desired to do it and it so pleased Him to do it?

Philip wrote:

I don't think God can create other "times", tell me how would that work?

Cet-To, why would you think there could be ANYTHING God couldn't do, as long as it is not a fallacy type of thing, or sinful, and IF He so desired to do it and it so pleased Him to do it?

Note my question it already shows why, because i think it is an illogical thing meaning impossible.

Remember what i said before about time - it's a logical effect from God's initial action or a created thing, it is created but not in the sense of a thing like you and i or the universe but rather like: God's initial action causes time to start out of a logical necessity - for the reason is that when temporality or time began then timely tenses can be used in constructing a logical sentence or thought unlike when God was timeless since being timeless means not being in time or experiencing a passage of time then it would not make any sense at all to say "this happened before or this will happen" since this would be attributing time passage or tenses to something timeless which is a clear cut contradiction. Which is why God is timeless Without creation or Without the initial act and is temporal Since creation or Since the initial act. So time is not a thing, once time starts (which merely means being able to logically use tenses) it is a universal effect on reality and on logic.

God bless.

Cet-To, you are referring to philosophical views on time. And I would well agree with what William Lane Craig says: "Thus, the proper understanding of God, time, and eternity would be that God exists changelessly and timelessly prior to creation and in time after creation." And the "in time" after creation would included relationships to His creatures and the creation.

Is time a thing or a relationship measurement? No, it's not a thing. But what is certain, is that our "time," our AGE, has a specific sequence, as it includes a beginning to OUR universe (in which we live in), and that God tells us that it had a beginning and that it will have an end. And that what comes after will be eternal for us. God talks of and references time SEQUENCES. Time, for us, is then a measurement between relationships of sequences of events. All of these objective events are real and have a real sequence. God says they do. So, as God created OUR universe, that moves forward in a sequence, who is to say He has not done this before, that He hasn't created all necessary to other universes of creatures and events - which also had beginnings and perhaps endings? My house has many closets, God's MAY have created many and UNCONNECTED universes. A Potter may create many creations. No one knows for sure.

So, let's put it a better way, that God may well have created other "sequences of events" and other universes - that were independently created (and unconnected), that may still exist or not. We just have no way of knowing. We the finite are pondering the ALWAYS-existing God.

But what really matters is that God is not subject to anything He creates - unless He Himself puts limits upon Himself or His very nature cannot do (sin) or that is physically impossible (square circles).

CeT-To wrote:Timeless is without time by definition, without the experience of passage of time... i think though you have Eternal in mind, would that be right? Since you can be go from timeless to temporal and still be everlasting eternal.

No it’s not. Timeless simply means not affected by the passage of time. It can also mean eternal, perpetual, everlasting, endless. Where are you getting "without time" from?

CeT-To wrote:I think you are seeing time as a merely physical dimension which it isn't

I’m not. Time isn’t a thing. God is simply outside of our measurements of time. God is non-linear, and we simply perceive things 'linearly'. God is both immanent and transcendent. LOL I think your concept of God is wholly inadequate, bro.

CeT-To wrote:again the example of angels that they are not timeless, they are temporal because they take time to think yet they are with God outside the universe. So even outside the universe there is a passage of time, as a result of temporal creation even outside the universe.

I agree to an extent, I just think this word ‘temporal’ is completely inadequate here. Unless you can yet show me how you are coming to this conclusion.

CeT-To wrote:Even if God did annihilate the universe and all creation outside of it too God would still be in time as shown in the videos i posted and my comments earlier.

Haven’t watched the video, sorry, just don’t have time. God would of course still experience duration.

CeT-To wrote:Again with the word " constraint" is an emotionally loaded word, you can just say God liberated his activity with his creation.

“Liberated His activity”? LOL what does that even mean? His activity was un-liberated prior to creation? It’s ironic that it is you putting the ‘constraints’ on God here.

CeT-To wrote:No, God would not be ravished by time lol becoming old and weary is a physical property in time, it is not a necessary property of time in itself, im pretty sure spirits like angels and God don't get old and get wrinkles hahahah, plus God is eternal. These questions and so called assumptions are all answers in the video i posted up lol all im doing is basically repeating it.

LOL. Good, CeT-To. Keep repeating, it helps dialogue.

CeT-To wrote:No, time began since creation and before that there was no time, hence God was timeless, if there was duration before creation then that means there was time and that God had been existing through an infinite amount of time.... which again leads to contradictions like - if there was an infinite amount of time prior to this moment then this moment should have never arrived because it is impossible to go through and "finish" an infinite amount of time or any actual infinites.

I need you to prove this claim. This assumes much from our perspective of time. There was duration in the triune God before creation. Now, prove the claim that duration means God has been existing through an infinite amount of time. God experiencing duration prior to creation does not entail God “existing through an infinite amount of time”, not least because you are using the human concept of time to make your point. Which is of course absurd. Did God act before creation?

DannyM wrote:

1 Kings 8:27
But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built!

CeT-To wrote:I never said he couldn't ... it was just a good vid on the subject, so i don't understand what this is supposed to mean lol it's like stating the obvious.

LOL. I haven’t the time to watch videos, so I answered your question. The question led me where it did, bro.

CeT-To wrote:Annexed? in what sense is God annexed to the universe? Where has it ever been stated that God is dependant on something?

You are saying God is now temporal, correct? God ‘became’ temporal at creation? If God is subject to your notions of time then I’m afraid you have made Him dependent. LOL. Do you see what I am saying?

CeT-To wrote:What has been shown though is the logical effect that if God creates something then since that created thing came to existence time began. Lol if you want to say God is annexed to something then the case here would be logic. Because that's what we are talking about here, logic.

I’m afraid you have not shown this at all, you’ve merely asserted it. God experienced time/duration prior to creation, so how does that work? CeT, I'm asking you to demonstrate that an infinite form of subsistence can be joined to a finite form of subsistence without scaling the infinite down to the finite. This is the fourth time I’ve asked you this overall, bro. LOL. Yes, we are talking logic…

God bless

This article from Rich might be of interest here:

The Extradimensional Nature of God

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/xdimgod.html

Cet stated:

you can refine what you say so that when it does come to engaging with a non believer you will be more equipped.

The last part of his quote is very key!


To me, while it's fun to ponder and speculate about the mysteries of God, the real importance of apologetics is actually two-fold: 1) It helps increase our faith while also erasing the doubts of BELIEVERS - the more one truly understands and knows about scripture, theology, the universe, and what CAN be known about how God has fit these things together in such remarkable, unfathomable complexity, beauty and truth, the greater one's faith is increased; 2) Apologetics can be a tremendous tool when used discerningly to thus impart one's knowledge through its use as a tool for pre-evangelism and opening of the eyes of unbelievers, while also helping build the faith in your fellow believers.

So often I think we Christians can get so wrapped up in deep apologetics and complex theology topics, while missing the big picture of what our objectives should be - especially to unbelievers. We have to use wisdom, discernment and polite, tactful patience. Let people absorb the bits of truth you might offer them, slowly, without overwhelming them. WE are not going to save ANYONE, but if we let God drive, He can us use us a tools precisely as He gifted US TOOLS. There is such a thing as "winning the battle but losing the war." We have to be careful to not come off as pedantic or arrogant. We need to do more listening and observing of unbelievers to understand what their issues and blockages to belief are than be focused upon talking or trying to answer their every single question. As soon as I sense someone is merely asking questions to keep me off balance or chasing ever more pointless "rabbit trails," that is when I pull back.

My point is that talking about issues like time, God's omniscience, etc. is good, but we need to always keep our focus on the WHY of what we are trying to accomplish. Otherwise, we are just another group of eggheads trying to show people (or each other) of how smart we are. And the last time I checked, God isn't too impressed with the most brilliant amongst us.

Last thought here, is that we always need to be mindful that G&S.org is a public forum. A lot of unbelievers come in here out of curiosity or whatever. Last thing we need is for them to see us beating each other up over trivial issues, or losing our witness through wrongful tone and behavior in our debates. I see this all the time, particularly in predestination/free will/God's sovereignty debates.

Oh my goodness Danny i will murder you This is what it feels like from my end.

Danny- " what's 2+2?" Me- " four" Danny- " what's 2+2?" Me- " Four" Danny- " what's 2+2?" Me- " Four!!" Danny- " what's 2+2?" Me- " FOUR!!!"

Danny, watch the videos i posted pls first and that podcast i said before. Then i will answer your "questions" which i have already tho X_X.

Like, i don't find you criticism challenging to what i've been saying because all it is, is a misconception.

DannyM wrote:

CeT-To wrote:Timeless is without time by definition, without the experience of passage of time... i think though you have Eternal in mind, would that be right? Since you can be go from timeless to temporal and still be everlasting eternal.

No it’s not. Timeless simply means not affected by the passage of time. It can also mean eternal, perpetual, everlasting, endless. Where are you getting "without time" from?

CeT-To wrote:I think you are seeing time as a merely physical dimension which it isn't

I’m not. Time isn’t a thing. God is simply outside of our measurements of time. God is non-linear, and we simply perceive things 'linearly'. God is both immanent and transcendent. LOL I think your concept of God is wholly inadequate, bro.

I never said time was a thing... i've been saying the opposite the WHOLE time ><.. why do you keep saying OUR measurement of time when im talking about time as a whole.. i don't care about our measurement what i am talking about is basically time as change and duration in anyway or form. I've never said our measurement of time...

DannyM wrote:

CeT-To wrote:Timeless is without time by definition, without the experience of passage of time... i think though you have Eternal in mind, would that be right? Since you can be go from timeless to temporal and still be everlasting eternal.

No it’s not. Timeless simply means not affected by the passage of time. It can also mean eternal, perpetual, everlasting, endless. Where are you getting "without time" from?

LOL ... "Timeless simply means not affected by passage of time" .... "Where are you getting " without time" from?" ...Time-less. So what you are saying is that God isn't affected by time but time is still there? So maybe the definition of time is where we differ, time would seem to me to be change and duration in anyway or form, change is especially needed in order to say before, now and will be. You could say then " ahhh but God doesn't change" the bible says God's moral character doesn't change so lets get this out of the way, the second person of the trinity has a human nature now along side with his God nature lol i don't need to say much on this as long as i show a little change then that is adequate and makes it possible of course depending on the context. If there is time then God experiences time because only now exist and the past doesnt and the future neither lol just like us we only experience the now . .... Just like us. Lol looks like ima have to highlight the because since you keep saying i never give an explanation hahah.

DannyM wrote:

CeT-To wrote:No, time began since creation and before that there was no time, hence God was timeless, if there was duration before creation then that means there was time and that God had been existing through an infinite amount of time.... which again leads to contradictions like - if there was an infinite amount of time prior to this moment then this moment should have never arrived because it is impossible to go through and "finish" an infinite amount of time or any actual infinites.

I need you to prove this claim. This assumes much from our perspective of time. There was duration in the triune God before creation. Now, prove the claim that duration means God has been existing through an infinite amount of time. God experiencing duration prior to creation does not entail God “existing through an infinite amount of time”, not least because you are using the human concept of time to make your point. Which is of course absurd. Did God act before creation?

What...? again i have shown how there cannot be an infinite amount of time .... ive explained the contradiction Right There! O_O like... right there! I am Not assuming this from our perspective of time ... i keep saying this im talking about any form of time, i Never said merely from our perspective. Time = change and duration in any form ... that is what time means! So i don't know what you are talking about human concept of time or whatever... there is only 1 definition for time - LOL im not basing this on the earth's rotation around the sun for time hahahah that would be human conception at its funniest, in this context. I dunno if God acted before creation the bible doesn't say anything about what God did before creation but if He did then that's when time would have begun because then there would have been a "before" which would be when God did do such and such where now he isn't doing that or only that thing. < you can read a better explanation of that from other comments i wrote before this i don't wanna write the same thing again..

DannyM wrote:

CeT-To wrote:again the example of angels that they are not timeless, they are temporal because they take time to think yet they are with God outside the universe. So even outside the universe there is a passage of time, as a result of temporal creation even outside the universe.

I agree to an extent, I just think this word ‘temporal’ is completely inadequate here. Unless you can yet show me how you are coming to this conclusion.

Why is it inadequate if temporal means it is affected by time? I already have said what it is to be affected by time and its nothing like constricting as you see it re read what i said in past comments likewise i dont wanna repeat again and again here. Lol seems like your beef is you just don't like the conclusion . How i came to this conclusion? why are you asking this if the explanation is right there!! LOL

DannyM wrote:

CeT-To wrote:Again with the word " constraint" is an emotionally loaded word, you can just say God liberated his activity with his creation.

“Liberated His activity”? LOL what does that even mean? His activity was un-liberated prior to creation? It’s ironic that it is you putting the ‘constraints’ on God here.

Watch the videos lol i;m not putting an constraint on God .... it's simple logic bro ... causally prior to time's existence God wasn't doing anything because if he was then time would have began at the moment of initial action. I've been saying this again and again ....

DannyM wrote:

CeT-To wrote:Annexed? in what sense is God annexed to the universe? Where has it ever been stated that God is dependant on something?

You are saying God is now temporal, correct? God ‘became’ temporal at creation? If God is subject to your notions of time then I’m afraid you have made Him dependent. LOL. Do you see what I am saying?

Yes, i am saying God is temporal now and yes he became temporal since creation. My notions of time? lol no. I've already explained this - yeah i see what you are saying and it's a misconception of what this is all saying.

DannyM wrote:

CeT-To wrote:What has been shown though is the logical effect that if God creates something then since that created thing came to existence time began. Lol if you want to say God is annexed to something then the case here would be logic. Because that's what we are talking about here, logic.

I’m afraid you have not shown this at all, you’ve merely asserted it. God experienced time/duration prior to creation, so how does that work? CeT, I'm asking you to demonstrate that an infinite form of subsistence can be joined to a finite form of subsistence without scaling the infinite down to the finite. This is the fourth time I’ve asked you this overall, bro. LOL. Yes, we are talking logic…

you make me want to go Danny hahaha, i haven't been merely asserting, i've provided explanations for everything.. .LOOK it is right THERE . LOL the reason why i haven't answered is because it doesn't make sense to what we are talking about - time isn't a thing or a dimension or whatever it is just change and duration of any form... when we say God is infinite we are talking about his value. LOL in no way does it scale down God's infinite value down to finite X_X.

God bless

Sorry, CeT-To, I'm not responding indepth to that kind of arrogant mockery, it's a waste of my time and effort. You obviously appear to think you own the definitive answer, but you don't. This subject is very far from my field of interest, and yet you still can't manage to persuade me. Perhaps it's your arrogant way of communication? There's no "answer" for me not to like, mate. I'm open to the answer if it is the answer. My view is some kind of divine temporality, since God quite obviously experienced duration before creation. By the way, do I attempt to mock you when you repeatedly don't 'get' my questions? I don't, mate.

And this subject is very far from settled. Here's a link for anyone interested:

http://prosblogion.ektopos.com/docs/Ganssle.pdf

God bless bro

Danny, go ez...

Sorry, CeT-To, Danny does that to me often...


Love you Danny

neo-x wrote:Sorry, CeT-To, Danny does that to me often...


Love you Danny

What, make you want to kill me? Peace, bro

DannyM » Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:00 pm

neo-x wrote:
Sorry, CeT-To, Danny does that to me often...

Love you Danny

What, make you want to kill me? Peace, bro

Lol...I meant this

neo-x wrote:Lol...I meant this

I understand, I can be a stubborn mule I suppose. You, on the other hand, brother, make me rejoice